Team Fortress Wiki:Discussion

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Protecting class basic tips from tampering

I'm guessing a fair amount of new users make edits to the basic tips on the class pages that have to be undone. Maybe we should make subpages such as [[Class/tips]] that contain the basic tips and protect it with a reason like "Page has official, basic tips that should not be changed in any way". Even just including it as a separate page may turn away wikinoobs. I know List of official tips has been protected in the past for a similar reason, only really unprotected because those tips actually get updated. Toomai Glittershine 19:10, 23 October 2012 (PDT)

A simpler, and less restrictive (to actual editors--i.e. if it ever gets updated) solution would be to add __NOEDITSECTION__ to the section in question; thus it could only be edited from a general page edit. This would defer any casual editor; but can be circumvented by simply editing the entire page. Darkid (|) 19:13, 23 October 2012 (PDT)

Clarification: __NOEDITSECTION__ will remove all section edit links (i.e. [edit]) on the entire page—I'm still for this idea. Darkid (|) 20:00, 23 October 2012 (PDT)

Is it possible to have a page for those tips that are in consideration? This way people could submit tips they have found useful while playing for others to see. Or would that be just too much work? Lud1colo 18:19, 6 March 2013 (PST)

A bit of an old discussion. However, I feel you have missed the point of this section. The tips are not supposed to be edited. They are official! We have community strategy pages for user submissions. Darkid (|) 18:55, 6 March 2013 (PST)

Whoops, didn't look. Sorry. Lud1colo 15:19, 12 March 2013 (PDT)

Well,I only edited SOME stuff like degrootkeep trivia,tux,long way more from wiki cap :/ yunodie 14:33, 13 March 2013 (PDT)

What should we do to Template:Promo nav

It's really pain to edit this template and look that where are items in the promo and that promo item is for which slot (Weapons/Hats/Misc). My opinion are :

• Split this template to 3 pages of templates (Weapons Promo nav, Hats Promo nav and Misc Promo nav)
• Split this template to 3 categories but still on single template (Cause a lot of size larger and ugh! to editors)
• Split this template to 2 pages of templates (Games Promo nav and Events Promo nav)
• Do nothing

I don't think do nothing is the best way. I think we should do somethings before this template grow larger and harder to edit. Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions) 07:11, 27 February 2013 (PST)

Least edited languages

So i got bored today, and i decided to see what languages on the wiki are least edited. So, today is 3rd March, 02:50 PST, and i used 500 changes on 30 days.

Results: Below, but i decided to post only language edits i managed to count.
7.zh-hans, 53 edits
6.no, 48 edits
5.hu, 45 edits
4.tr, 43 edits
3.pt (not pt-br!),41 edits
2.da, 31 edits
Aand number one is ar, with...16 EDITS!

As you can see, we need bigger community for the arabian tf2 wiki.
\theguy299\talk\contribs\ 02:50, 3 March 2013

In pt I only saw User:Lumpy3 as active editor, he said it really huge job due low editor in pt. Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions) 03:46, 3 March 2013 (PST)

A more useful metric is here, and that would put arabic, hungarian, danish, portuguese, and turkish as the most needed languages. However, this entire discussion is rather moot since translations are on a volunteer, not commission, basis. Darkid (|) 05:18, 3 March 2013 (PST)

Competitive Section Rework

Hi all, I'm RJ, an aspiring contributor here.

I'm suggesting that we revamp the competitive section of this wiki. In its current state, it really only explains the the basics of each format, such as the class restrictions and the basic dynamics, when really there is much more to the competitive scene. For example, it doesn't cover common rollouts for maps, it doesn't cover common callout locations, it doesn't cover good Engineer spots for specific maps, and there are many other things that our current section doesn't cover. Also, it doesn't go into depth how someone interested in the format could get into competitive TF2.

I was discussing with Xenak that I would like to help out revamp the Competitive page on this wiki. I had the idea of listing all current weapon bans for each league, a short history on each game type, and general know-how on each game type. Though this might have already been discussed, I suggested that I add some more in-depth information about each league, division, or game type.

I have played in a few seasons of Highlander unofficially in High Gold and Low Platinum divisions, and have played a lot of PUGs and Scrims with some of the best players in the Highlander community--I've come to know them all, and I feel like I have the first hand experience!

I was also thinking of hopefully making the Competitive page more of an encyclopedia for all things competitive--from specific map strategies, to dynamics of specific maps as well. I suggested to link to specific video guides or text guides from Reddit and other sources from higher ranked players with their input on a specific idea.

With this idea of making the encyclopedia-style pages, I also suggest there be competitive version for the specific maps. On the main Competitive page, there could be a link to something along the lines of "Badlands (Competitive)" -- this page could be an in-depth look at the map itself. Include a bit of history of when the map came into the rotation for each league (Badlands may not work in this case, but maps like cp_process and cp_steel would be an example), specific callout locations, and specific strategies. If there are maps that are played in both Highlander and 6v6, there could be a specific section for both types--specific offclassing suggestions, which classes work and which do not.

The only concern here about these competitive versions of these maps would be picking which maps are to have their own page. The simple solution to this is to use the maps that leagues find acceptable. No need to vote on which maps get their own page; if ETF2L has koth_lolcano in it's rotation that season, and teams have strategies for it, then it will get it's own page!

If you think that the Competitive page needs a revamp or reformat, feel free to talk about it here!

