View source for Help talk:Style guide/Trivia

== New set of guidelines ==
I believe there is a need for a new set of guidelines in relation to Trivia sections. I propose that we discuss here what purpose trivia sections exist for, and what content can be included in them. Opinions of all are welcome. [[User:Seb26|<font color="#0B61A4">'''seb26'''</font>]] [[User talk:Seb26|<span style="font-size:95%;">[talk]</span>]] 05:16, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
:Honest, I'm starting to see the Trivia section being used as a free "put meaningless tidbits here". I honestly don't know what should really go there, as I feel it should just be scrapped out, but that just makes a mess. If anything, it should have information that you would normally not know, such as the L'Etranger bits. --[[User:Vaught|Vaught]] 05:23, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
:: It should be for information that is amusing or helpful, nothing more --[[User:Firestorm|<font color="#FF6600"><tt><big><u>'''Firestorm'''</u></big></tt></font>]] {{mod}} 05:24, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

:There should be no place for rumour, conjecture or unsubstantiated guesswork. This happens a lot when people assume something is a reference to pop culture. If the trivia item contains the words "is likely a reference to", there's already one red flag. Basically, it might be interesting to note that The Sniper with the Bloke's Bucket Hat looks like Henry Blake from M*A*S*H, but you should assume or guess that the hat is in fact a direct reference to it.

:Another thing I think should be avoided are the "X is one of # Y's to have Z". For example, the Hound Dog page used to say "This is one of five hats to add an accessory in addition to the hat itself", then it listed the others. Statements like, "X is the only Y to have Z" should also be avoided.

:One of the major points however should simply be "If it can be fit into another section or page, do so." There is a lot of trivia that could be worked into existing articles. Getting rid of that will go a long way toward cleaning things up. 
-- [[User:Alex2539|Alex2539]] 05:30, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm curious what you guys think about "history" bits that fill up the trivia sections. "X used to do y until [date] patch. It now does z." I think most should go. For example, I think that the nag mode in KOTH's history deserves mention for being interesting and relevant. However, I could care less if a certain weapon made a character's hands disappear for one day in 2008. Opinions? [[User:Subtlefuge|Subtlefuge]] 07:40, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

: I agree. There's no need to mention every old bug that has been patched. There are some that are noteworthy, like the "Overtime" bug you mentioned since that's actually still in the game and its history is itself the explanation for its existence. Also, major gameplay changes should probably still be noted (not that I can think of any at the moment). Otherwise, if you read the item and think "Why should I care?" then it should probably be deleted. -- [[User:Alex2539|Alex2539]] 08:04, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

:: I have attempted to add a 'Previous Changes' section to the weapon articles. Players should be able to quickly look at how the weapon originally worked and come up with their own ideas what the weapon can be used for or how they should respond to it. This should divert some of the trivia additions away to here. I might add a 'Bugs' section as well, with the same idea in mind.--[[User:Focusknock|Focusknock]] 17:28, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

:::We should include use of weasel words [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word]] in the guidelines, it covers most of what we undo and is used on other Wikis--[[User:Markd|<span style="text-shadow:blue 0px 0px 3px;"><font color="#E6CE00"><tt><big><u>'''Markd'''</u></big></tt></font>]] {{mod}}</span> 16:44, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
== Minor Bugs ==
Why are minor bugs considered 'not trivia'? They seem like the exact right kind of thing that should be trivia.
'''[[User:Inkybinky3|<span style="color:pink">Inkybinky3</span>]]'''  <small>- [https://twitch.tv/inkublu <span style="color:black">inku</span><span style="color:#80F4FF">blu</span>]  ([[Message_Wall:Inkybinky3|<span style="color:pink">talk</span>]])</small>-15:35, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
== 'Do not' section ==

This comes across too negative in my opinion. It should not be "DO NOT DO THIS", instead, it should be "This is discouraged". The main  focus should really be on what ''is'' encouraged, i.e. what should be included. [[User:Seb26|<font color="#0B61A4">'''seb26'''</font>]] [[User talk:Seb26|<span style="font-size:95%;">[talk]</span>]] 05:27, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

==Split==
The trivia seems to split into two broad sections one is gameplay notes such as the knife is upside down, its coded as a club not a kukri etc and then eagle feathers are a mark of power the second is trivia the first is related to the game, the second may be mentioned in the comics or merchandise or release blurb. In effect we have its in the game trivia and its in the background stories and articles trivia. These seem like a better split and will aslo remove the this hat is one of only two that ere not actually hats that the civilian wears in game type trivia--[[User:Markd|Markd]] 12:54, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
: I agree. Maybe we should have two sections: Pop-culture references and game universe trivia.  -- [[User:ShunyValdez|ShunyValdez]] 03:34, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
:: Internal and external trivia? --[[User:Firestorm|<span style="text-shadow:orange 0px 0px 3px;"><font color="#FF6600"><tt><big><u>'''Firestorm'''</u></big></tt></font>]] {{mod}}</span> 06:12, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
::: Something like that. But I would prefer other names. Internal and external is too ambigious and can confuse people (which trivia goes to which section). -- [[User:ShunyValdez|ShunyValdez]] 12:04, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
:: "Pop Culture References" is pretty dangerous. People tend to see similarities to things they enjoy whether they're there or not. Because they see it, they label it as a "reference". A reference should be something deliberate by the creators, not a guess by the fans. I like the idea of having a distinction between the two types though. One solution, for the class pages at least, might be to extend the Bio sections. Currently they are just the official ones distributed. It seems to me that most of the in-game trivia pertains to the classes personalities and behaviour, so they could be easily rewritten into paragraph form to fit there. Then, the Trivia sections could be reserved for real-world information. --[[User:Alex2539|Alex2539]] 20:43, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

==Technical Trivia==
The class trivia sections are littered with highly technical information about character models, game files, and other "hammerspeak" tidbits. Although I think this information is useful, and I am not opposed to some sort of highly technical project, I don't think that  the average user cares or needs to know about which classes have exponent textures. [[User:Subtlefuge|Subtlefuge]] 04:30, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

:I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about. Can you give an example? In general though, I'm not opposed to highly technical information, but perhaps if there is enough of it, it could become its own section. Valve has made it clear that community contributions are a large part of TF2, so I think trivia items that give technical details that may be useful for people looking to make hats, maps or whatever should be kept. -- [[User:Alex2539|Alex2539]] 06:11, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

::I think he means something like adding in that the Frontier Justice lost its normal maps during the Polycount update. It's something that probably should be mentioned in the article, but it's not really trivia, and if you don't know what a normal map is, it's lost on you. -- [[User:Balladofwindfishes|Balladofwindfishes]] 12:27, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

== Normal/Developer variants ==

Quite a lot of weapons have trivia stating that there exist [[Normal weapon|Normal weapons]] (whatever that means) and [[developer weapons]] variants of said weapons. I think those are completely useless. Yay or nay? --[[User:CruelCow|CruelCow]] 16:28, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
: completely useless, we'll remove them --[[User:Firestorm|<span style="text-shadow:orange 0px 0px 3px;"><font color="#FF6600"><tt><big><u>'''Firestorm'''</u></big></tt></font>]] {{mod}}</span> 16:29, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

==Some pointers==
Trivia does need cleaning, but not because somebody thinks it's stupid, or they think it's made up, or it makes the article look too big. The guide needs to reflect this. Put in points that suggest where to move certain pieces to other areas, like taking things such as jigglebones, bugs and previous changes and move them to the relevant areas of the article. Suggest to users to add links to blog posts or wiki pages if they need to. Cleanup should not mean decimation.--[[User:Focusknock|Focusknock]] 17:25, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
* Additions to Trivia that are more pertinent elsewhere in the article, or belong in other articles, should be added to those areas. For instance, helpful tips for using [[Your Eternal Reward]] more effectively should be added to the [[Spy strategy#Your Eternal Reward|Spy Strategy]] article instead of a Trivia section.
:Something like that? -[[User:The Neotank|<font color="#FF8C00">'''The Neotank'''</font>]]&nbsp;({{mod}}<small> | [[User talk:The Neotank|Talk]]</small>) [[File:User The Neotank Signeotank.jpg]] 21:23, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

== Trivia Versus Tips ==
I noticed some of the trivia on most of the articles is nothing more than tips. Things like "Frontier Justice does not gain revenge crits from a Dead Ringer Spy activation." That's not trivia (in the same sense as "Frontier Justice was created by the Engineer's Grandfather"), that's a gameplay tip. Shouldn't stuff like that be better suited to either a "tips" section, or better yet worked into the strategy article for the class/weapon? Another example would be the Rocket Jumper, where a trivia bit mentions that you can stop fall damage by shooting a rocket right before landing. That's not trivia, that's a blatent strategy for Rocket Jumping. Just because the Rocket Jumper is used to Rocket Jump doesn't mean it needs rocket jump strategy regulated to trivia. I tried fiing this and it was quickly reverted. -- [[User:Balladofwindfishes|Balladofwindfishes]] 12:36, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
:You do make a point... We'll discuss it. &ndash; [[User:Smashman|<span class="mod">Smashman</span>]]<sub>&nbsp;([[User_talk:Smashman|talk]])</sub> {{mod}} 13:34, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

==Extra criteria==
I'm concerned some users are going around deleting trivia because ''they'' feel it's useless. There's way too much subjectivity involved. I suggest all trivia deletions should be supervised to prevent abuse--<span style="color:purple">'''''Focusknock'''''</span>  [[Help:Group rights|<span class="burbg">s</span>]] 17:36, 6 November 2010 (UTC).
:Who is going to supervise, and ''how'' are they going to do it? ~ <code>[[User:Lhavelund|<font color=red><span style="font-size: 1.2em;">'''lhavelund'''</span></font>]]</code> <sup>([[User_talk:lhavelund|talk]] ▪ [[Special:Contributions/lhavelund|contrib]])</sup> 17:37, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
::Well a lot of us are sitting around in the IRC doing nothing (I know I am), so it wouldn't take much to just take a look at the edit, see if it's ok or not, and undo accordingly.--<span style="color:purple">'''''Focusknock'''''</span>  [[Help:Group rights|<span class="burbg">s</span>]] 17:38, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
:::...so what are you suggesting we do differently? What you're suggesting is already going on, as far as I know. ~ <code>[[User:Lhavelund|<font color=red><span style="font-size: 1.2em;">'''lhavelund'''</span></font>]]</code> <sup>([[User_talk:lhavelund|talk]] ▪ [[Special:Contributions/lhavelund|contrib]])</sup> 17:39, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
::::I've been doing a lot of cuts recently myself. I've been trying to follow the guidelines but the problem is a lot of the 'trivia' is trivia in a loose sense of the word. Feel free to undo any of my edits though. [[User:Moussekateer|Moussekateer]] 17:41, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
:::::The past few edits that I have made have been subject to this as well; unfortunately, subjectivity usually takes the front seat when it comes to a Wiki as everyone has a different perception of what is (and what is not) trivial, and there will always be a few strong-willed individuals who will demonstrate this by editing articles accordingly.  [[User:ButteredToast|ButteredToast]] 19:02, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

