View source for Talk:Environmental death

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== Removing the notes of where certain hazards are ==

I believe this kind of information is a bit too specific, really belonging only in the map articles, and doesn't need to be here. Removing it would make updating the article's translations easier, possibly with the creation of a template similar to {{tl|Maps list}}. - [[User:BrazilianNut|BrazilianNut]] ([[User talk:BrazilianNut|talk]]) 02:40, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

{{c|Support}}, not sure it's necessary for something like Crushing to note all the places it appears.<br>[[File:BLU Wiki Cap.png|20px|link=Wiki Cap]] | [[Help:Group rights|<span style="color:green;font-family:TF2 Build;">s</span>]] | [[User:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">GrampaSwood</font>]] ([[User talk:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">talk</font>]]) 11:20, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

== Cleanup ==
I think this page should see a major overhaul. Currently this page lists every hazard that looks different. I believe that this clutters up the page with hazards that function identically but simply look different. I propose we overhaul the page into the same 4 sections, but the subsections would contain broader hazards. For example, rather than having "Crocodiles", "Sharks", and "Gators" in separate sections they would simply be under something such as "Animal death". This also prevents the page from eventually becoming too big to solve this problem more reasonably. I would be doing this myself, then pass it for approval.<br>[[File:BLU Wiki Cap.png|20px|link=List of Wiki Cap owners]] | [[Help:Group rights|<span style="color:green;font-family:TF2 Build;">s</span>]] | [[User:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">GrampaSwood</font>]] [[File:PraisetheSun.png|20px|alt=Praise the Sun!]] ([[User talk:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">talk</font>]]) ([[Special:Contributions/GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">contribs</font>]]) 21:49, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

:{{pro}} '''Support'''.

:Additionally, I now agree with what you and Tiagoquix said in [[Team_Fortress_Wiki:Discussion#Articles_for_individual_environmental_hazards|my topic in the Wiki's Discussions]] about articles for individual hazards. I think turning this page into a "List of" one and moving the more detailed information to individual articles would be the ideal. - [[User:BrazilianNut|BrazilianNut]] ([[User talk:BrazilianNut|talk]]) 22:06, 14 January 2024 (UTC)


: {{pro}} {{neutral}} {{con}}  '''Mixed''' support, as I would probably end up with a somewhat different solution if I were to clean it up, but I don't have the time that some others might.
:* My thought is that this page is ''already'' a list of environmental hazards. 
:* ''"the same 4 sections"''  In part,  will support if you mean "Instant death hazards", "Non-instant death hazards", "Non-injurous hazards", "Bosses". Maybe, they could have better titles, but these are the basic groups that any hazards list will need.
:* It is easy to see there is a need for a major overhaul. 
:** I did some overhaul, but stopping to get back to family life does not mean there isn't more I want to change.
:* On reflection, all of the bomb reskins could be moved into a [[Bombs]] page. 
:** I almost merged all of the Pumpkin Bombs reskins, '''until I realized that ''most are not straight reskins'', but have ''at least one mechanic difference'' from the original Pumpkin Bombs.'''
:** [[Pumpkin bombs]] already has most of the reskin images, but none of the unique mechanics for each of the reskins.  

:* '''What is useful here?''' Anything that can be presented in a more useful format than in separate articles, even it is on main pages in a different format?
:** '''List of maps that have each effect?''' I think so, even if there is a separate article. Maybe not, as long as every page has a bulleted list of maps with the effect. 
:** '''Image of the effects?''' Maybe not, if there is a main article.
:** '''Kill Icons?''' Maybe. I mean, Any main artile article would have the same kill icons.
:** '''Associated achievements?''' The present format is not useful, as there is no traceabilty between the hazzards and achievements. 
:* I almost thought that there was ''no point for the Bosses section'', until today. I realised one of the points for the page is listing the kill icons, and Merasmus has a pile of them. ''Buuuut'', those kill icons are all on Merasmus' page, too.
:I think I would '''oppose''' moving ''everything'' to various other pages. Some hazzards simply don't warrant a page, IMO.  YMMV. 
:* I don't see enough information about '''Ice''' or '''Banana Peel''' to make an article here, but the entries here give players a list of maps to find these features. 
:* I don't even see a reason for a distinct page on '''Lava fire'''. While it is interesting that it is nothing like the Underworld Lava, there isn't much more to say about it beside what is on the hazards section. 
:* So far, a [[Gator]] page could have exactly one sentence.
:'''''But''''', maybe, some staff and users would think it would work that about 5-10 of these pages would just have one paragraph and a list of maps with the effect.  YMMV