RJ 21:02, 6 March 2013 (PST)

Badlands (competitive), etc. If you plan on doing a revamp, look at pages such as Soldier (competitive). Map pages are fair game, but large-scale revamps are going to need community agreement. Try to find a large enough (multiple teams) player basis to reach what looks like a naming convention consensus. Also, {{Weapon Ban List}}. Start looking here. Darkid (|) 21:07, 6 March 2013 (PST)

 Support I agree that the competitive section needs a rework. It really only offers the bare bones of competitive TF2, with little to no mention towards how to get started in competitive, or specific class strategies for specific maps. Improving these areas can possibly help introduce other people to the competitive scene who normally wouldn't bother, as it would provide a defined way to get involved in comp. Many people I've talked to are interested in it but have no idea where to even start, and maybe this new and improved section can serve as both a gateway for them and an vault of knowledge for any questions they might have. As it is right now, it just seems unfinished and unrefined, and hopefully we can change that. Just my 1/50th of a dollar. — Xenak (Talk|Contribs) 21:22, 6 March 2013 (PST)

Thanks for the ideas, you two! I'll see if I can get to work on gathering some consistent information from teams of various leagues and divisions. Maybe I could add a specific note on if specific places are called differently in different leagues? (An example would be that the Flank on Second near Gray Bridge on Badlands is called "Finland" in Europe) RJ 21:32, 6 March 2013 (PST)

Honestly, that'd be one of my later priorities. At this point, I feel that the three of us (hopefully more) should decide what area we should work on (maps, classes, matchups, e.g.) and work on cleanup. Maps is a pretty easy way to go, (which is not bad) but does take a lot of consistent names. One thing to do before you dive in would be to take a page (the badlands page e.g.) and devise a nicely-reading page layout. The current one feels droll to me, and besides you'd need to work in the class strategy. Darkid (|) 03:59, 7 March 2013 (PST)

How exactly does a user find out about competitive TF2 from the front page? There needs to be a link or listing under the index. If competitive TF2 is to stay above water, it needs all the exposure it can get. C0LD-- (talk) 20:28, 5 August 2013 (PDT)

Competitive TF2 is staying firmly above water, but its presence on the wiki is very minor. If it had a link on the main page, that would likely give it more exposure, but I don't think the articles are in any state as to be presentable. Most of them are stubs, or otherwise very complex. I think that they would need some more work (around a year's, with 3 editors) before being nicely formatted and easy to understand to someone who has never played competitive. The main problem with putting a link on the main page is that although it would generate traffic, most of the traffic would be players who had never played competitive before, and thus couldn't help to write/re-write the articles as they have no experience with the 6v6 or hl formats. Darkid (|) 05:34, 6 August 2013 (PDT)

Classes as Characters Section/Article

Hiya I'm Krubby. I noticed that nowhere on the wiki is there an in-depth description of the classes about them as characters. I was thinking there should be a section on each of their pages or a combined article for all describing their personality, interests, etc. Thanks! Krubby 09:50, 7 March 2013 (PST)

Hi there. I do agree that, for a game that is full of personality, some of the class articles are lacking with respect to describing the class's character. I don't think a whole section or new article is necessary, but rather a few more sentences about their personalities would be nice. —Moussekateer·talk 10:46, 7 March 2013 (PST)

Unpaintable hats in the Paintable hats table.

So I've been adding hats to the Paintable hats table as they come out. I've noticed that there are hats and miscs that are on the table that are unpaintable. So some input is needed. Should we include unpaintable hats on the table or not? Considering there are some already on them. Should we leave them or remove them? Ashes 12:08, 14 March 2013 (PDT)

Just forgot. Template:Paintable items list/All class items

I think we mustn't include a unpaintable hats table. I think we must delete unpaintable hats from the list.--MarcoDoctorwho 10:24, 17 March 2013 (PDT)

I'll split it as soon as I'm done with Update history... Rikka Takanashi (talk) • (contributions) 12:25, 17 March 2013 (PDT)

 Agree I don't see a need to keep all unpaintable hats in those lists -- so go ahead. – Epic Eric (T | C) 12:34, 17 March 2013 (PDT)

 Done Moved all unpaintable to Template:Unpaintable items list‎, took me 8 hours for only this template... Rikka Takanashi (talk) • (contributions) 03:06, 18 March 2013 (PDT)

About the "Marketable" in {{Item infobox‎}}

Hello, recently I have noticed that there's a "Marketable" info in infobox, which can identify the items can be sold or not. However, I think there's many problems with that.
The default setting of the info is "No" , but many genuine items can be sold onto the Market, and the label would still be "No" if no one put another setting inside the individual page. When the promo is over, the items become unique quality and thus cannot be sold. The editors need to do another edit to removed it. Plus, there's many tool items which is labeled "cannot be sold" at this moment. I personally think it is a huge work for every language to label or remove "market = yes" setting manually.
Due to the wrong info sometimes cause, I think either we removed the Market part in the infobox, or the codes inside the infobox should be modified. If we decided to removed it, then the Steam Community Market page can do the record job. I think the information there is already sufficient by displaying the rules of Market and record the items which can be sold with a template. In sum, I don't think the Marketable label is necessary in infobox. Please let me know what's your opinion on this or what shall we do with the template. Thanks.
07:42, 14 March 2013 (PDT)

I agree, I don't think that attribute is necessary. Mostly because I believe Valve intend to allow all items to be sold in the Steam Market in the near future, making this information nearly redundant. The Steam Community Market page should suffice for now until Valves plans are clearer. —Moussekateer·talk 18:37, 14 March 2013 (PDT)

Alright, let's kill dis — Wind 18:46, 14 March 2013 (PDT)

So...we can removed that area now? Or shall we wait for more comments about this? 00:58, 15 March 2013 (PDT)

Well, let's vote!

 Agree Remove it is better, maybe Valve will open to marketable all items soon. Rikka Takanashi (talk) • (contributions) 02:38, 15 March 2013 (PDT)

Don't be overly bureaucratic when you already know the majority supports it. -- Lagg 04:30, 15 March 2013 (PDT)

ded. is good — Wind 12:22, 15 March 2013 (PDT)

 Agree so much, is like a paradox. Example: A Genuine Ham Shank is not tradable yet, but the wiki says is Marketable. Is like a paradox --MarcoDoctorwho 08:34, 17 March 2013 (PDT)

Jumping#Sticky_jumps

Stickybomb Launcher and Sticky Jumper link to that section but it does not exist. I suggest changing the link to Jumping#Basic_sticky_jump. Teyandee 12:25, 23 March 2013 (PDT)

I went ahead and did it. For future reference, you don't need to ask permission to make a change like that - when it's small, and there's clearly a bug, go ahead and fix it. — Armisael (T · C) 12:30, 23 March 2013 (PDT)

Painted images. Specified guidelines/rules?