== Do not state the obvious ==

"It can easily be assumed hats and miscellaneous items are purely cosmetic."
With the Polycount update this is no longer true. Shouldn't the example be changed?
[[User:Lemon|Lemon]] 22:20, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
:A minor edit could be added to specify that certain items (when worn as part of a set) do grant in-game bonuses. [[User:ButteredToast|ButteredToast]] 19:10, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

== The "obvious" ==

Isn't the term "obvious" way too subjective to be included in the guidelines? Who decides what's "obvious" and what's not? I'm afraid deleting some trivia items just because they're "obvious" to long-time players might be way too "harsh" for the newcomers. (if you get what I mean, excuse me for my English, it's not my main language)

Also I find it ironic how it mentions Hats and Misc items being purely cosmetic as an example when (sadly) it's no longer true even back by the time this article was created... [[User:Stabnrun|Stabnrun]] 01:54, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
:I assume you are referring to the set bonuses. In that case, the hats themselves are still purely cosmetic, it is the entire set that provides the bonus. You could wear just the hat from the set and receive no bonus whatsoever. The hat is purely cosmetic, albeit required for a set. Regardless, that a hat is a part of a set is considered both obvious, and would already be mentioned on the page so it would not be trivia. The example stands. -- [[Image:User Alex2539 Sig.png|47px|link=User:Alex2539|Alex2539]] -- 05:25, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
::The fact is that no matter which way you put it they ARE a condition to the set bonus and if you don't have the hat you won't have the bonus, so they DO have an effect even though it might not always be active. You can't say it's purely cosmetic when you might get a bonus that otherwise you wouldn't get. Anyway this is getting a bit off-topic. [[User:Stabnrun|Stabnrun]] 11:48, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

== Rewrite of the style guide ==

Because so many users are referred to this guide, I felt it was important to get it written more clearly sooner rather than later. That isn't to say it is any more important than the rest of the style guide, just that more people are referred here then any other part of it. I have placed it in my userspace at [[User:Alex2539/Trivia_Style_Guide_proposal]] for now and it is open to comments and modifications. I mostly just expanded on what was already there and took into consideration some of what was said on this talk page. Some of the more important additions in my opinion are the examples. Some of the guidelines can be a little bit vague and it helps to see an actual example of what it means. Some of them only have examples of "Poor trivia" (I avoided the word "bad" deliberately) because there is no simple example of "Good trivia" beyond "not this". I also tried to avoid using examples from the Wall of Shame since I wanted them to be similar to the types of trivia that are commonly added rather than dipping into extremes. What do you guys think? -- [[Image:User Alex2539 Sig.png|47px|link=User:Alex2539|Alex2539]] - {{mod}} <sub>([[User_talk:Alex2539|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Alex2539|contribs]])</sub> -- 08:36, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
:I like most of it, well done. I don't get your Razorback example though. If an item's name or description is a direct pop culture reference, like [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj52wrSksIQ Your Eternal Reward] for instance, I don't see why it shouldn't be included in the trivia section. [[User:Stabnrun|Stab !]] 12:36, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
:: The point of the Razorback example is that it is ''not'' a pop-culture example. Your Eternal Reward is an obvious and admitted reference to Aladdin, but the Razorback/Spider-man connection is only a coincidence. It just so happens that they were named after the same animal and have similar characteristics, but they are not related and the TF2 item certainly does not reference the super villain. It's just a coincidence and not worth mentioning in that article. -- [[Image:User Alex2539 Sig.png|47px|link=User:Alex2539|Alex2539]] - {{mod}} <sub>([[User_talk:Alex2539|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Alex2539|contribs]])</sub> -- 19:30, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

:{{c|Support}}: [[Media:Engineer_cheers05.wav|"Now that there was a ''fine'' piece 'a work."]] --[[User:CruelCow|CruelCow]] {{sta}} <sup>([[User_talk:CruelCow|talk]])</sup> 18:13, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
::{{c|Support}} I agree with you on that we need more examples to be more clear on what constitutes bad trivia. [[User:Moussekateer|Moussekateer]] 18:16, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
:::{{c|Support}} This new version is a definitely big improvement; I particularly applaud the focus to be made on analysing what is good trivia and what is not, as well as accepting subjective problems. If anything, this will help dissuade those intent on removing any and all trivia in order to simply gain edits.--<span style="color:purple">'''''Focusknock'''''</span>  [[Help:Group rights|<span class="burbg">s</span>]] 18:29, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
::::{{c|comment}} Yes, I felt that one of the most important things was to not only say what should count as trivia, but to demonstrate it as well. When you show people something and say "This is what I mean, and here's why..." each guideline becomes a little bit more obvious. There are some that are still going to be tricky due to their subjective natures, such as what is "obvious" and what is "interesting", but hopefully the threshold for disagreement can be narrowed. -- [[Image:User Alex2539 Sig.png|47px|link=User:Alex2539|Alex2539]] - {{mod}} <sub>([[User_talk:Alex2539|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Alex2539|contribs]])</sub> -- 19:30, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
:Random thought: Do the removed trivia lines need to be linked? There's no need to cite that they '''did''' exist, so it really only creates a watered down version of the Wall of Shame. --[[User:CruelCow|CruelCow]] {{sta}} <sup>([[User_talk:CruelCow|talk]])</sup> 03:16, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
::I put the links in as proof that they are in fact real examples, but it's not exactly high up on the priority list and I'm not 100% attached to them. I can understand that for such minor examples we might not want to point fingers at specific members, but I do think it's important that the examples at least are real edits. If others agree then I'm completely okay with removing the links to the trivia. However, I think they would ''all'' have to be removed, good and poor, for consistency's sake. -- [[Image:User Alex2539 Sig.png|47px|link=User:Alex2539|Alex2539]] - {{mod}} <sub>([[User_talk:Alex2539|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Alex2539|contribs]])</sub> -- 06:20, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

:{{C|Neutral}} It's far too extensive. Most editors who add trivia will tl;dr that. I know that we need a rewrite, though. -- [[User:Pilk|Pilk]] <sub>([[User talk:Pilk|talk]])</sub> 18:59, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
::How about adding a [[wikipedia:Template:Nutshell]] to the page? [[User:Stabnrun|Stab !]] 19:29, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
:::No. I'm not going to put up a cheap summary of the page just to cater to people's laziness. If someone doesn't think it's worth their time to read then they will just have to live with all of their edits being removed. If they continuously ignore the guidelines after having been referred to them, they run the risk of being blocked from editing. -- [[Image:User Alex2539 Sig.png|47px|link=User:Alex2539|Alex2539]] - {{mod}} <sub>([[User_talk:Alex2539|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Alex2539|contribs]])</sub> -- 21:05, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
::::This is completely the wrong attitude to have. People get angry because they get confused as to why their edits got reverted, referring them to an essay is not going to fix the issue. -- [[User:Pilk|Pilk]] <sub>([[User talk:Pilk|talk]])</sub> 21:07, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
::::: Have to agree with Pilk, it'd probably be best to have both; one as a detailed reference and one people can look at to get the gist quickly.--[[User:Wilsonator|Wilsonator]] 21:09, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

:::::Well tbh. if somebody is a tl;dr-guy, they're probably wrong at editing a wiki because you have to read A LOT, for example if you want to add trivia to the heavy article, you have to (should) read the entire page to check if it's already in there.<br/>But how about adding a '''in a nutshell''' box like wikipedia does [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith]? Because lets be honest, the current checklist is not very helpful. --[[User:CruelCow|CruelCow]] {{sta}} <sup>([[User_talk:CruelCow|talk]])</sup> 01:36, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
::::::I'm going to cave on this one. CruelCow put up a Nutshell there (while I was out of the house and not looking, no less) and looking at it now, I actually think it kind of works. Maybe it's because the summary is so surprisingly apt. My only grip with it now is that it's not TF2-themed, but I'll get over it. -- [[Image:User Alex2539 Sig.png|47px|link=User:Alex2539|Alex2539]] - {{mod}} <sub>([[User_talk:Alex2539|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Alex2539|contribs]])</sub> -- 03:58, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
:::::::I find it really amusing that I got bashed for suggesting exactly the same thing a couple of paragraphs above. Oh well. [[User:Stabnrun|Stab !]] 19:37, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

== Solving "is a reference to" ==

I think a good way to fix the problem of all the "is a possible reference to" trivia items, rather than deleting them altogether, would be to make a new "Connections" section for connections to reality and other works. Instead of taking the form of "The X is a possible reference to Y, or maybe Z", each item takes the more substantive form "X resembles Y". For instance, rather than saying that the [[Tough guy's toque]] is "a possible reference" to Jayne Cobb's hat, there would be an item under "Connections" stating "This hat resembles the one worn by Jayne Cobb in the television series Firefly." --[[User:STUART|STUART]] 12:57, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
:[[Heavy references]]. But random speculation doesn't even belong there. --[[User:CruelCow|CruelCow]] {{sta}} <sup>([[User_talk:CruelCow|talk]])</sup> 13:14, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
::{{c|nope.avi}} There's really no place for this sort of thing. The connections people make are often tenuous at best and rarely relevant at all to the item. By creating a section like this, you just give everyone free range to add whatever slight similarity they see between one item and another. That's not informative, that's clutter. -- [[Image:User Alex2539 Sig.png|47px|link=User:Alex2539|Alex2539]] - {{mod}} <sub>([[User_talk:Alex2539|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Alex2539|contribs]])</sub> -- 23:14, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

== Jigglebone trivia ==
{{Discussion header|top}}
I'm restarting this discussion, the old one ended as people started re-adding the trivia after Smashman noted that it's trivia worthy - the discussion wasn't properly...discussed; and now there seems to be people battling on both sides.  For reference, the old discussion is here: [[User talk:Nineaxis#Jigglebones]]. -[[User:RJackson|<span class="burbg" style="margin-right:1px;text-shadow: #538237 1px 1px 0px;">RJ</span>]]{{Sta}} 02:34, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