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:{{pro}} '''Support'''.
: Both overhaul and renaming as suggested on the page are needful for this page.
: On the issue of sections, a clear classification method would be useful - based on mechanics or appearances? Like, what's making a pool of crocodiles diffierent from an abyssal pit?
: Additionally, a separate section named "Bosses" is weird to me. We may consider renaming it to "Creatures/Entities" according to the prefered classification method, and have Ghosts included - I just realized this one posted a topic for Ghost in 2019 on this page.
: [[File:User Dereko Name.png|100px|link=User:Dereko]] 13:51, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

::: ''"Like, what's making a pool of crocodiles different from an abyssal pit?" 
:: Like Brokkhouse confirmed, the hurt is the same, the difference is coding for special animation and kill icon.  I would note the ''game function'' is identical to any Pitfall, to make either a boundary hazard or internal hazard to increase risks in specific play spaces.  
::: ''"separate section named "Bosses" is weird to me"''
:: First, my guess for their original inclusion is that their kills have either the general or tailored environmental kill icons, and so, I speculate that their damage is also registered as a environmental source (someone like Brokkhouse, ICS, or Grampa Swood could confirm).
:: I could '''support''' renaming to Entities, since to this editor with little knowledge of game terminology doesn't understand these NPC as "bosses" (not the big monster to fight to complete the level or game).
::* A challenge is that some NPC/Entities have multiple  classes of effects (e.g., both insta-kill and slow).
::* Ghost could be included, there, but I have been thinking of adding "Scare", "Slow", and or "Scare/Slow" to the non-injurious hazards as they are certainly the best-known representatives of the Non-injurious hazards type, definitely non-injurious and definitely a hazard. Is there a kill icon for killed while scared/slowed?
::* Ghosts are a source of another non-injurious hazard, Darkness, but I don't know how people think it plays out. It is only really a matter when a Ghost passes inside a building, but I think I am more focused on the Scare hazard than Darkness hiding an enemy player or Sentry.
::* In this sense, should Big Mama be move to the "Boss/Entity" section, or is it best to leave the sleeping bread lie? 
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:::I'm not sure much modification to the page atm is necessary, it's been almost a week and it seems like the consensus would be for an overhaul. If no major objections are made then I'll be working on a rework on my user space. As for the Bread Monster, it's not a boss, which should remain as a separate hazard section.<br>[[File:BLU Wiki Cap.png|20px|link=List of Wiki Cap owners]] | [[Help:Group rights|<span style="color:green;font-family:TF2 Build;">s</span>]] | [[User:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">GrampaSwood</font>]] [[File:PraisetheSun.png|20px|alt=Praise the Sun!]] ([[User talk:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">talk</font>]]) ([[Special:Contributions/GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">contribs</font>]]) 18:49, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

== "Animal deaths" ==

{{Con}} '''Oppose'''. 
* IIUC, Sharks and Crocodiles are simply animation reskins of Underworld Deadly Waters, which are themselves just Pitfalls with ragdoll bobbing animation. (Infernal Lava is just a Pitfall reskin, AFAIK.)  Maybe, I would '''support''' a tastefull [[Water deaths]] covering Sharks, Crocodiles, and [[Raging Rapids]] '''''but''''' also '''all''' of the Underworld insta-kill waters that they reskin.
* ''On the other hand'' the single Gator is a ''point contact'' kill. I have seen other things that would have been a hilarious point contact kills, but Gator is still a one-off.
* Rexxy is much more complex, but all of her mechanics should only be on Enclosure.
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:At a base level, every hazard that can kill functions the same. They're all triggers that either instantly kill or deal an amount of damage over time, the animal deaths example was just an example of how stuff would be grouped together. All 3 of them are similar in appearance and instantly kill, hence I would count it as a similar group of hazards. It could also be added to "Deadly waters" in general, which would include the animals, instant kill water, boiling water, etc. The point is that we can group many of the hazards together in similar groups rather than all be a different section.<br>[[File:BLU Wiki Cap.png|20px|link=List of Wiki Cap owners]] | [[Help:Group rights|<span style="color:green;font-family:TF2 Build;">s</span>]] | [[User:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">GrampaSwood</font>]] [[File:PraisetheSun.png|20px|alt=Praise the Sun!]] ([[User talk:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">talk</font>]]) ([[Special:Contributions/GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">contribs</font>]]) 12:02, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

== Move to [[Environmental hazards]] ==

'''Environmental hazards''' has been the ''de facto'' title for some time, now, more broadly covering the listed effects.