I'm bringing this up mainly because, Due to some confusion in the IRC. What would we think would be the "average" resolution for painted hats/miscs. Also any other guidelines that could possibly fit in. (unless it differs per hat) If there should be a set or at least a minimum resolution why have we not came up with one? Ashes 13:32, 23 March 2013 (PDT)

TheDoctor suggested it be at least 500 pixels. But, most of the images are under that suggestion. We would have to revamp many of the painted images. --Samuel Enthers 14:01, 23 March 2013 (PDT)

Perhaps specific resolutions based on size of hats and miscs. Ex. Small 500px Large: 600x (These are examples do not actually use them) Ashes 14:02, 23 March 2013 (PDT)

Off topic but along the same lines: many images have a visible fire overlay. This might not be visible in the small (thumbnail) images, but on the actual file page they are somewhat of a nuisance. Eels 14:07, 23 March 2013 (PDT)

The tale about the problems with resolutions and pictures: There was once a ballon item which isnt vertically much but horizontal a lot. There is a horizontal big hat but not much veritcally. ; (fairy tale ends) ; In the end i only suggested one restriction for this case: 500px . this can result in 100x500 or 500x100 or 500x500. All this depends on the hat. But to get at least a decent seeable quality i suggested 500px. I hope i didnt started something terrible. δ³Σx² > Add + or - skills for me 14:09, 23 March 2013 (PDT)

I think all of this is moot, just because the templates only need 150px images. --Samuel Enthers 16:16, 25 March 2013 (PDT)

When we decide on this, we can stop the link to the image itself. Because it doesnt get bigger. Which itself makes only thumbnails without a normal (hq) version pretty useless if you want to see it sharply. But the staff members havent said anything about this yet, so we wait for some official thoughts, maybe? δ³Σx² > Add + or - skills for me 05:33, 26 March 2013 (PDT)

There isn't any need for a specific minimum resolution as long as the final image looks good when viewed on its file page. If your monitor is set to at least 1280x1024 your images should be fine for the most part but again this depends on the type of image being taken. The problem with these images is not necessarily the final image resolution but things like transparency, rotation, aliasing, and texture resolution. Compare the most recent version of this file to the initial version, for instance. There are docs available, so if you're having a specific problem just ask. i-ghost 06:08, 26 March 2013 (PDT)

I don't understand something about the image. Is it supposed to be an improvement, or a downgrade? --Samuel Enthers 11:06, 26 March 2013 (PDT)

The recent version at that time had aliasing issues, sorry for not mentioning that. i-ghost 05:38, 22 May 2013 (PDT)

Navs

What should be done with multi-class items like Crafty Hair? Should they have the nav of every class that can wear the item, or just the general Hat nav? 5 navs plus the promo nav plus the hat nav just seems a tad exaggerated. Eels 14:05, 24 March 2013 (PDT)

The alternative is to add a "multi-class nav" which would result in things like the crafty hair being linked to on all the classes' pages, since each would need to transclude that template--each needs to reference their classes' items. This option allows each class to reference only and all of their own items. Darkid (|) 14:09, 26 April 2013 (PDT)

Disguise and Disguise Kit

I feel these should be merged onto Disguise Kit. No other class can disguise, and it's not exactly where one would expect to see the information in the first place. Darkid (|) 14:20, 26 April 2013 (PDT)

 Oppose One is about the item, the other is about the mechanic and all its gameplay implication. The former needs to exist, and the latter won't fit in the context of the former, because it goes in details like gameplay changes and hitboxes when disguised. These don't really belong on an item page. I think however that both articles merit a disambiguation link at the top linking to the other — Wind 14:25, 26 April 2013 (PDT)

+1 for the disambiguation link. i-ghost 05:38, 22 May 2013 (PDT)

Deleting the AA, AB, AC… disambiguation pages.

This seems to be a change that has already been decided on, but I'd like to see what the consensus is. The arguments I've heard so far are:
 Pro:

• Pages allow users to look up items more quickly, akin to an index

 Con:

• Pages are not necessary, "The wiki is not a rolodex"

Darkid (|) 12:21, 30 April 2013 (PDT)

It's not really something up for discussion. These pages really shouldn't have existed in the first place, because if you already know what you're looking for, you can go directly to the thing in question. The only purpose these pages serve is for useless trivia about how many different things the same abbreviation stands for. As I pointed out in IRC, such pages serve no purpose in languages outside of English, which complicates translation efforts considerably. On top of which, every time a new item, map, etc. comes out, it doubles the workload required to propagate the changes made, when the focus of the Wiki should be on documenting meaningful content (such as what the actual item does). -- LordKelvin 12:32, 30 April 2013 (PDT)

The abbreviation redirects make it a lot faster to navigate (typing wiki.tf/FJ is a lot faster than wiki.tf/Frontier_Justice), even if you know what you're looking for. I think they should be kept.

The abbreviation disambiguations pages don't make it faster to navigate, as generally the extra load time isn't worth the keystroke savings. It also doesn't make sense to translate them in the usual way. However, they are useful to newbies not knowing what some weapon abbreviation they've seen on a forum or chat log or whatever. This is a problem that exists, and which the wiki is probably the least-bad place to solve. However, perhaps disambiguation pages aren't the ideal solution to it. Instead, perhaps a single page such as Abbreviations would be in order. Translating such a page would make a little more sense as well, as the translated version of this page would contain abbreviations of the weapons in the other language (which, interestingly, would make it one of the few wiki pages to have its translated versions not directly follow the english version) — Wind 15:03, 30 April 2013 (PDT)

Another option is to add those abbreviations/most important ones into Glossary page. This will, however, raise a question of "what is considered as important abbreviation" and "should Glossary page be translated 'normally' from English page, or language-specifically, e.g. include language's own abbreviations, terms, etc, and not straight copy-paste-translate from English version". -Asplode 15:14, 30 April 2013 (PDT)

Coincidentally, this is exactly what Wiki editors should be doing by default when maintaining a page. These abbreviations and acronyms will fit just fine inside Glossary, instead of being spread out on what eventually amounted to a separate Wiki of its own in the form of a Rolodex. i-ghost 05:38, 22 May 2013 (PDT)

Here's the list of deleted abbreviations, for reference — Wind 12:23, 4 May 2013 (PDT)

Naming consistency.