:{{c|oppose}} Copying my opinion over: Adding to this discussion...  who cares if a hat is jiggleboned?  I disagree that it's a noteworthy attribute.  As per the trivia guidelines: "Trivia items should be interesting and/or helpful. Items that satisfy neither of these are not worth mentioning."; I don't think noting whether or not a hat is jiggleboned is interesting nor helpful, I can't even think of a scenario in which somebody would need to know whether or not a hat is jiggleboned.-[[User:RJackson|<span class="burbg" style="margin-right:1px;text-shadow: #538237 1px 1px 0px;">RJ</span>]]{{Sta}} 02:34, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

:{{c|oppose}}: The list at [[Jiggle bones]] is enough. --[[User:CruelCow|CruelCow]] {{sta}} <sup>([[User_talk:CruelCow|talk]])</sup> 02:37, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

:{{c|oppose}} As I said on the Portal Pin page, it shouldn't be added as trivia. [[Jiggle bones]] is a great list already. Even putting that an item may be the only of it's kind to have jigglebones is stretching it. No pun intended. [[User:Fendermcbender|Fendermcbender]] 02:41, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

:{{c|nope}} Restating my opinion from the other discussion: "''There is already a page that is meant to keep track of what is jiggleboned in the game. If jigglebones already have a page then they are no longer trivia. Also, I don't think that trivia should ever be just a description of the item in question; saying that it is jiggleboned is really just saying what an object looks like while it is moving. It's not trivia.''" -- [[Image:User Alex2539 Sig.png|47px|link=User:Alex2539|Alex2539]] - {{mod}} <sub>([[User_talk:Alex2539|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Alex2539|contribs]])</sub> -- 03:24, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
::I don't agree with this. How many pages actually link to [[Jiggle bones]]? Hardly any do. How are people meant to find this list if there are no mentions anywhere? [[User:Seb26|<font color="#0B61A4">'''seb26'''</font>]] [[User talk:Seb26|<span style="font-size:95%;">[talk]</span>]] 06:32, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

:{{c|support}} <nowiki>*unimaginably horrible rageface*</nowiki> -[[User:Shine|<font color="#666666">'''Shine'''</font>]]<nowiki>[</nowiki>{{sta}}<nowiki>]</nowiki> 05:25, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

:{{c|Neutral}}: I think it's not something we should outright ban or allow. There are multiple cases where jigglebone trivia is relatively uninteresting (where the jiggleboning might be obvious), but there also cases where the presence of jigglebones might not be that clear, such as the [[Companion Cube Pin]]; at first glance it doesn't ''look'' like the cube wiggles, but it does. [[User:Seb26|<font color="#0B61A4">'''seb26'''</font>]] [[User talk:Seb26|<span style="font-size:95%;">[talk]</span>]] 06:29, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
::On that note, I feel like I should clarify my opinion a bit. Jigglebones are not ''trivia''. This is not to say that the information doesn't belong on the page at all. It might be worthwhile to add a new section to the infoboxes or something: IsJiggleboned=Yes would show "'''Jiggleboned:''' [[Jiggle bones|Yes]]" otherwise show nothing. At the very ''least'' there could be a category for jiggleboned items. -- [[Image:User Alex2539 Sig.png|47px|link=User:Alex2539|Alex2539]] - {{mod}} <sub>([[User_talk:Alex2539|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Alex2539|contribs]])</sub> -- 07:00, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

:{{c|oppose}}: Unfortunately the statement by Smashman was a blanket statement without actually considering previous discussion. I don't think anything should change about the way we handle jiggle bone trivia right now. -- [[User:Pilk|Pilk]] <sub>([[User talk:Pilk|talk]])</sub> 07:08, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
:{{c|oppose}}: I agree there is a lack of links to the [[Jiggle bones]] article. A compromise would be to put a link to the Jiggle bones article under the 'See also' section. [[User:Moussekateer|Moussekateer]] 13:34, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
:{{c|oppose}}: It doesn't belong in the trivia. Adding the Jigglebones article to the "See Also" section isn't also plausible since jigglebones aren't even mentioned in most of the item articles at all (it would be unnecessary spam I think). On the other hand adding a "Jigglebones: Yes" line to the infobox (as suggested by Alex2539) would be dead simple and efficient. [[User:Stabnrun|Stab !]] 19:00, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
:{{c|oppose}}: Do we need to mention in the trivia of every item that uses phong shading that it uses phong shading? Mentioning jigglebones just seems like pointless information. Having the jigglebone article is fine, but it doesn't need to spill into every single article that has jigglebones [[User:Balladofwindfishes|Balladofwindfishes]] 00:42, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

:{{c|oppose}}: Stating an item has Jigglebones could clear up some confusion. However, if the confused people play the game they'll see it up close. If they can't tell when it's in their face then it's on them. It just seems now that adding that an item has Jigglebones to the trivia list is so people can rack up their edit count. [[User:Kenshiro|Kenshiro]] 05:35, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

:{{c|oppose}} I don't find jiggle bones notable at all, and it shouldn't be in any hat/weapon article unless it holds some significance. [[User:FlotsamX|FlotsamX]] 05:40, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
:{{c|nope}} It is definitely not trivia-worthy, but I agree with [[Image:User Alex2539 Sig.png|47px|link=User:Alex2539|Alex2539]] - {{mod}} in relation to adding a section for "Is Jiggleboned = Yes/no."  --[[User:Fragment of Nothing|Fragment of Nothing]] 10:57, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
:{{c}} Perhaps it's not Trivia worthy, but I think it should be noted somewhere in the article as it's enlightening. Just my 2 cents. &ndash; [[User:Smashman|<font color=#507D2A>Smashman</font>]]<sub>&nbsp;([[User_talk:Smashman|talk]])</sub> {{sta}} 13:41, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

:{{c|oppose}} I think that the Jigglebone information is fine as it is in [[Jiggle Bones]]. &ndash; [[User:Shawnathan|Shawnathan]] <small>([[user_talk:Shawnathan|talk]])</small> 15:00, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

:{{c|Oppose}} People are making way too big of a deal out of jigglebones. It's an engine feature, a basic attribute of a model's design that allows it to behave like it would be expected to. It's not notable at all. While uncommon at first, because there were few hats, and few hats needed it, now many do and I don't see why people are still amazed by the presence of jigglebones on an item.

:I'd compare jigglebone trivia to trivia stating that an item is reflective. It's obvious, we can see it for ourselves, it's what you would expect from the item in question. Why take note of it? -- [[User:Nineaxis|<span style="color:#507D2A;font-weight:bold;font-family:
'Trebuchet MS'">Nineaxis</span>]] {{mod}} [[File:User Nineaxis sig duck.png|12px]] 18:34, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
{{Discussion header|end}}
{{C|Result of discussion:}} [[Jiggle bones]] is the best place to note which items have jiggle bones or not. Stating and item has jiggle bones is not worthy of trivia. -- [[User:Pilk|Pilk]] <sub>([[User talk:Pilk|talk]])</sub> 22:43, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

== This creator also made x trivia ==

I've noticed a widely inconsistent use of this trivia. It's mentioned on some pages, and not on others. Further, we're at a point in TF2 now where a creator could have created a dozen+ items, and I feel like this sort of trivia has long overstayed its welcome. Where do we draw the line? Do we list all the weapons Royzo or Laro has made on every single item they made? The list of self-made items, plus the links on the infobox to the creator's backpack seems like plenty for users who are curious as to what else the creator has made. Thoughts? [[User:Balladofwindfishes|Balladofwindfishes]] 18:40, 24 July 2011 (PDT)
: Perhaps instead of linking to the creator's self made weapon of each weapon that was community contributed it can go to a Wiki page that lists all community creators and what they've created?  I have to agree, this particular type of trivia is more trivial than trivia.  [[User:Thenyproject|Thenyproject]] 18:50, 24 July 2011 (PDT)
:: We already have a list of all the self-made items and who made them, [[List of Self-Made item owners]]. That more than suffices.  [[User:Balladofwindfishes|Balladofwindfishes]] 18:54, 24 July 2011 (PDT)
::: Then it seems like a good choice to me to remove it from the trivia pages for weapons/hats that have creators that have made 2+ things.  [[User:Thenyproject|Thenyproject]] 19:05, 24 July 2011 (PDT)
:::: Yea, I want to remove them, but I'd like to have some more input, maybe from a mod about this. [[User:Balladofwindfishes|Balladofwindfishes]] 05:20, 25 July 2011 (PDT)

== Need a revision for the "Not Trivia" Subsection ==

It is fine in quality, just the specific example refers to an issue with 2 misc items being unusuable simultaneously, as this is no longer the case, it should be fixed.
My two cents [[User:Darkid|≥Darkid≤]] 09:13, 9 January 2012 (PST)

== Previous Changes ==

"If it is a statement on the way an item once functioned, then it should be placed in the Previous changes section of that page." 
This is mentioned here, but I don't think it exists. Has someone tried implemented a previous changes section? [[User:Upgrade|Upgrade]] 18:11, 8 March 2012 (PST)

== Hijack ==

Why does steam only give you one hijack undo? I recently got hijacked and got my stuff back. Steam sadi that I only get one undo, but I beive somenoe still has my password. Be aware of this. If you get hijacked try to move your stuff to a new account or else you might not get it back.
[[User:Johnmail1235|Johnmail1235]] 16:13, 4 December 2012 (PST)
:That is a steam issue, not a TF2 one. Besides, wouldn't you change your password once you got back into your account? --'''[[User:Piemanmoo|Piemanmoo]]''' 16:20, 4 December 2012 (PST)

== Not Trivia Stereotypes/Community Figures. ==

I believe that we should clarify that in the '''"What is not trivia"''' section that Trivia can't be based on stereotypes or what community figures say, i know its kinda blatantly obvious, but some people don't get it and i've seen a couple of revisions about stereotypes/what community figures say. [[File:User MrJohnson Signature.png|link=User:MrJohnson]] [[User:MrJohnson|MrJohnson]] ([[User talk:MrJohnson|talk]]) 21:01, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

== Adding a point about trivia regarding the community being invalid ==

I have read the article a few times, and, to me, the things that come the closest to explaining why trivia regarding the community, like "The Chicken Kiev has also been referred as the Pootis Bird by many fans" or "This cosmetic is know one of the most popular cosmetic in the community just because how cursed it looks" (two invalid bits of trivia removed from articles), are "[[Irrelevant|Trivia should be ''relevant'' facts about the item in question]]" and "[[XofY|Trivia should not state how a characteristic of an item relates to the characteristics of others]]". However, neither has examples regarding the community - the former's talks about a Spiderman villain, and the latter's examples are about connecting one item to one or more other items.

