Talk:Reskins

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Does anyone know how to do this? I created this page, but it's not showing up as an English language page.MEDUNN 06:33, 13 August 2011 (PDT)

A bot updates that list, but it has done it now seb26 15:20, 13 August 2011 (PDT)

Category

This should really be a category rather than an article in its own right. In most cases, these aren't reskins, but alternate models. Maybe move it to Alternate Models? It just feels weird calling this article "reskin". --SilverHammer 23:30, 16 August 2011 (PDT)

Oh, it's already a category. Alright, I'mma just nominate this for deletion then. Opinions go here. --SilverHammer 23:32, 16 August 2011 (PDT)

 Oppose – page has more info than the category page and is more useful. As it provides this extra info it isn't a duplication or redundant. seb26 23:50, 16 August 2011 (PDT)

 OpposeWhy delete this page instead of the incomplete catagory page?MEDUNN 02:49, 17 August 2011 (PDT)

Cause the only one that's actually a reskin is the Golden Wrench. --SilverHammer 12:08, 17 August 2011 (PDT)

Um, I think you've got the definition of reskin wrong there. A reskin isn't a palate or colour swap. It means anything that has a visual, and possible sound, difference but has the same function. Everything on this list is a reskin. The original and holy macral are too really.MEDUNN 14:09, 17 August 2011 (PDT)

 Oppose - SilverHammer, I created the original category page (which has since been redirected to this page) because I felt that it only warranted a category and not a full article; however, MEDUNN took the work I did and improved upon it greatly with a table, item icons, and even additional notes about the reskinned items. I am convinced it should stay, as Valve will likely continue to release more reskinned items in future updates. ButteredToast 10:14, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

 Info Just to note, by this definition of reskin the Shovel, Fire Axe, Bottle, Fists, Wrench, Bonesaw and Kukri are all reskins of each other. —Moussekateer·talk 10:46, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

I think that calling the base weapons reskins of each other is about as useful as calling hats reskins of each other (save for the Polycount hats); after all, having a reskin requires some kind of prerequisite weapon, and all of these weapons are the first of their kind and were released at the same time. ButteredToast 11:02, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

 Support Adding a pretty table to an article doesn't make it worth keeping. Suggest moving any non-table content to Category:Reskins and leave the "Notes" section to their respective articles. Basically, this "article" is just a list, which is EXACTLY what a Category: page is. coreycubed / talk 10:55, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

By that standard we would be deleting the 'hats', 'misc' and countless other pages for being just lists. This page fulfills the need to diferentiate weapons which have unique stats and those that don't.MEDUNN 10:55, 23 August 2011 (PDT)

Holy Mackerel and The Original

Can we have a vote to decide whether or not these are reskins or not. I would say yes as they share the fuction of two other weapons with only visual differences. I know some people say that the original's position makes it better as it's easier to aim, but I would say that that is still just a visual and not a functional change.MEDUNN 04:43, 21 August 2011 (PDT)

I don't think that the Mackerel really counts as a reskin since it counts the number of hits that it makes in the killfeed notification, something no other weapon before it has done. As for the Original, I'm a little divided on the issue, but I think it counts as a reskin since it is functionally similar to the Rocket Launcher. ButteredToast 10:14, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

The two weapons have different attributes attached, so from that perspective they are unique weapons. From a gameplay perspective the Holy Mackerel makes it easier to see when a team mate is being smacked about by a Scout, and the Original fires from a different position. If it fired from the bottom left of the screen would it still be considered equal to the rocket launcher? —Moussekateer·talk 10:19, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

The Holy Mackerel is not a reskin, since it also is part of a set that provides a bonus. That same set using the Bat instead wouldn't function, so therefore it has a mechanical property that the Bat does not, even discounting the kill feed notifications. Similarly, the Original fires from a different position on the screen, changing how a Soldier can use cover. This is also a different mechanical property, and as such is not a reskin but functionally a different weapon. ==Fax Celestis _talkcontrib^home

What about the Saxxy and G. Wrench though? They have a unique attribute. Balladofwindfishes 10:30, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

I never included the Golden Wrench or Saxxy because reskins before, though the Saxxy does technically count as a reskin of the Golden Wrench since it duplicates the functionality of the Golden Wrench. ButteredToast 10:39, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

Their unique attribute doesn't have any mechanical effect on gameplay. Over in tabletop gaming land, we call this a "fluff vs. crunch" disparity. Fluff/flavor are things that have no actual effect on the mechanics of gameplay: describing how one wizard casts a spell differently than another wizard still results in the same spell with the same mechanical, "crunch" effects.

Similarly, a golden wrench vs. an iron wrench all inflict the same damage, have the same critical hit rate, and construct the same buildings: the only difference is the texture map and the on-kill attribute of the golden wrench. If a statue'd enemy blocked enemy fire, remained on the map as a new obstacle, or otherwise altered how the game was played in more than a visible matter, then it would indeed be a new weapon. The saxxy is much the same: it possesses the same attributes as the base melee weapon of whatever class is holding it. The only differences arise in how it is wielded and what happens on-kill, neither of which have any mechanical effect on gameplay. As such, it is a 'fluff' difference, rather than the more mechanical difference between, say, a Reserve Shooter and a Shotgun. ==Fax Celestis _talkcontrib^home 12:27, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

That's all well and good, but compared to other "reskins" we have on the page (like the Maul), it's different. It's a unique, coded attribute. Balladofwindfishes 14:11, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

...with no functional impact upon the game. The Golden Wrench page could be merged with the regular Wrench page and condensed to a singular paragraph, whereas the Frontier Justice is different enough from the regular Shotgun that it warrants an entire page. The Maul has a different kill icon: does that make it different enough from the Homewrecker to warrant calling it a 'unique weapon'? From your statements above, no. And if the Maul is not unique enough to be considered a reskin, neither is the Golden Wrench: it has the same mechanical effects in game. The only difference is the cosmetic result it has on opponents it kills. ==Fax Celestis _talkcontrib^home 16:30, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

I think this shows that noone here can accurately define what a reskin is. —Moussekateer·talk 16:35, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

DVDV has come up with an excellent set of criteria for defining exactly what a reskin is. I say we frame this discussion of these weapons based on that (see his post below).MEDUNN 10:52, 23 August 2011 (PDT)

Trivia

• Some hats were reskins of other hats before being added officially to the game.