I notice a difference between Sawmill (Capture the Flag) and Community Sawmill (CTF) Strategy. Should the latter be changed to read Community Sawmill (Capture the Flag) Strategy?
Note: This effects Capture the Flag (CTF), King of the Hill (KOTH), and Control Point (CP). Darkid (|) 16:01, 1 May 2013 (PDT)

Nope. i-ghost 16:11, 1 May 2013 (PDT)

Any particular reason? Darkid (|) 18:17, 1 May 2013 (PDT)

Not before you state why you want to move these pages first, no. i-ghost 06:10, 3 May 2013 (PDT)

One set is named incorrectly. This means that when listed in categories (Such as Category:Maps) they appear out-of-order. Darkid (|) 07:15, 6 May 2013 (PDT)

I'd say go ahead. It keeps things less confusing.  _{"Thanks, Doc!"} 11:22, 11 May 2013 (PDT)

Robo Keys And Items Ideas

Hi We Are All Wondering What Items And Key Designs That Are For The Robo-Crate.

I though Of This Idea

is that they'll be releasing a new MvM mission, which when completed in Mann up mode will reward you with a robo-key. This key will open the robo-crate, which will contain any one of the newly released Mk. II stranges, or unusual robo-hats.

In The Crates You Would Think Of Nuts N Bults As the Effect

but I think differently. Maybe Its Some Sort Of Poison oribiting the hat

You Can Email Me If u Have any Other Ideas

But I Didn't Mention the Key

I Think It Would Be Like a Metal Key All Siver But With Nuts in it

Email Me If u have some ideas :)

— The preceding unsigned comment was added by Y0L0 McSwag :D (talk) • (contribs)

Speculation goes to SPUF, thanks. -Asplode 11:00, 14 May 2013 (PDT)

I hate to be a killjoy but…

I was trying to clean up Category:Templates, which could be used to create a more comprehensive list of templates in use on the wiki. In cleaning it up, I encountered quite a bit of randomness... including a few user templates (Which shouldn't ideally be in the category) and a few horridly outdated and/or humorous (perish the thought) templates. The question I'd like to ask is:
Should this category be cleaned out and re-purposed (including the deletion, re-purposing, or re-categorization of the random templates) or should it remain the way it is, in a general state of disrepair? Darkid (|) 11:35, 18 May 2013 (PDT)

I don't see anything wrong with the templates. --Samuel Enthers 13:08, 20 May 2013 (PDT)

Some are merely unused, others are simply out-of-use, and there is the thought that things should be cleaned up. Darkid (|) 13:20, 20 May 2013 (PDT)

Being unused or out of use does not qualify a template for being removed from a category. That category exists both as a root for the sub-categories and for templates which don't fit the sub-categories; please use your own judgement to recategorise anything you feel is out of place (or leave it as it is if a template is fine where it is). The user templates should have their categorisations commented-out in their source. i-ghost 05:38, 22 May 2013 (PDT)

I don't know if this is related, but the templates on a number of strange weapons don't work. --Jchenx

Add in robot responses and voice lines?

I have noticed that there is no real directory for all of the MvM robot responses and voice lines, While it is true that these are just modified versions of the default player voices, they all have their own separate sound files in the .VPK sound directory. I believe that in the interest of full information, we should add in these sound files to a separate page like the player responses do. --Samuel Enthers 09:08, 20 May 2013 (PDT)

I noticed the same thing and I'd love to upload them for you but I don't understand the new VPK system. If you could explain it to me I'd gladly do it for you. Eels 09:14, 20 May 2013 (PDT)

Thanks for the help. All of my trouble is in designing and making a new page, however. I'll make a cheat sheet for the VPK system. --Samuel Enthers 11:23, 20 May 2013 (PDT)

The Wiki is not a mirror for all game content. It is sufficient to simply state that the lines are altered versions of the originals, with perhaps an example or two, rather than mirror the existing response pages. i-ghost 05:38, 22 May 2013 (PDT)

Naming consistency for navigational templates?

A variety of major templates on this wiki are named according to different conventions. Would it be worth it (Simple moves suffice--they do not break templates) to pick a particular naming scheme and change all the templates to match it?
Some possibilities are:

• No spaces, capitalize the first letter of every word: {{ScoutUpdateNav}}, {{ScreamFortressNav}}
• Spaces, capitalize the first letter of every word: {{Class Nav}}, {{Soldier Nav}}
• Spaces, capitalize the first letter only: {{Second community update nav}}, {{All class nav}}

Darkid (|) 08:50, 27 May 2013 (PDT)

Table showing item conditions on it's page

Every page I see on TF2 wiki has the item and tells how it was put into the game. However, no page mentions what conditions the item comes in, such as vintage, genuine, unusual, ect. However, there is a page dedicated to showing what items were made in these conditions, but I believe it would be more convenient for users to find the item's page and see what conditions it exists in, or has existed in.

Another note on this: it would also show items that are not on the main pages (like the Vintage page) for showing items in a certain condition. For example: Vintage bills hat. Look at the vintage page and see if you can find it. You won't find it because it's not there. Even though it is a glitched item, it still potentially exists and should be shown on wiki somehow that this item in vintage quality exists.