I think a point ''specifically'' talking about why/how community-related trivia that is more about the community and less about the article's subject - as in how the subject was received by the community (examples: see above) rather than how the community has influenced or served as basis for the subject (example: how the [[Pyro Shark]] is based on [[Glossary of player terms#Pyroshark|Pyrosharking]]) - is invalid would be helpful for explaining to people why it is invalid. Having it listed somewhere would make it seem more official as well, rather than "just a mod's opinion", as I imagine some people could see it ("Oh, yeah? Where ''does'' it say that's invalid trivia?"). - [[User:BrazilianNut|BrazilianNut]] ([[User talk:BrazilianNut|talk]]) 19:40, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
:I support this. Not much more I can say. Specifically mention how it should be the basis of the item (like Pyro Shark) and not something that came after.<br>[[User:GrampaSwood|GrampaSwood]] ([[User talk:GrampaSwood|talk]]) 19:49, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
:: '''Trivia should not be about community popularity of an item, including popular use or nicknames.''' Such facts are [[Misplaced|better placed]] in [[Community fads]] or the [[Glossary of player terms]]. [[User:Mikado282|<span style="font-family: Impact"><font color="B8383B">M</font><font color="424F3B"> I</font><font color="694D3A"> K</font><font color="E7B53B"> A</font><font color="803020"> D</font><font color="B88035"> O </font></span><span style="font-family: Arial "><font color="70B04A"><small>🦃</small>🦃🦃🦃🦃<small>🦃  🦃🦃  🦃🦃</small></font></span>]] ([[User_talk:Mikado282|'''''talk''''']]) ([[User:Mikado282/Help Wanted!|'''''Help Wanted!''''']]) 06:40, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
:::'''Trivia should not be about community takes on the article's subject.''' Things like popularity, common nicknames, and [[community fads]] are the community's response to the subject, and do not affect the subject itself.
:::[[User:BrazilianNut|BrazilianNut]] ([[User talk:BrazilianNut|talk]]) 19:10, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
:::: I would add, "This is distinct from the situation of acceptable Trivia where Community response to other items or game elements has influenced the subject of the article (e.g., [[Pyroshark]])." [[User:Mikado282|<span style="font-family: Impact"><span style="background:red"><font color="ff0000">.</font><font color="004000">'''🦌🦌🦌🦌🎅 M I K 🎄 D O 282'''</font><font color="ff0000">.</font></span></span><span style="font-family: Arial "><font color="00ff00"> <small>❄</small>❄❄❄❄<small>❄ ❄❄  ❄❄</small></font></span>]] ([[User_talk:Mikado282|'''''talk''''']]) ([[User:Mikado282/Help Wanted!|'''''Help Wanted!''''']]) 19:31, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
:::::'''Examples:
:::::'''Good trivia:''' The name of this item refers to the playstyle of a [[Glossary_of_player_terms#Pyroshark|Pyroshark]], in which a Pyro hides with the [[Neon Annihilator]] in water and attacks enemies that enter it. (''from [[Pyro Shark]]'')
:::::This trivia talks about the subject's origin and basis. Since it was based on something from the community, that means the community has had direct impact over the subject.

:::::...''Or''...

:::::'''Good trivia:''' ''The Insult That Made a "Jarate Master" Out of Sniper'' marked the first appearance of [[Saxton Hale]]. At the time, Saxton Hale was a one-shot gag, but later proved popular with the community and became a notable figure related to ''Team Fortress 2''. (''from [[Comics]]'')
:::::This trivia talks about how the community's reception of Saxton Hale resulted in Valve giving him a bigger role in the Team Fortress 2 universe.

:::::I prefer the second one. The Pyro Shark trivia is a simple case of "This item is based on X", which is not different from "This item is based on [character] from [character's origin]" - it just so happens that the basis is something from the community. Saxton Hale, however, is ''not'' a community creation, but it's thanks to the community that he is what he is now.


'''Trivia should not be solely about the community's take on the subject.''' Things like popularity, common nicknames, and [[community fads]] are the community's response to the subject, and do not affect the subject itself. This is distinct from the situation of acceptable Trivia in which community response ''has'' influenced the subject.
:'''Examples:'''
<blockquote>'''Good trivia:''' ''The Insult That Made a "Jarate Master" Out of Sniper'' marked the first appearance of [[Saxton Hale]]. At the time, Saxton Hale was a one-shot gag, but later proved popular with the community and became a notable figure related to ''Team Fortress 2''. (''From [[Comics]]'') <br />
In this instance, the community's reception of Saxton Hale had a direct impact on his role and on the ''Team Fortress 2'' lore.</blockquote>

<blockquote>'''Poor trivia:''' This cosmetic is know one of the most popular cosmetic in the community just because how cursed it looks.{{sic}} (''Removed from [[BINOCULUS!]]'') <br />
The item's popularity among the community has not affected it or the game in any way.</blockquote>

:What do you guys think? - [[User:BrazilianNut|BrazilianNut]] ([[User talk:BrazilianNut|talk]]) 04:37, 7 December 2019 (UTC) (PS: I added "{{sic}}" to the poor trivia because of the many mistakes in it)

== Comics Notes&Trivia formatting ==

We have been working on consistently formatting Notes&Trivia sections on the Comics. The format is specific to Comics since so much of the observations made are specific to pages. It used to be that the page was mentioned at the beginning of a point, at the end, in-between, or not at all. Moreover, the points usually had no organized order. 

The general for format we have been using is 
* use glossary labels rather than headings for structure (so as to not pollute the TOC)
* lead the sections with general points having no specific page, structured as needed with glossary label indentation
* order the page-specific points from cover to back
Format: 

<big>Notes/Trivia</big>
* general blah-blah
;Cover
* cover blah-blah
* more cover blah-blah
;Page X
* blah-blah for stuff on Page X
;Pages Y to Z 
* blah-blah for stuff on Pages Y to Z

<big>So,</big>
# How has that been working for you?
# Should this formatting be added to any style guide?
[[User:Mikado282|<span style="font-family: Impact"><font color="db9c1f">''' M I K A D O 282 '''</font></span>
<span style="font-family: Arial "><font color="70B04A"><small>🦃</small>🦃🦃🦃🦃<small>🦃  🦃🦃  🦃🦃</small></font></span>]]
([[User_talk:Mikado282|'''''talk''''']]) ([[User:Mikado282/Help Wanted!|'''''Help Wanted!''''']]) 23:27, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

== Notes versus Trivia ==

:''This is related to discussion of the recent XofY tag on ''Meet the Spy''; see [[Talk:Meet the Spy#Notes versus Trivia]]'' 

Somewhere along the way of cleaning up Trivia, I noticed a (every?) Comics pages having a separate Notes section (and Item pages for items having not so obvious technical facts not (yet?) covered elsewhere in the page).
 
The point of a separate Notes section, as I have seen and applied it, is to provide a place for recording particular notable and/or useful information about media contents (comics/movies/soundtracks) that are very standard for us to include "[[w:Above_the_fold#Below_the_fold|below the fold]]", but doesn't conform to Trivia rules. Usually, these are observations, but cross-issue or cross media observations, or they are page to page continuity error observations. But, Notes is not meant as a way for contributors to escape conforming to other Trivia rules. 

Note, this is different for the present state of many Movie pages, which seem to have started out with a Notes section, which have really been just a disorganized section with mix of valid Trivia and lots of [[observation]]s. 

None of this concept is presently covered in any style guide, IIRC. Should it be?

Disjoint Consideration:

"This is the first mention of <class's> name." "This is the first Valve-made TF2 short to feature Miss Pauling, and the second ..." Technically, these [[XofY]] as far as I can understand the concept. Given that, I haven't decided whether such points are Trivia (in spite of XofY) or Notes.

Your thoughts? Has the development of Notes vs. Trivia been effective?

[[User:Mikado282|<span style="font-family: Impact"><font color="db9c1f">''' M I K A D O 282 '''</font></span>
<span style="font-family: Arial "><font color="70B04A"><small>🦃</small>🦃🦃🦃🦃<small>🦃  🦃🦃  🦃🦃</small></font></span>]]
([[User_talk:Mikado282|'''''talk''''']]) ([[User:Mikado282/Help Wanted!|'''''Help Wanted!''''']]) 00:49, 9 November 2020 (UTC) 01:11, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

== What is defined as a reference? ==
Does a reference count as a reference if it was made as a reference after it was made? Might sound confusing, but consider [[Graveyard]]'s reference to a TV show. It wasn't a reference to begin with, but then was "made" into a reference after they noticed a similarity. Is it really a reference in this case? I'd argue against this, as the original idea/intent didn't have anything to do with the reference.<br>[[User:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">GrampaSwood</font>]] ([[User talk:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">talk</font>]]) 07:37, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

: This is a common enough case of a well-known old idiom being referenced in the game, but because the idiom is old and well-known, there are many independent references in common culture, but even so the game is ''often'' not referring to any of those. B referring to A and C also referring to A  ''does not'' imply B referred to C. I see nothing in the sign that refers the the TV Show, but clearly the sign exist only because of the idiom;  "[[wikt:pushing up daisies|pushing up daisies]]" is an idiom for "being dead and buried".
:* Existing Policy: "Trivia should be ... be facts." The sign simply ''does not'' refer to the show, therefor the present Trivia is not a fact. 
:** Because it is not a fact, potentially [[speculation]], the present Trivia should be removed. QED
:** However, maybe the artist really did refer to the show, in that there would need to be a non-broken citation.
:* Also, the ''idiom reference'' is Trivia a about a company sign. 
:** Trivia about a sign on a map usually does not belong on the map page.
:** The sign ''could'' be added to List of companies, with the reference to the idiom or citation.
: [[User:Mikado282|<span style="font-family: Impact"><font color="38F3AB">''' M I K A D O 282 '''</font></span><span style="font-family: Arial "><font color="70B04A">''' <small>🎃</small>🎃🎃🎃🎃<small>🎃  🎃🎃  🎃🎃</small>  '''</font></span>]] <small>([[User_talk:Mikado282|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Mikado282|contribs]])</small> ([[User:Mikado282/Help Wanted!|'''''Help Wanted!''''']]) 12:09, 15 October 2021 (UTC) 

:: OK, after fixing the link, I more clearly see the question.
::* Even as stated by Diva Dan, the real reference is to the cliché, not to the television show. AFAICT, no aspect of the sign or building shows any aspect related to the TV show.
::* It belongs in [[List of companies]] (sign extracted from game files).
::* FWIW, the window boxes have poppies, not daisies. [[w:Poppy#Symbolism|Poppies have long been used as a symbol of sleep, peace, and death.]]
:: [[User:Mikado282|<span style="font-family: Impact"><font color="38F3AB">''' M I K A D O 282 '''</font></span><span style="font-family: Arial "><font color="70B04A">''' <small>🎃</small>🎃🎃🎃🎃<small>🎃  🎃🎃  🎃🎃</small>  '''</font></span>]] <small>([[User_talk:Mikado282|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Mikado282|contribs]])</small> ([[User:Mikado282/Help Wanted!|'''''Help Wanted!''''']]) 03:17, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

== Trivia about the object rather than the item ==

I have seen plenty of trivia entries that go into detail about the object or its origins, rather than the item itself.