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:{{C|Oppose}}, the current page name is more accurate as there are only 3 non-lethal hazards. The ice and banana peel are both essentially under the same slippery surface category, while the shaking one is not environmental at all.<br>[[File:BLU Wiki Cap.png|20px|link=List of Wiki Cap owners]] | [[Help:Group rights|<span style="color:green;font-family:TF2 Build;">s</span>]] | [[User:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">GrampaSwood</font>]] [[File:PraisetheSun.png|20px|alt=Praise the Sun!]] ([[User talk:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">talk</font>]]) ([[Special:Contributions/GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">contribs</font>]]) 12:39, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

:{{C|Oppose}}, The current article is fine and it wouldn't be necessary to move it, so {{C|Nope}}.<br>----[[User:Slimyboi500|Slimyboi500]] [[File:User Slimyboi500 Profile.jpg|25px|link=User:Slimyboi500]] '''Current Status''': {{#switch: {{User:Slimyboi500/status}}
| 1 = Asleep
| 0 | #default = Awake
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== Merge Pumpkin bomb and all of the reskins with Pumpkin bomb ==


 [[Pumpkin bomb]] already has most of the reskin images, but none of the unique mechanics for each of the reskins.  

Merge all of the Pumpkin bomb reskins content into [[Pumpkin bomb]], especially covering the variant mechanics for each reskin.

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== Pitfall class ==

Pitfall is any death trigger surface that instantly kills any player that touches it regardless of any distance fallen. If the trigger surface is the ground, a floor, or infernal lava, the player's ragdoll falls to that surface. If the trigger is some invisible level in air or space, then the player's ragdoll falls through to any visible surface below. If the trigger surface is water, then the player's ragdoll bobs on the water.

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: Really, crocs and sharks are just water surface Pitfalls with animas swimming around somewhere.

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:: Brokkhouse confirmed this last statement. The sharks and crocks are just Deadly Waters with added code for the swimming creature animations (which have nothing to do with any hurt) and for the different kill icons.
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== Dissecting Rexxy (on Enclosure) ==

Rexxy is multifactored, but could be broken down into components. (Costly to experiment with, because she appears at the Final of the third stage, where it is easy to get killed just as you are about to test something.)
# When BLU caps 3rd final, the Bomb Cart explodes early for insta-kill range effect.
# Rexxy slams the doors open. The Flying doors seem to also be insta-kills as Falling Debris, but this should be confirmed from source code or developers. 
# Rexxy advances to the Point and is a point contact insta-kill with knockback during Humiliation (like Gator).
A point can make here is that Enclosure Final/Rexxy would be listed in at least three bulk entries rather that in her own section, subject to consensus; 1. Bomb Cart Explosion, 2. Falling Debris, and 3. Contact Kill.

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: Again with Brokkhouse, 1. just a bomb cart explosion. 2. ''maybe'' the flung gate doors do something, will have to check the code. 3. The touch kill is basically the same deal as Gator.
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== Falling Debris ==

With [[Galleria]] reminding us about Falling Debris, I want to ask if Falling Debris is really a factor in some Payload Cart Explosions. I know some huge chunks of debris are thrown out. My question is, does the falling bomb cart debris cause secondary insta-kill, maybe farther out than the explosion radius.

If so, falling debris should be part of the Bomb Cart explosion hazard (unless many pl don't have falling debris). Falling debris separate from Bomb Cart explosions should have a separate short list, eg. Galleria and Enclosure/Rexxy. IMO.

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: Brokkhouse stated that the chunks from Cart explosions have no associated hurt effect. The [[falling debris]] is unique (for now) to Galleria 
:: ''"because MCL did some amazing job coding a kill effect to the individual pieces"''.
: So, falling debris is distinctive and notable.  IMO
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