We don't include items like the Vintage Bills since there are only 2-5 original ones; the remainder were duped long ago. However, we do have Item quality/Possible hat qualities, Item_quality/Possible_weapon_qualities, and Item_quality/Possible_miscellaneous_item_qualities Darkid (|) 14:42, 29 May 2013 (PDT)

More on this - even though there are those two pages you stated, they don't contain all possible qualities. I'm looking at a convenient way to check every item in ALL it's existing qualities (I'm hoping even glitched or not, I.E Vintages), not just tangible qualities. The table would have hidden qualities for certain items such as a hat having strange quality. --General Cap 20:23, 19 June 2013 (PDT)

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Lightbox style viewer for gallery images

I propose installing a lightbox viewer for gallery images (and thumbnails) on the wiki. For a preview you can look at the portal wiki and try clicking on a gallery image. What think? —Moussekateer·talk 15:51, 2 June 2013 (PDT)

  I think this is a great idea, especially for comic pages. Eels 15:56, 2 June 2013 (PDT)

  All I can see lifting from that template is the click-expand image. Since we dont' have a clear listing of items (test chambers) nor a specific set of items (chamber hazards) I don't quite see what we would change. Darkid (|) 16:05, 2 June 2013 (PDT)

My reasoning is that most users click on gallery images to see the larger image, and do not actually want anything from the File: page. This gives them that ability with the added bonus of allowing them to quickly browse through all the gallery images instead of clicking one, clicking back to the article and clicking another image. Plus if they actually do want to reach the File: page the option is still there. —Moussekateer·talk 16:08, 2 June 2013 (PDT)

I wasn't saying I didn't want the expand-click, but I just had never heard the term "lightbox viewer", then. Darkid (|) 16:23, 2 June 2013 (PDT)

  Definitely something that we should have had for a while. – Smashman _(talk) 16:30, 2 June 2013 (PDT)

The preceding discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

expired promo

is there a way to show that a promo has expired and is not obtained by buying a game now? Magicalpony (talk) 07:09, 5 June 2013 (PDT)

A) "This item was awarded in Genuine quality to players who pre-ordered X on Steam before Y."

B) Promotional items

Zabidenu

(contribs ▪ talk) 07:12, 5 June 2013 (PDT)

Dictionary's Diet

Today I want to ask you some important question. We have a Template:Dictionary/items which is nearly 1 MB of plain text. This is really heavy. I suggest you take a dictionary items on a... inquisition diet. What do I mean? We have a lot of items having the same name on both English and foreign languages. I think we can freely delete these "translations". Why do we need an entry of en=Menpo;fr=Menpo;ge=Menpo;es=Menpo ? I suggest deleting all repetitive strings due to their futility. by Limie Pie 03:25, 11 June 2013 (PDT)

Are you calling the dictionary fat? Rude. The reason those duplicate strings exist in other languages is because that is the official translation. If they weren't there then translators would have no idea if that meant the string was the same as the English one or the translation hadn't been added yet by an editor. —Moussekateer·talk 03:30, 11 June 2013 (PDT)

Major Updates vs Content Packs

As you may have noticed, I've suggested some of the "update" pages to be moved and recategorized. This was made due to recent discussion about Major Updates navigation box. So here is the difference stated by Valve: Major Update is the massive update involving new gameplay, system or rewarding features; it may or may not contain any items at all; if big update has a big amount of items added but has minor gameplay influence, that it is a content pack. Due to that I may hardly call all Contribution Packs, Grordbort's Victory Pack and Community Map Pack updates. These were patches with some content added. by Limie Pie 10:34, 11 June 2013 (PDT)

Unfortunately, some of the leadup to this discussion was spread out across a few pages (1 2 3 4). This seems to be as a follow-up to This discussion as an unintended side-effect. I'm all for it--provided that we all accept the change in the first place. Darkid (|) 11:19, 11 June 2013 (PDT)

Any questions on why am I doing stuff without "discussing" it? by Limie Pie 09:28, 17 June 2013 (PDT)

You seem to be making somewhat of a semantics argument. Update and Patch are interchangeable, the word Update doesn't really always mean major updates and never really has. The patch we had a few hours ago, Eric Smith called "update" so this is just making distinctions for words that don't need to exist. Valve's official name for the first contribution update was "First Contribute Update" so what are you arguing exactly? Balladofwindfishes (talk) 20:55, 19 June 2013 (PDT)

Halloween 2012 Paint spells: Unique page

I just came up with an idea it would be convenient to just have all paint spells on one page so you won't have to search for them one page at a time. I think this would be useful to users who come to TF2 wiki as it would save time and would be convenient. It may be useful in the future if more paint spells come out. The spells page can be found here: Halloween Spells --General Cap 08:50, 20 June 2013 (PDT)

Similar to Paint Can? – Smashman _(talk) 19:57, 19 June 2013 (PDT)

Even though they're already expired, they're still available to use and it's a paint... I am for the idea but adding these paints to a table for example would probably be hard since they're switching the colors. Light08 (talk) 10:31, 20 June 2013 (PDT)

Half-Life map articles on the wiki

I know I discussed this topic a while ago, but as far as I remember, the votes were highly mixed.

In my opinion, the articles about the Half-Life maps such as Boot Camp (Classic) are inappropriate on the wiki.

The maps were never intended to be played in Team Fortress Classic. They just (hardly) work in TFC because Half-Life is running on the same engine.

A popular argument in the previous discussion was that the maps were popular on TFC servers. However, I can't find any TFC server running a Half-Life map: servers 1 servers 2.

The articles contain the same text, what only differs are the images and the titles.

These maps are not custom maps for TFC (as they were called before I reorganized them today), they are official maps for HL. Simply launching a map from a game A in a game B doesn't make it a custom map for the game B, it is still either official or custom map for the game A.

So there is no reason to keep the articles about the maps on the wiki. The maps are for Half-Life, not Team Fortress. We are a Team Fortress wiki, not a Half-Life wiki.

As Combine OverWiki is in the VWN too, if we move the articles to it, they will still be somehow linked to our wiki. SiPlus 07:11, 4 July 2013 (PDT)

I vote for:

• Making a Half-Life maps (Classic) article listing all the maps, along with one or two screenshots of each, and perhaps a link to the proper dedicated map article on the Combine OverWiki
• Redirecting all current map articles to this list article
• Getting rid of {{TFC hl maps nav}}

— Wind 19:13, 4 July 2013 (PDT)

That's what I thought. There's List of maps (Classic) article, which already lists the maps. But what about, instead of having the redundant map images and list on the wiki, simply saying on the List of maps (Classic) (or even Team Fortress Classic, because List of maps (Classic) is a database, and Team Fortress Classic lists game modes and trivia) page something like this: "If a map doesn't provide rules for any game mode (for example, if it was made for another GoldSrc game like Half-Life), a four-team deathmatch can be played on it." Half-Life maps are not that exceptional to be listed on a separate page, they are played on 0 servers, just like CS, DMC, DoD, Gunman, HLOF and Ricochet maps, but we don't list these. SiPlus (talk) 01:55, 5 July 2013 (PDT)

3D view models for Hats and Miscs

(Not an original idea, but hey, seems useful.)