For example, the first entry in the [[Blighted Beak#Trivia|Blighted Beak Trivia]] currently goes on about the history of beak masks, how they were used by plague doctors, how they would fill the beaks of these masks with fragrant stuff, how this would sometimes (but not always) work, etc. '''None''' of it is related to the item; it is all about the object the item is.

I think it would be nice to include that trivia should be about the item, not about the object the item is. If people want to learn more about this type of hat or that kind of shirt, then let them click the Wikipedia link in the first paragraph of the article or in the trivia entry itself (and if there's no Wikipedia link, then let them do their own research). This is the '''Team Fortress''' Wiki, not the Hats Wiki, nor the Masks Wiki, nor the Military Vehicles Wiki... - [[User:BrazilianNut|BrazilianNut]] ([[User talk:BrazilianNut|talk]]) 13:27, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

:The first guideline already says ''Trivia should be relevant facts about the item in question''. What you describe pretty much b(r)eaks this guideline (Get it? Because Blighted Beak). Some history about how the item is fine, but one or two sentences are fine.<br>[[User:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">GrampaSwood</font>]] ([[User talk:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">talk</font>]]) 21:59, 23 December 2021 (UTC)


: In a word, "Yikes!"
: All of those TVIOs should be cut down to two sentences!
: Link [[w:Plague doctor costume]].
: [[User:Mikado282|<span style="font-family: Impact"><font color="db9c1f">''' M I K 🎄 D O 1 8  Ho Ho Ho '''</font><font color="ff0000"><sup> .</sup></font></span><span style="font-family: Calibri "><font color="00ff00"><small>🦌</small>🦌🦌🦌🦌🎅</font></span>]]<!-- -- --> <small> ([[User:Mikado282/Contact Mikado282|Contact Mikado282 (SM)]] | [[Special:Contributions/Mikado282|'''''contribs''''']]) ([[User:Mikado282/Help Wanted!|'''''Help Wanted!''''']]) </small> 03:21, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

== Trivia about the object rather than the item II ==

I would add that it should be sufficient to state somewhere, Trivia or lead and/or provide enough linkage for the reader to understand the appropriateness of the item to the character.

Rereading the topic, it looks like I volunteered to "fix" it.

I see now, though, that the OP was in response to reversion of an edit that removed the trivia "about the object".  

Maybe more later.

[[User:Mikado282|<span style="font-family: Impact"><font color="db9c1f">''' M I K A D O 282 '''</font></span><span style="font-family: Arial "><font color="00ff00"> <small>⊙</small>⊙⊙⊙⊙<small>⊙ ⊙⊙  ⊙⊙</small></font></span>]] <!-- -- 
--> <small> ([[User:Mikado282/Contact Mikado282|Contact Mikado282 (SM)]]) | ([[Special:Contributions/Mikado282|'''''contribs''''']]) ([[User:Mikado282/Help Wanted!|'''''Help Wanted!''''']]) </small> 12:34, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

== Digging deeper. ==

"Gun fans" is not a particularly accurate or helpful term.

"History buff" or "old fart" might be more accurate, but are still dismissive.

I don't necessarily want this to be about the [[Shovel]], but it is all I have time before work to use as an example. 

The statement "The Shovel is based on the [[w:Entrenching_tool#World_War_II_folding_designs|U.S. Army M-1943 entrenching tool.]]" could very well be absolutely true, and there are sound, historical reasons to make this a melee weapon for Valve's characterization of Soldier, but where the heck are you going to get a RS citation out of Valve?

Remember, I am only a little older than the silverbacks that created ''TF2''. As I mentioned to Yossef, these things were all over the place in 1968. They were abundant war surplus items and are now collectables. When Dutch Elm Disease killed all of the trees around the playground (c. 1968-1970), the principal handed very similar (but ''post-war'', too late for Soldier's character) M-1951s out to us kids to dig up the stumps. As we dug, the stumps became foxholes and dirt clods became grenades ..., some of us got spanked for that, some of us became ''Doom'' and ''TF2'' developers.

I think the wiki looses something generational when the origins of the items are not mentioned. I have mentioned that much more inane observations are included in most of the item leads. I get it that without citation, mentioning the shovel's historic U.S. cultural relevance in trivia could be tagged [[speculation]], but I think clearer mention in the lead would be the better way. "The item is a stylized folding shovel of the [https://equipment.fandom.com/wiki/M-1943_Entrenching_Tool type developed in WWII for U.S. solders] to use both for digging and as [[w:Entrenching_tool#World_War_II_folding_designs|ancillary weapons]]."

I will try to expand this to the broader topic, but another night. 

P.S. Thanks to the topic, I now finally understand why our school's shovels had the folding pick attachment that always has seemed missing on Soldiers Shovel. It is because the 1943 WWII version didn't have the pick, and so, the pick would be anachronistic to the character. ''"Mystery solved!"''

[[User:Mikado282|<span style="font-family: Impact"><font color="db9c1f">''' M I K A D O 282 '''</font></span><span style="font-family: Arial "><font color="00ff00"> <small>⊙</small>⊙⊙⊙⊙<small>⊙ ⊙⊙  ⊙⊙</small></font></span>]] <!-- -- 
--> <small> ([[User:Mikado282/Contact Mikado282|Contact Mikado282 (SM)]]) | ([[Special:Contributions/Mikado282|'''''contribs''''']]) ([[User:Mikado282/Help Wanted!|'''''Help Wanted!''''']]) </small> 13:28, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

:The issue for this is that here have been several times where people "correct" it to a gun they think looks more alike due to several reasons. It's better to avoid all of that + possible speculation by simply playing it's a stylised weapon. Linking it in the way you suggested (as in, calling it "shovel of the type developed in WW2 for U.S. soldiers") but linking to a specific one anyways is just indirectly saying it's inspired by that, which shouldn't be done either. Overall, not a huge amount of value is lost if we don't say the specific type of weapon.<br>[[User:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">GrampaSwood</font>]] ([[User talk:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">talk</font>]]) 13:58, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

::Understand, I am not a gun or weapon researcher; the information on the TF2 weapons are very easy to come  by in most cases.
:: "stylised" IMO, that is generally unnecessary and undefinable, and therefore, I think, not useful; because under the ''TF2'' art style, everything is stylized.  But even then, there are Valve items that are so historically detailed, like the Shovel, that it is in fact speculation to say it is "stylized."  (Wait! It is missing the pair of lashing holes.
::Why even have " It is a hand-held entrenching tool with a splintered handle." "Splintered" is observational, and as you say, where is the proof that it is an entrenching tool?
:: ''"if we don't say the specific type of weapon"'' Why even state it is a specific type of tool? Where is the proof of that?
:: '' linking to a specific one'' Instead of even mentioning the M-43, suppose we link to an [http://sharky-fourbees.blogspot.com/2016/03/model-1951-us-folding-shovel_20.html array of U.S. shovels] that include AFAIK the only one that looks like the Shovel. Wow, that's actually a very good site, but just three U.S. Shovels!
:: Contrast the Short Stop where the developer identified specific weapons as models, picking and choosing parts, yet the origins of the different parts are identifiable, especially to dissuade the original editor's notion that it was a "pepper box"
:: I will point out that the Nazis invented the folding mechanism, but the blade has easy differences, and why would Valve give Soldier a Nazi shovel?
:: The art of Valve's Shovel is actually ''very'' specific.
:: If you were interested, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERXHDRphM2Q here is an array WWII E-tools]. Maybe this would work for a link?
:: The state military cemetery uses the IRL Shovel model in the graveside service. Yes, we buried Dad last year with the cemetery's IRL Soldier's WWII US Army shovel. 
:: "This item is similar to entrenching tools issued to U.S. Solders and Marines in WWII." The WP WWII entrenching tools section has only the M43, but not a good picture.
:: [[User:Mikado282|<span style="font-family: Impact"><font color="db9c1f">''' M I K A D O 282 '''</font></span><span style="font-family: Arial "><font color="00ff00"> <small>⊙</small>⊙⊙⊙⊙<small>⊙ ⊙⊙  ⊙⊙</small></font></span>]] <!-- -- 
--> <small> ([[User:Mikado282/Contact Mikado282|Contact Mikado282 (SM)]]) | ([[Special:Contributions/Mikado282|'''''contribs''''']]) ([[User:Mikado282/Help Wanted!|'''''Help Wanted!''''']]) </small> 02:33, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

::: My apologies GrampaSwood, I would collapse my preceding post if I had the technical competence. I was out of control.
::: I did just this morning look again at the original post on this (SMG == MAT-49), maybe my I don't have the reflex on that edit as I don't know the weapon. I only glanced at the edit war to know you most likely had matters in hand. I do understand and appreciate your point that it is very easy for a large amount of weak speculation points to be posted. I have removed a few such things myself. You know that I do give partiality to conveying the history that ''TF2'' tributes. When the page was ported from the old wiki in 2010, the M-1943 was already mentioned. Precedence is not everything, but you can appreciate the difficulty of holding a treasured M-1943 and being told it doesn't look just like Soldiers shovel, and wearing issued US tanker boots and being told they don't look just like Mantreads. 
::: [[User:Mikado282|<span style="font-family: Impact"><font color="db9c1f">''' M I K A D O 282 '''</font></span><span style="font-family: Arial "><font color="00ff00"> <small>⊙</small>⊙⊙⊙⊙<small>⊙ ⊙⊙  ⊙⊙</small></font></span>]] <!-- -- 
--> <small> ([[User:Mikado282/Contact Mikado282|Contact Mikado282 (SM)]]) | ([[Special:Contributions/Mikado282|'''''contribs''''']]) ([[User:Mikado282/Help Wanted!|'''''Help Wanted!''''']]) </small> 10:11, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