This line is debatable in my opinion. The easy way to add hats into the game unofficially is to overwrite the models of other hats. While this can be construed as 'reskinning', it is not usually the authors intention to reimagine the hat being overwritten. You can overwrite any hat. By this definition every class hat is a reskin of every other class hat (apart from the polycount hats) since they are functionally identical. —Moussekateer·talk 10:27, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

I have to agree with Mousekateer on this one; short of the Polycount hats which provided a bonus when the entire set is equipped, changing the models of the hats doesn't really count as reskinning. ButteredToast 10:34, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

The purpose of the trivia was to show the way reskining was used in the creation process. Before the examples were removed the trivia showed how many now unique items began as reskins, Dalokhs bar used to be a sandvich reskins ect, and this applied to headgear to with the example of Madame Dixie first being introduced into the game by Valve as a reskin in the 'Fancy vs Nasty' update. It was meant to show the role reskining has in community related content and how many now unique items began as reskins. However, once the examples were removed the sentences became vague.MEDUNN 09:07, 23 August 2011 (PDT)

Should we add a date added column?

Should we add a "date added" column?

 Nope. coreycubed / talk 07:04, 23 August 2011 (PDT)

Does this need a page?

Since it seems we can't decide what a reskin actually is, is it a weapon that merely shares stats (Maul, Fishcake), weapons that have a unique cosmetic effect, but are otherwise identical (Saxxy, Mackarel, Golden Wrench), weapon that share a model (Rocket Jumper), hats that are the same model with unique texture (Ellis' Cap, Athletic Supporter), items with the same UV map (Tomislav, Cappos caper), and so on. ALL of those could be considered a "reskin." Plus, you have things like the Three Rune Blade, which has different voice lines than the Boston Basher... is it still a reskin? And honestly, what purpose does this page serve? A category (which we already had) could serve the same purpose, and be a lot simpler. This just seems like a needless list of items with no real set theme or purpose. Balladofwindfishes 16:44, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

I think it's fine to be honest, the Wiki is here to give useful information about the game, and this table is much more useful than a category, especially for new users who will be the ones wanting to look at it anyway. And I think the definition of a reskin would be a weapon that has identical stats to another. Extra/different voice lines aren't particularly important. » Cooper Kid (blether·contreebs) 18:58, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

Yes what's actually defined as a 'reskin' is currently unclear, but the list does serve a purpose. It is an informative list of weapons that function the same as others, but their outer appearance differs. Simply dumping this and taking up a category means there's less information like which weapons are reskins of what (which can't easily be determined by looking at Category:Reskins). Yes there are a heap of subtypes and special cases and other instances where "reskin" is technically incorrect, but that does not mean we should just stop trying to cover it because it's too hard. Why not split this page into sections? seb26 00:09, 23 August 2011 (PDT)

Reskin just seems like such an informal term with no in-game definition (as it isn't used in-game). In the game, the weapons are treated as unique weapons, as if they had unique stats. And if we're going to change the weapon table on the weapons page to lump together weapons with identical stats (which seems to be a popular action), then this article is going to seem less and less valuable. Balladofwindfishes 06:56, 23 August 2011 (PDT)

Agreed, this page has outlived its usefulness. Support moving the information to the relevant item pages and leaving them in a Category at best. coreycubed / talk 07:04, 23 August 2011 (PDT)

New importance = Greater need for definition

This is my definition of a reskin.

For a weapon to be a reskin of another, they must both

- Be used by the same character (or at least one of the same character if Pain Train etc. gets a clone)

- Be in the same loadout slot

- Have the same damage output in terms of damage/time unit, damage/individual hit, damage/m^2 (different spreads of shotgun for example) and damage output for different distances

- Have the same on-user effects

- Have the same hitbox size(s) and position (original has different hitbox positions initially to the rocket launcher)

- Cause the same amount of damage to the user

- Require the same play style for both weapons

- Have the same taunt effect (amputator is not a clone of bonesaw). Animation for the taunt may be different however.

- Have the same clip size

tl;dr: It does the same thing to both the user and any recipient, and goes about it in exactly the same way

Factors that do NOT change anything

- The texture or model (rocket jumper =/= rocket launcher)

- The UV mapping

- The effects on the dead body after death (Saxxy = Vanilla melee)

- The associated sound files (Frying pan = Shovel)

Does anyone have anything else to add or remove? If not, it should clear up a lot of things on this page. DVDV 00:57, 23 August 2011 (PDT)

Well said. » Cooper Kid (blether·contreebs) 04:31, 23 August 2011 (PDT)

I agree with this and the "fluff vs. crunch" definition provided by FaxCelestis. coreycubed / talk 07:04, 23 August 2011 (PDT)

That seems to be a thorough definition of a reskin. We should have this as the guidence for what constutes a reskin and what doesn't.MEDUNN 09:00, 23 August 2011 (PDT)