So here's what this idea is all about: a lot of 3D view models for weapons have already been made for TF2 wiki. But what about hats and miscs? Either they don't exist or there is a very small amount of these pages with these 3D view models. There are also pages in the weapons category missing 3D view models, and those pages have this problem stated at the top of the page. (That's how I came by this idea) So, what should we do? --General Cap 11:59, 6 July 2013 (PDT)

I can't offer a definite answer for this, but I think that the 3D Models thing isn't done for hats/miscs because of the sheer amount of them, and how quickly there would be new items added. There would very quickly end up with a huge overload of them. Again, I can't say this for sure, this is just what I seem to remember Moussekateer saying when I went over the 3D Models page to update it for Steampipe. --Omolong (talk) 12:04, 6 July 2013 (PDT)

I was thinking it would take up too much space as well, and I was kind of hoping I wasn't the only one who thought of this. The wiki data space has expanded thpugh, so perhaps one day we may see this come into effect. --General Cap 12:33, 6 July 2013 (PDT)

Oh, no, I don't mind space, I mean the workload that people would have to go through would be quite a lot to cover all the hats/miscs that are added, plus keep up with new items that are added. I think you'd probably have to do red team and blue team ones (if the model has them) and then do the paint colours as well (if the model has them), which leads to there being 37/38 of the 3D Models for each item that needs it. --Omolong (talk) 12:39, 6 July 2013 (PDT)

I don't think paint colors would really be necessary. But it still would be a very big undertaking. – Smashman _(talk) 13:50, 6 July 2013 (PDT)

Javascript KAPUTT (?)

I asked yesterday for a fix. Text:
Someone pls try to fix javascript error on [Show] click to see what contains what ;;; example: Critical_hits#Special_cases << try to click [SHOW] on "List of weapons able to deal random and situational critical hits" >>>>>results in: javascript:collapseTable(0); > false ;

Just wanted an update on the priority on this one. Thanks δ³Σx² > Add + or - skills for me 04:28, 12 July 2013 (PDT)

Fixed now. —Moussekateer·talk 19:27, 12 July 2013 (PDT)

Bullet spread

I was recently testing out bullet spread for shotguns, scatterguns, etc. and was wondering if this information could be fitted into the "Damage and Function times" template (here). I'm fairly comfortable as to the formatting, but I'm not quite sure as to how to word it. As you may recall, items in this template are listed with a descriptor to the left with the text to the right, as seen below. Tooltips can be added to either item.

Text

Parameter

However, I'm not quite sure how to put the following statement elegantly as to fit neatly into this table:
For every 30 hammer units you are away from the target, the shotgun's bullets will deviate up to 1 hammer unit laterally.

Any ideas? Darkid (|) 14:27, 28 July 2013 (PDT) (Sidenote: Should this fact be included in the pistol/minigun/smg pages?)

For lack of followup, I will implement this change in a week. Darkid (|) 14:09, 7 August 2013 (PDT)

Color consistency

All of the class files File:Scout.png, File:Soldier.png, File:Pyro.png etc are all RED pictures. However, File:Spy.png is not RED, but instead we have File:Spy RED.png. This is annoying, particularly for templates. Would it be possible/practical to switch the two of these? Darkid (|) 13:49, 29 July 2013 (PDT)

For lack of followup, I will implement this change in a week. Darkid (|) 14:09, 7 August 2013 (PDT)

Category:Languages

This currently only holds Category:Main in different languages. This is highly useless, as it would make more sense to have Main be the top category. The languages should be subcategories of Main, much like Category:Disambiguation. Darkid (|) 15:49, 16 August 2013 (PDT)

PlayStation Button Templates

Hey. I had a look on the Taunts page, realizing a very minor issues with the button templates.

1)Wiki rules donot allow images in text, so all buttons should belong in template form, as it wont be accesible to everyone easily.

2)The PlayStation ones would look more appealing and more familiar to players if it were changed from this : to 20px. If this is accepted. I will make the background of the button transparent.

Notes:

• The file is a .PNG
• The square is the same one as before
• The circle is made by me

That's all, thanks. --DiscoDiva (talk) 01:06, 21 August 2013 (PDT)

Would have been easier to have just uploaded over the previous version instead of having 2 different ones. Ashes (talk) 02:18, 21 August 2013 (PDT)

He wanted to check if it was good first. It would be ideal, as DiscoDiva said in 1) for this to work similarly to Template:Key, and thus be a template. However, some nicer images are never bad. Darkid (|) 06:04, 21 August 2013 (PDT)

So shall I get going and make the nicer images in a template form? No worries, I know that stuff. Just wanted an approval.--DiscoDiva (talk) 23:15, 22 August 2013 (PDT)

By "template form" I meant without images--i.e. a "square" character on a black background, or something. Darkid (|) 06:52, 23 August 2013 (PDT)

Yeah, I'll make the template pages, so they are accesible to however wants to use by just writing the text. Shall I proceed? --DiscoDiva (talk) 09:41, 23 August 2013 (PDT)

WP:BeBold! Go for it. Darkid (|) 09:51, 23 August 2013 (PDT)

Okee doke. I uploaded the new versions and made the separate template pages for the first batch of buttons. You can see my work here and add anything that would help and make it more convenient, if you wish.