::::The point of calling it "stylised" is because it's made to fit the TF2 artstyle, it's not speculative because it does not look like a realistic shovel. As for your point on "splintered" being observational, that's completely okay. Observation is only not allowed in trivia, the intro of the paragraph serves to give a description of whatever item is being talked about. As for it being an entrenching tool and where the proof of that is, it's literally called "shovel", there's no proof needed there. As for a link, just a wikipedia link to entrenching tool will do.<br>[[User:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">GrampaSwood</font>]] ([[User talk:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">talk</font>]]) 10:58, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

::::{{info}} I agree with Gramps, by naming adding “stylized”, it already implies that the item in question was made in order to fir the style of tf2. Some items can be inspired by real world, but because an item looks “obvious” to some people, it does not mean that the creator took inspiration from any real world scenario. A good example is the [[Death Stare]], although that the item resembles the protagonist of MediEvil, the creator confirmed that originally it wasn’t and that its just mere coincidence. I prefer people providing any sort of proof whenever they refer that an item x resembles or looks like y, just to avoid any future misinformations and be as much accurate as possible, since any resemblances could be just coincidental, yet again, as Gramps mentioned, there is no lost value if the user can’t find any proof and does not include it, either as Trivia or in the item’s description. [[User:Yossef|Yossef]] | ''[[User talk:Yossef|Talk]]'' | ''[[Special:Contributions/Yossef|Contributions]]'' 20:00, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

::::: Huh, never noticed the unfolding animation when equiping?!?!?! So, I would gratefully appreciate your patience for another go at the lead: 
::::: "Shovel" clearly doesn't does not mean "entrenching tool", which as you have seen is a specific military term. It is >only< the modeled features of the item that suggest that it is a military entrenching tool: 
::::: (a) a short handle and small blade for portability and for perfect utility when digging a foxhole ''while you are hidding in it'' 
::::: (b) the hinged blade can be set in various positions, as a shovel, a hoe/adze, or collapsed for packing (see the item's animation)
::::: (c) its unfolding action is ''specifically animated'' in the game (someone once posted, "it can't be a real shovel, it is floppy rubber") 
::::: (d) the click on unfolding is not unlike the actual sounds these shovels make at the hinge 
::::: (e) yes, the thing does "barely dig holes", unless someone is shooting at you and their perfomance greatly improves. No really, in peace time, they are rather frustrating to use, 
::::: (f) the barrel nut on the model always loosens. 
::::: '''"It has features of the [[w:Entrenching_tool#World_War_II_folding_designs|folding type of entrenching tools]] developed for digging foxholes and for hand-to-hand combat in WWII: It has a short wooden handle with a splintered end. The blade is hinged to the handle, and the weapon makes an ''unfolding'' animation with a metalic click whenever Solder draws it. Two rivets attach the blade to the stamped metal bracket of the hinge. Below the hinge is a barrel nut (normally used for locking the blade in a position). All metal parts are painted grey, but some paint on the blade has been scratched or has worn away."'''
::::: [[User:Mikado282|<span style="font-family: Impact"><font color="db9c1f">''' M I K A D O 282 '''</font></span><span style="font-family: Arial "><font color="00ff00"> <small>⊙</small>⊙⊙⊙⊙<small>⊙ ⊙⊙  ⊙⊙</small></font></span>]] <!-- -- 
--> <small> ([[User:Mikado282/Contact Mikado282|Contact Mikado282 (SM)]]) | ([[Special:Contributions/Mikado282|'''''contribs''''']]) ([[User:Mikado282/Help Wanted!|'''''Help Wanted!''''']]) </small> 04:26, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

{{outdent|5}}So I'm not entirely sure anymore what the point here is, if you really want to avoid calling it an "entrenchment tool" because of some weird point you're trying to prove then go ahead but I have legitimately lost the point of this conversation.<br>[[User:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">GrampaSwood</font>]] ([[User talk:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">talk</font>]]) 10:38, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

: I must be a poor communicator. If anything, I was trying to express that "entrenchment tool" would be the way to go. My intended "weird point" is that the model itself is ''only'' evidence that the model represents a WWII entrenchment tool. "Shovel" in no way implies "entrenchment tool"; "entrenchment tools" are military tools that usually have a shovel part, but most shovels are not entrenchment tools.
:So, (I think) this returns us to the basic issue and disagreement. Except for the model, there is no citable evidence that the item is any sort of military equipment appropriate to Soldier's character.
: The proposed description was in no way meant to be sarcastic, with no intention to "avoid calling" it an entrenchment tool. If anything, my research for this discussion has me seeing "folding entrenchment tool" as better than M43, and the description above is a sincere proposal for the item's page, misplaced as it may be in this discussion. 
: But, as I am struggling to communicate, this now goes back to the basic question at hand for Trivia policy. The Shovel's appearance (with animation) is still the only basis for calling it a "folding entrenchment tool". As I understand, the standard for deletion being enforced is, in general, "the thing ''cannot speak'' for itself", meaning that the items in the game may not be used on the wiki as evidence of what they are or represent,  even in the Lead.
: [[User:Mikado282|<span style="font-family: Impact"><font color="db9c1f">''' M I K A D O 282 '''</font></span><span style="font-family: Arial "><font color="00ff00"> <small>⊙</small>⊙⊙⊙⊙<small>⊙ ⊙⊙  ⊙⊙</small></font></span>]] <!-- -- 
--> <small> ([[User:Mikado282/Contact Mikado282|Contact Mikado282 (SM)]]) | ([[Special:Contributions/Mikado282|'''''contribs''''']]) ([[User:Mikado282/Help Wanted!|'''''Help Wanted!''''']]) </small> 13:02, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

::The reason it got removed is because it had caused quit some controversy recently, including an edit war or two. The whole issue is that the item speaking for itself is causing these arguments, because one person might think the gun looks like one IRL weapon, while someone else might think it looks a lot more like another one. Arguing about whether or not the Shovel is an entrenchment tool is unproductive.<br>[[User:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">GrampaSwood</font>]] ([[User talk:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">talk</font>]]) 13:17, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

== Workshop trivia ==

For a long time now there has been Trivia against the pre-release version of cosmetics. I think it can be interesting, for example, if a cosmetic was intended to have a very different design or something was cut entirely. Some stuff like "This cosmetic was intended to be added to the game with [x] cosmetic alongside it" or "this cosmetic was uploaded as a set" would still be invalid Trivia.<br>[[File:BLU Wiki Cap.png|20px|link=List of Wiki Cap owners]] | [[Help:Group rights|<span style="color:green;font-family:TF2 Build;">s</span>]] | [[User:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">GrampaSwood</font>]] [[File:PraisetheSun.png|20px|alt=Praise the Sun!]] ([[User talk:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">talk</font>]]) ([[Special:Contributions/GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">contribs</font>]]) 19:33, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

:The problem is defining what is and what is not interesting, as that is something entirely subjective. Some might think an item originally being part of a set is interesting, some might not; some might think a name change is interesting, some might not.

:I think pre-release trivia could be considered valid ''if'' it is about ''official, Valve-made'' stuff, like "Sasha was originally meant to weight 149 kg instead of 150 kg" or "TF2 was originally going to be an 18+ dating sim". - [[User:BrazilianNut|BrazilianNut]] ([[User talk:BrazilianNut|talk]]) 21:13, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

::It's very easy to make this distinction. We should only include Trivia that is relevant to that cosmetic's model development. A cosmetic being originally 2 cosmetics but then merged into 1 is an interesting point of Trivia, but the cosmetic being intended to be added to the game together with another cosmetic is not relevant to that cosmetic's development, but serves more as an advertisement for the other cosmetic. Name changes are rather irrelevant, I think, because a name is not part of the cosmetic's development ("development" here referring to the actual creation of the cosmetic item and its appearance). I can try writing up a short paragraph what this guideline would be.<br>[[File:BLU Wiki Cap.png|20px|link=List of Wiki Cap owners]] | [[Help:Group rights|<span style="color:green;font-family:TF2 Build;">s</span>]] | [[User:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">GrampaSwood</font>]] [[File:PraisetheSun.png|20px|alt=Praise the Sun!]] ([[User talk:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">talk</font>]]) ([[Special:Contributions/GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">contribs</font>]]) 21:27, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

:::I lean more towards what BrazilianNut said. Moreover, I'm not sure if adding trivias about the development of a model is something that would be interesting. I'd love to see an example of this with an item that was already added in-game. [[User:Yossef|<font color="DB9C1F">'''Yossef'''</font>]] • [[User talk:Yossef|<font color="DB9C1F">'''Talk'''</font>]] 08:52, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

:::: This one doesn't object to the idea. Compared with naming, references and appearances, the details in development could also be a notable point, especially considering such information usually come from the creators - reliable sources of information when speaking of their own creation. As [[User:BrazilianNut|BrazilianNut]] suggested, the point of this question, and even other discussions above on Trivia, lies in the right to define if a piece of trivia is 'interesting', which is more subjective compared with other factors like accuracy. [[File:User Dereko Name.png|100px|link=User:Dereko]] 09:36, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

::::Some examples I can think of are the [[Pain Train]] originally [[Media:Pain Train dev.jpg|being for Pyro]], or the [[Champ Stamp]] having a [https://i.imgur.com/ZaoTdj1.png Demoman version] that was worked on but scrapped. These are all about the specific items themselves and who they were intended for, rather than if the Pain Train was originally going to be called "Ouchie Express" or that the Champ Stamp was in a set with another cosmetic called "Awful Arm Art". The point would be mostly to document a significant change in look/intention (e.g. who the cosmetic is for, if there were gonna be more styles) during development. I think the interest in cut content (not just TF2's, but many other games too) shows there is clearly some interest in "what could have been".<br>[[File:BLU Wiki Cap.png|20px|link=List of Wiki Cap owners]] | [[Help:Group rights|<span style="color:green;font-family:TF2 Build;">s</span>]] | [[User:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">GrampaSwood</font>]] [[File:PraisetheSun.png|20px|alt=Praise the Sun!]] ([[User talk:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">talk</font>]]) ([[Special:Contributions/GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">contribs</font>]]) 12:50, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