• Template:PS Square
• Template:PS X
• Template:PS Circle
• Template:PS Triangle

There are still a few format issues on the template page, though. --DiscoDiva (talk) 23:46, 31 August 2013 (PDT)

I changed from normal link to wiki link one, please use [[ and ]] to create the link that're in this wiki. Rikka Takanashi (talk) • (contributions) 00:23, 1 September 2013 (PDT)

I now realize that I didn't make myself clear--I was hoping for one template, like {{Playstation Button}} which took a parameter (Square, X, Circle, Triangle). Templates are nice for shortcuts, but if they transclude an image then certain things (like width, alt-text, etc) can't be set. Darkid (|) 12:25, 1 September 2013 (PDT)

As in merging them in one template page? Well, I did tried that, but I decided to what I was able to do better. Atleast they are there. --DiscoDiva (talk) 06:24, 3 September 2013 (PDT)

I merged them quickly into one template and you can find the result from {{PSTemplate}}. Due to quick merge its name is what it is and it just directs to those PS Square, X, etc templates at this moment, but those can be quickly changed if needed. -Asplode (talk) 07:41, 3 September 2013 (PDT)

I've gone ahead and merged this all into {{PS Button}}. Please try not to over-think templates, it will save you headaches in the long-run. i-ghost (talk) 14:43, 31 October 2013 (PDT)

Adding file names to items

Should we add where items can be found in the files to hats and weapons pages? A lot of the files are counter-intuitively named and it makes it hard to find particular items in Source Film Maker. Guybrush20X6 (talk) 08:13, 3 September 2013 (PDT)

I think that adding that information to every single weapon and item page might be worth less than the time it takes to do it; however, if you'd be willing to meet halfway and have a single page with all of that information listed (basically a list of the names, images, and location of the weapon/item in question) in a nice template, I'd love to have that resource around. ~Sven~ (talk) 08:16, 3 September 2013 (PDT)

Yes, it's called the item schema. This discussion has been shot down before. i-ghost (talk) 14:43, 31 October 2013 (PDT)

The Wiki Cap: Recognition or Reward?

I've been hearing a lot of chatter recently (and in general, too) about people who hop on the wiki and try to get a Wiki Cap. These people tend to be misguided, assuming that they can do this quickly and with little effort, but it raises a larger question: Is the Wiki Cap viewed as recognition for one's work on the wiki, or is it a reward to encourage editors? (Alternately, both.)

I feel like this question merits some discussion on the wiki, but I also looked to see what the current opinion seems to be. In other words, I calculated some statistics about the 144 current Wiki Cap owners. The raw data is here, but before getting into that I'd like to summarize some key results:

1. A large majority of users (83%) who get a Wiki Cap lose interest in editing afterwards, that is to say their edits per day drops by a factor of 3+ (I.e. from 10 edits per day to 3 edits per day).
2. Of this majority, a further 18% (15% overall) stopped editing completely, which is to say their edits per day dropped by a factor of 100+ (From 10 edits per day to 1 edit per 10 days).
3. A mere 9 users (6%) showed an increase in edit rate after getting a Wiki Cap. Of these 9 users, 5 showed increases in editing by over 50% (From 10 edits per day to 15 edits per day).

Some general notes about this data:

• The data is compiled from Wiki-Fi and reflects the accuracy present there.
  • As a result, the data is only accurate to 3 decimal places due to the accuracy of the cumulative edits statistic on stats.wiki.tf.
• This table does not account for the fact that editors may not have started editing when they created their account, or that they may not have been editing actively until a few months after their first edit.
  • As a result, editors who had long "dry" stretches at the beginning of their wiki lives may have under-represented productivity drops, as their productivity prior to getting a Wiki Cap will be under-represented.
• Wiki Caps were decided to be awarded at some delay to them being received.
• Certain users had Wiki Caps awarded to them based on work unrelated to editing. This affects only 3 users as I see, and should not have too great an impact on the overall data.

This data seems to imply that the Wiki Cap is a reward, but the question still remains if this is the correct mindset.
Darkid (|) 12:55, 15 September 2013 (PDT)

It can be the golden fleece for all I care if it properly incentivizes useful contributions to the wiki. In the end this is more valuable than a single given person quitting editing after they get one. Recognition, reward, bragging rights. It's all the same in the end as long as it compels people to be useful. Even considering the people that think there is some kind of magic number of edits and that it's the same thing as a promo item and their edit quality reflects that mindset, their collective contributions probably outweigh what a single person could do. -- Lagg 13:24, 15 September 2013 (PDT)

By the time somebody actually achieves the Wiki Cap, they have already done so much for the Wiki that they wouldn't even need to contribute anymore. While it's sad to lose such a helpful editor, they've already dramatically improved the Wiki to the point that they feel like their duty is complete. Although this isn't true for translators and the like (because how many people who speak Japanese are playing TF2?), on the English Wiki things will manage fine without them. After all, how many people would actually be on the Wiki if it wasn't for the hope of a one-of-a-kind cap? --Samuel Enthers 14:09, 24 September 2013 (PDT)

Crafting Australian Christmas and Pyromania item set hats

The hats and cosmetics associated with these sets have only been recently instated as being part of an actual set:

Big Chief, Scotch Bonnet, Berliner's Bucket Helm, Fed-Fightin' Fedora, Dillinger's Duffel Bag, Helmet Without a Home, Captain's Cocktails, Liquidator's Lid

Can anyone confirm that their crafting recipes exist as well? e.g. 4 Refined Metal and set weapon creates the hat

13:33, 17 September 2013 (PDT)

When I go into Fabricate Set Headgear, the game allows me to use the caber (big chief) crossbow (bucket helm), so I assume it works. Darkid (|) 13:58, 17 September 2013 (PDT)

There was a note on the Big Chief discussion page about the crafting page recognizing the blueprint, but not following through after pressing Craft. I can't seem to find where crafting recipes are located in the schema files and I'm not sure if people want to actually use metal for this. 14:19, 17 September 2013 (PDT)

They are not in the schema, they are server-based (much like crate unboxing). Thus, it's quite likely that if a bug becomes documented, valve can fix it on their end. Darkid (|) 18:03, 17 September 2013 (PDT)

Strategy section overhaul

I'd really like to start an effort to reorganize the whole of the strategy pages as much of the data in them is out of date and I don't think they're organized very efficiently anyway. There's a lot of redundant - and possibly conflicting - info. The current system is:

• Basic Strategy - General class strategy and basic weapon tactics. It's all fairly brief and highly curated; "official" in a sense.
• Class Match-Ups - How that class fares against any other class, also fairly succinct.
• Anti-Class Strategy - Info for going up against a class and their weapons. Another "basic" article.
• Community Strategy - Class strategy, weapon tactics, match-ups against classes, pairings with classes, loadout recommendations... All less monitored but more detailed than the previous three.