::::: I'm in favour of pre-release trivia being added for Workshop stuff, where it exists. I'm definitely interested in things like that. We already have articles for cut stuff that accidentally shipped in Jungle Inferno, for example the [[Handy Pardner]], so the Wiki definitely has precedent for a little bit of "what could have been" content. — [[File:User ThatHatGuy Signature Icon.png|30px|link=User:ThatHatGuy]] 02:09, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

:::::: GIven the aforementioned examples, I wouldn't mind either, it'll be interesting to see how much an item developed until the final release. [[User:Yossef|<font color="DB9C1F">'''Yossef'''</font>]] • [[User talk:Yossef|<font color="DB9C1F">'''Talk'''</font>]] 06:57, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

::::::: I think its a good idea since most workshop cosmetics are now made by set, its actually kind of hard to find any solo cosmetic with the quality to ever be accept in game.[[User:Profiteer|Profiteer（奸商）the tryhard]] ([[User talk:Profiteer|talk]]) 07:16, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

{{Outdent|7}}Do note that Trivia about cosmetics being uploaded as sets, but only one being included, would not be valid Trivia here. I believe we could also allow "making of" videos for maps, linked in the Trivia section (given that the video is made by one of the map creators). Though not sure if people would agree with that as some may see it as advertising. I would like to have a final vote tally under this comment, if everyone could leave their final opinion. {{C|Support}} from me.<br>[[File:BLU Wiki Cap.png|20px|link=List of Wiki Cap owners]] | [[Help:Group rights|<span style="color:green;font-family:TF2 Build;">s</span>]] | [[User:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">GrampaSwood</font>]] [[File:PraisetheSun.png|20px|alt=Praise the Sun!]] ([[User talk:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">talk</font>]]) ([[Special:Contributions/GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">contribs</font>]]) 18:39, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

: {{C|Support}}, I think it'd be interesting to have these things listed. — [[File:User ThatHatGuy Signature Icon.png|30px|link=User:ThatHatGuy]] 02:33, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

:: {{c|Support}} As I mentioned I'm ok with adding trivia about the "beta" state of items, as Gramps mentioned, mentioning the Pain Train was originally intended as a Pyro weapon, etc. 
:: {{Info}} But I'm not so convinced in allowing people to link the "making of", in my opinion, this will be used as advertising, moreover linking their YouTube channels/video will generate more YT revenue for them, and I am not so keen for creators to use the Wiki as a mean for them to benefit financially.
:: [[User:Yossef|<font color="DB9C1F">'''Yossef'''</font>]] • [[User talk:Yossef|<font color="DB9C1F">'''Talk'''</font>]] 07:04, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

::: {{c|Support}}, Always good to have more content for the wiki
::: {{Info}} But the Beta state of community items will be a problem I guess.
:::[[User:Profiteer|Profiteer（奸商）the tryhard]] ([[User talk:Profiteer|talk]]) 08:40, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

::::{{Info}} I retain my original position. I'm ok with pre-release trivia for official, Valve-made stuff being added. As for community-made stuff, either there should be some strict, well-defined establishments of what is and what isn't valid pre-release, or there should be none at all. - [[User:BrazilianNut|BrazilianNut]] ([[User talk:BrazilianNut|talk]]) 08:51, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

::::: 1. We have in the last few years had a policy that we don't have enough labor available for less restictive Trivia policies.
::::: 2. "No pre-release" an "No workshop" are relatively easy to enforce.
::::: 3. Some judgement-call cases for pre-release Trivia from workshop is now proposed that seem to need more labor to discuss and rule on each inclusion. I see that the proposal is less definitive than the current ones as demonstrated by the range of opinions.
:::::Mind you, I have long held that sufficient notability of a prerelease fact can override the rule for excluding prerelease facts in general. An example to me is the name change of the map Monster Bash. In other words, I think the present polic'''''ies''''' have a counter balancing effect. One policy says "No prerelease" while the other say it is ''notable'' enough to include even if it is prerelase.
::::: [[User:Mikado282|<span style="font-family: Arial"><font color="db9c1f">''' M I K A D O 282 '''</font></span><span style="font-family: Arial "><font color="00ff00"> <small>⊙</small>⊙⊙⊙⊙<small>⊙ ⊙⊙  ⊙⊙ </font></span>]] </small><!--               
--> ([[User:Mikado282/Contact Mikado282|'''''contact''''']])([[User:Mikado282/Help Wanted!|'''''Help Wanted!''''']]) 02:25, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

== Community TF2 Youtuber Trivia ==

I'd like to reference this [[Operation Firmware_Frenzy#Trivia|Trivia]], but can be extended to future similar scenarios.

I'm not convinced on adding any trivia that contains references to any community tf2 youtuber, or even less a video made by any of them. '''Unless''' Valve themselves makes such references, an example could be the infamous "[https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/index.php?title=Axtinguisher&diff=next&oldid=2326113 Sketchek's Bequest]". (For the users unfamiliar with the topic, tl;dr: Sketchek was a tf2 Youtuber that faked having a terminal illness and his death. Before getting exposed, Valve made a small tribute by adding an attribute to the Axtinguisher called "Sketchek's Bequest", and unsurprisingly Valve deleted the tribute when everything unfolded.) 

The reason why we need to discuss this is '''because''':
* Youtubers can use the wiki as mean to advertise their content, and consequently have monetary gains.
** This can allow corruption within item creators and the TF2 Youtubers. Possible scenarios could be that a TF2 Youtuber can pay any item creator to make a "reference" (advertise) to their YT channel or content, knowingly that this reference will be posted in the wiki forever be there.
* This does not stop in one instance, a TF2 Youtuber could pay multiple item creators to advertise through their items. Consequently this will end in multiple wiki articles referencing the same Youtuber.

We have to keep in mind that this '''only''' applies to Community Medals, community-created items, or anything community related. As well, this could extend to any Youtuber regardless if they play TF2 or not.

As always, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

[[User:Yossef|<font color="DB9C1F">'''Yossef'''</font>]] • [[User talk:Yossef|<font color="DB9C1F">'''Talk'''</font>]] 07:37, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

: I think it's fine. These are community-written descriptions, and event organizers can write whatever they want to, yes -- but they '''are''' officially sanctioned, actual descriptions for items that exist in the game; and if they reference something that can be confidently proven to be a reference, what harm do we get out of mentioning it, regardless of ''what'' the reference is to? I thought that was the ''entire point'' of cracking down on referential trivia in the first place. The rules about it are there for a reason; and if you ask me, they're hard enough to deal with as it is.

: Are you against mentioning, with citations, that some of the [[Operation Last Laugh#Trivia|Last Laugh]] medals reference a Better Call Saul episode, or Pizza Tower? Those have been proven to be references, just like this one has. Maybe somebody went out and streamed that episode because of the medal. Maybe somebody bought Pizza Tower after receiving the Bruised Johnstone. That's not our concern to know, I think; the fact that it's a YouTube video this time shouldn't matter. We have no control over what's written for these descriptions, but it was proven to be a direct reference, just like the others. I doubt there'll be millions of medals that all reference specific YouTubers, let alone an under-the-table payment for it. — [[File:User ThatHatGuy Signature Icon.png|30px|link=User:ThatHatGuy]] 08:08, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

::I think that you missed my point, perhaps I was not clearly enough. I'm not against trivia in general, as its unlikely that the writers/directors of Better Call Shaul would contact a tf2 creator to make a reference to their show, or devs of any AAA or indie game would do the same in that matter. What I'm referring is the exploitation of Youtubers using this platform to spread their content, by commissioning item creators to purposely make references to their yt content. Since new item articles can generate traffic to their channels, meaning they benefit financially. There haven't been any confirmed cases '''yet''' of this being exploited, that's why we need to tackle this topic down before its too late. Not to mention that we have had discussions on what could be considered as "advertisement", and this is '''indeed''' an advertisement to a Youtube video.
::[[User:Yossef|<font color="DB9C1F">'''Yossef'''</font>]] • [[User talk:Yossef|<font color="DB9C1F">'''Talk'''</font>]] 08:32, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

:::You have a very interesting discussion here, Yossef. Well, in my personal view on this matter, the Wiki should NOT accept any type of advertising propaganda. The whole purpose of a Wiki is to get free access to any subject of interest with no monetary interaction whatsoever. We should not let any TF2 YouTuber or any other person get any monetary gains through this page.
:::* In the case a creator gets paid to make an item that advertises a channel or content, we need to make it clear that we would not accept that item to be in the game and the Wiki
:::* Stay firm that our Wiki is made with no lucrative intentions
:::* Not only item creators but even Staff members or any contributor of the Wiki might get contacted to add any kind of advertising in exchange for money/valuable stuff
:::* I don't want to see the page infested with advertises of any kind 
:::In conclusion. The Wiki has to be out of any TF2 creators with or without lucrative intentions. [[User:BIOS|BIOS]] ([[User talk:BIOS|talk]]) 09:02, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

::::I mean, we have to make wiki articles of every item added in the game, if for some reason there is a medal called "Uncle Dane's Fun Medal" we have to create wiki articles about it regardless. The topic is whether to allow trivia related to tf2 youtubers (or regular youtubers). [[User:Yossef|<font color="DB9C1F">'''Yossef'''</font>]] • [[User talk:Yossef|<font color="DB9C1F">'''Talk'''</font>]] 10:22, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

::::: I mean, yes, if theres any more medals named after a tf2 Youtuber, we (sadly, I would say) have to create a wiki article, but I hope this never happens. Anyway, I don't like the idea of allowing trivia related to tf2 youtubers or anyother youtuber. [[User:BIOS|BIOS]] ([[User talk:BIOS|talk]]) 11:29, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

::::::I can get a concern about advertisement, but I also don't think this is a real problem. Once TF2bers start actually advertising their channel rather than people simply putting a reference to someone's video, we should have this discussion. Advertisement is obviously not allowed, but these references are not advertisements anymore than references to other media are advertisements. Trivia such as "this weapon has a great video made by x" is advertisement, but simply documenting a reference to a video is not advertisement.<br>[[File:BLU Wiki Cap.png|20px|link=List of Wiki Cap owners]] | [[Help:Group rights|<span style="color:green;font-family:TF2 Build;">s</span>]] | [[User:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">GrampaSwood</font>]] [[File:PraisetheSun.png|20px|alt=Praise the Sun!]] ([[User talk:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">talk</font>]]) ([[Special:Contributions/GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">contribs</font>]]) 13:10, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

:::::::The problem is: we wouldn't be able to tell a reference made on the content creator's own free will from one where the internet celebrity has asked/paid them for it - if asked "were you paid to do this?", the creator could simply say "no" and we'd have no way of knowing if they are being honest or not.

:::::::Another problem is: what about content creators promoting their own channels, social media etc. in their creations (which is already the case in [[Slime]])? - [[User:BrazilianNut|BrazilianNut]] ([[User talk:BrazilianNut|talk]]) 15:26, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

== Workshop Trivia (2: trivial boogaloo) ==

So the previous discussion ended on a 5-1 or 5-2 vote on re-introducing ''interesting'' pre-release Workshop trivia. I couldn't exactly figure out Mikado's vote, but it would still be a majority voting yes either way.

To propose what is and isn't interesting, I've created [[User:GrampaSwood/Workshop Trivia|this]]. Please leave any feedback (preferably) on its talk page, rather than there. Note that I'm willing to change format, wording, and the excluded non-interesting Trivia, so feel free to give just about any feedback (other than "I don't want this at all", that was the previous discussion) on the talk page.<br>[[File:BLU Wiki Cap.png|20px|link=List of Wiki Cap owners]] {{!}} [[Help:Group rights|<span style="color:green;font-family:TF2 Build;">s</span>]] {{!}} [[User:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">GrampaSwood</font>]] [[File:PraisetheSun.png|20px|alt=Praise the Sun!]] ([[User talk:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">talk</font>]]) ([[Special:Contributions/GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">contribs</font>]]) 13:33, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

== Loosening the Wiki's great guideline ==

Regarding references, I think it's fair to say we can be a bit less strict on Valve-created content Trivia. I propose we loosen up the rules around Valve-made content Trivia (mostly the one about references to other media), but do it in such a way that it's not anything goes (because god knows how that will turn out) but rather that references should at the very least include 2 points of reference that support the trivia as being valid. For example, the Wheel of Fate having a "Whammy" card referencing "Press Your Luck". The two reference points here being the name being used on the show as a bad thing (in TF2 it's used to describe a negative effect), and the show has a "wheel" of sorts like the Wheel of Fate. This is currently not accepted Trivia, due to lack of source, but I think we can agree this is a pretty solid point of Trivia.

Another topic, regarding community references. Those will still generally need confirmations, however, if a certain item is (for example purposes) 10 years old the chance is big that a creator may not reply. In this case, or just generally if the case can be made, I think if a reference has 3 or more supporting arguments (can be sourced from Workshop page, for example) it can be safely included as a confirmed reference. Note that the 10 years old thing is not a requirement, just an example. Generally for most Trivias, confirmation will still be needed, but things such as the look + workshop quote + set name on workshop would be sufficient to include it. Please let me know what you think.<br>[[File:BLU Wiki Cap.png|20px|link=List of Wiki Cap owners]] {{!}} [[Help:Group rights|<span style="color:green;font-family:TF2 Build;">s</span>]] {{!}} [[User:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">GrampaSwood</font>]] [[File:PraisetheSun.png|20px|alt=Praise the Sun!]] ([[User talk:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">talk</font>]]) ([[Special:Contributions/GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">contribs</font>]]) 00:13, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

: {{c|agree}} I agree with both of these suggestions. Obviously a direct confirmation is always preffered but in some cases it simply isn't possible to get a direct response and having a little bit of leniency would be good. If someone can lay out a good case for the piece of trivia I believe it should be allowed. [[User:Mediarch|<font color="ec5c69">'''Mediarch'''</font>]] [[File:User Mediarch PFP.png|25px]][[User:Mediarch|<font color="#ff66cc"> ♥ </font>]][[User talk:Mediarch|<font color="ec5c69">'''Talk'''</font>]][[User:Mediarch|<font color="#ff66cc"> ♥ </font>]][[Special:Contributions/Mediarch|<font color="ec5c69">'''My Edits'''</font>]] 00:24, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

::With how hard it is to actually get in contact with Valve about TF2 these days, I'd say It's pretty fair to loosen the rules about Valve based trivia, if they are proven to be wrong with evidence then we can remove them like any of bit of false trivia. <br>[[User:Cheddar|<font color="#193940">'''Cheddar'''</font>]] • [[User talk:Cheddar|<font color="#193940">'''Talk'''</font>]] 14:28, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

::: {{c|agree}} For Valve-created content I fully agree; I feel so long as a reference or piece of Trivia can be reasonably backed up it would make more sense to connect-the-dots than reach out to Valve in hopes they respond, let alone having (one of) the employees that actually worked on said content be able to confirm it.<br>For community created content, I feel the best approach would be to attempt to reach out through whichever platform the contributor would be most likely to respond on (i.e. appears inactive on Steam, but their page links to Twitter and they have shown more recent activity there), and if a response isn't received after a set period of time follow similar structure to Valve-created content, though maybe with slightly more scrutiny?<br>For unconfirmed Trivia in general it could be worth adding an indicator that Valve/community contributor has not directly confirmed the Trivia, such as with a hover-over tooltip.<br>[[User:Kibblekip|<font color="7D4071">Kibblekip</font>]] <sup>[[User Talk:Kibblekip|<font color="803020"><b>T</b></font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Kibblekip|<font color="256D8D"><b>C</b></font>]]</sup> 00:25, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
:::: {{c|agree}} At the very least, we should cut some slack for Valve-made items, and even more so for Valve's references to their own games. The policy for community-created items should remain the same '''unless''' the creator can't be contacted. I was almost certain that the [[Motley Sleeves]] were a reference to [[w: Mötley Crue|Mötley Crue]], yet the person behind the cosmetic's promotional image doubted any relationship between the two (on the other hand, they may have been unfamiliar with Mötley Crue's music). Likewise, [[Greased Lightning]]'s alleged reference to the idiom "like greased lightning" (very fast) seemed self-evident since Scout is the fastest class in the game. I decided to ask one of the creators to be one hundred percent sure, and surprisingly, the creator behind the idea commented that the hat wasn't a direct reference to the phrase, though the [[w: Greased Lightnin'|song]] the item was named after was presumably related to the expression. The line of Trivia was consequently deleted from the cosmetic page.

:::: Upon flicking through the [[Head Hunter]] and [[Claws And Infect]] articles, it felt bizarre to see no mention of the [[w: Left 4 Dead (franchise)|''Left 4 Dead'']] games at all (however, the [[Crazy Legs]] were seemingly allowed to acknowledge the connection). With the current state of the Trivia guidelines, you could still argue against citing ''Left 4 Dead'' as a reference due to an omission of confirmation, but that reasoning doesn't hold up well against common sense. Most [[Team Fortress 2|''Team Fortress 2'']] players are familiar with ''Left 4 Dead'' in at least some capacity and can point to those cosmetics and tell you it's the [https://left4dead.fandom.com/wiki/The_Hunter Hunter] [https://left4dead.fandom.com/wiki/The_Infected#Special_Infected Special Infected]. To make matters worse, I attempted to message the authors to grab verification, but to no avail. Therefore, the Wiki's policy on media references can hinder the quality of articles in exceptional cases such as this.

:::: In my opinion, Trivia contributions should be founded on educated assumptions as little as possible. However, if sufficient evidence is provided for the reference, wiggle room can be made for cosmetics credited to Valve and situations in which the creator can't be contacted. When messaging a credited author, they should be given a reasonable amount of time to respond—perhaps a month if they're mostly inactive. 

::::[[User:Georgian Bankrobber|Georgian Bankrobber]] ([[User talk:Georgian Bankrobber|talk]]) 22:31, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

:::::The Hunter Trivia is mentioned on [[Rooftop Rebel]], instead of having every cosmetic + the set have the Trivia it's just on the cosmetic set page.<br>[[File:BLU Wiki Cap.png|20px|link=List of Wiki Cap owners]] {{!}} [[Help:Group rights|<span style="color:green;font-family:TF2 Build;">s</span>]] {{!}} [[User:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">GrampaSwood</font>]] [[File:PraisetheSun.png|20px|alt=Praise the Sun!]] ([[User talk:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">talk</font>]]) ([[Special:Contributions/GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">contribs</font>]]) 22:39, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

::: {{c|agree}} With one takeaway being what was suggested regarding community-created content 10+ years old. There is a [[Hallowed Headcase|cosmetic]] I have suspicions about being a reference to a [https://www.dota2.com/hero/juggernaut DOTA character] due to the creator having been making DOTA 2 items in their workshop around the time period they created that cosmetic, however what I want to ask is, is 2 pointers really enough? I would suggest maybe going for 3. --[[User:ShadowMan44|ShadowMan44]] ([[User talk:ShadowMan44|talk]]) 22:47, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

:::: In regards to community content trivia, one of the sources should be directly from the workshop page. Recently a trivia on [[Pom-Pommed Provocateur]] was verified with the idea maker that it was not a reference to something that was added as trivia awhile ago. Although I don't think this specific false positive would be possible to make with 3 references, there is probably some items where it would be possible. W/E on the valve content. [[User:Jh34ghu43gu|Jh34ghu43gu]] ([[User talk:Jh34ghu43gu|talk]]) 01:20, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

::::: I don't see why the workshop page should be required. It would be preffered to have it obviously but feels arbitrary to enforce that. If you can make the case for the trivia without the workshop page I don't see why it shouldn't be included. For example [[Applejack]] has [https://i.imgur.com/9jKqQGS.png this sign] of a large fish. The plaque on the sign has the quote {{code|"I CAUGHT YOU A DELICIOUS BASS" -N. Dynamite.}} This is a reference to the movie [[w:Napoleon Dynamite|Napoleon Dynamite]]. The main character, Napoleon Dynamite (N. Dynamite),  [https://youtu.be/H8Q_8DvipCA?si=Onq_C6fJz1HMPNQ8 says the exact same quote] in the final scene of the movie. However this fish sign isn't mentioned on the workshop page. Feels a little silly to exclude something like this simply because it's not mentioned on the workshop page. [[User:Mediarch|{{font color|ec5c69|'''Mediarch'''}}]] [[File:User Mediarch PFP.png|25px]][[User:Mediarch|{{font color|ff66cc| ♥ }}]][[User talk:Mediarch|{{font color|ec5c69|'''Talk'''}}]][[User:Mediarch|{{font color|ff66cc| ♥ }}]][[Special:Contributions/Mediarch|{{font color|ec5c69|'''My Edits'''}}]] 02:07, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

:::::: I was only thinking about items not maps when I made my comment (dustbowl is the only map that exists after all). I would not apply the original comment to maps since information density is much higher on maps. [[User:Jh34ghu43gu|Jh34ghu43gu]] ([[User talk:Jh34ghu43gu|talk]]) 02:19, 2 September 2024 (UTC)