It seems really inefficient to lump all the scattered community data into one page but have the brief "curated" stuff in separated pages when they could fit in one page much more easily than all the community stuff while remaining easy to monitor and keep up-to-date. Thus, I propose:

• Overall Strategy - A merge of the basic strategy and class match-up articles, along with new "general" class pairing info and basic weapon loadout examples (stock loadout, defined sets like Special Delivery or Hibernating Bear). The data from the anti-class page would also be merged in by not only providing strategy for each weapon in their sections, but also against it, eliminating the need for a separate article. A "cheat-sheet," if you will.
• Community Tactics - Community class strategy and weapon tactics. Should be much easier to manage if it's just in its own article, and keep track of when data becomes outdated. Like the new overall data page, would also contain data against each weapon as well as for it.
• Match-Ups/Pairings - The match-up/pairing info from the current community pages. Each article is into two halves: match-ups against enemy classes, and pairing tactics with friendly classes.
• Loadout Recommendations - A page for community loadout recommendations. Each recommendation has a title or brief description, the loadout, an explanation, and both the name of the submitter and the date of submission, in order to gauge how up-to-date a recommendation is in light of ongoing balance patches.

But yeah. Basically group all the "general" data while the community data is split up into pages. VinLAURiA (talk) 03:20, 18 September 2013 (PDT)

The only issue with this major grouping is the page size. One of the reasons I still (rarely) use the strategy pages is because I can quickly find the relevant counter-class or counter-weapon strategy. I'm not sure if this is just me, but with this rework, try to keep in mind readability. Darkid (|) 05:39, 18 September 2013 (PDT)

 Support This overhaul would be an extremely clean way to display all of the relevant information, unlike the clutter we have now. --Samuel Enthers 16:34, 21 September 2013 (PDT)

Eradicating the <tt> element

The <tt> element is a presentation element and fails to indicate the semantic context of the contents. As such it has been removed in HTML 5.[1]

I want to clean the wiki of it and replace it with semantic markup instead. But it is a big job and I can't do it alone.

Can I please get some help?

I first want to find a list of suitable replacements. Marking everything with <code> elements is not optimal here. We want templates like Cvar that can be given complicated code as needed.

Only after the correct replacements are figured out can a proper cleanup be done.--Henke37 (talk) 12:47, 18 September 2013 (PDT)

What kind of markup are we talking about here? --Samuel Enthers 13:57, 24 September 2013 (PDT)

About quotes

Moved from User talk:Rikka Takanashi
Most of the quotes on the wiki are supplemented by a little extra detail, perhaps to add context or to make a joke to an otherwise empty phrase. However, not all of the quotes on the hat and weapon pages has that additional wording, especially on some of the older pages. Naturally, this creates a problem with consistency. I wanted to fix the consistency issue by adding in more information to these quotes not only to make them more appealing, but to keep every page on the Wiki on an equal level. In this case, it is very necessary to add in extra details for the sake of improving the Wiki. You don't have a problem with this, I assume? --Samuel Enthers 17:22, 18 September 2013 (PDT)

I don't think so. Why we need to add little extra information? Also on the page that added to make it "not same" as another page that use the same quote or the quote that can't fit with the article. Those pages I removed because the quotes already fit the page, no need to expand. Rikka Takanashi (talk) • (contributions) 17:30, 18 September 2013 (PDT)

It's just a formality. We need to add information to make it more professional. If nobody needed to add any more information to the end of quotes, then why do we have them on such articles like the Crafty Hair, the Dillinger's Duffel, and the Bolt Boy? It's because not only does it tie into TF2's comedic and not-so-serious universe, but because at the end of the day it just looks better. It looks like more work has been put into the article, just by adding in one sentence. It works wonders on adding a little more to the already-bare cosmetic pages, and it's painless without causing any trouble. Just because something doesn't need to be done, doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Look at the Glossary of Player Terms, for example. We could manage just fine as a Wiki without adding in that page. But we did, and it's one of the most useful pages on the Wiki by rounding out it's general content. I really don't see a problem here. --Samuel Enthers 17:41, 18 September 2013 (PDT)

I think we should move this thread to General discussion to make it more clear, should we? Because I never think it's necessary unless it needs to specific to fit the items like Spy-cicle ("I see spy!" is not fit unless we added that the Heavy played pun to "Icy spy!") Rikka Takanashi (talk) • (contributions) 01:36, 19 September 2013 (PDT)

It was a good call moving this to the general discussion. Clearly we weren't going to settle this on our own. For the reasons stated above, I'll have to add in my  Support. --Samuel Enthers 14:58, 19 September 2013 (PDT)

 Oppose, with reason above. Rikka Takanashi (talk) • (contributions) 16:49, 19 September 2013 (PDT)

Create a standardized format for the Community Strategy articles?

Some of my favorite articles on the Wiki to read and edit are the Community Strategy Pages. However, I've noticed that they're a bit of a mess. The formatting and style is very inconsistent with one another, with sections and content having different names and placement. It annoys me that there isn't much consistency for such an important part of the Wiki. It's time to create a format that will lessen confusion among readers who go through the strategy pages often, and to make things nice and organised for all. I've developed the following format for strategy pages that combines all of the content from all 9 class pages that I think will work well. Of course, it isn't set in stone.

Lead section Paragraph and summary about the classes specific playstyles and unique abilities, as well as the general specs of each one (E.G. health, speed, etc.). The goal is to provide a brief overview of the class in a more in-depth summary than the classes main pages, without going too into detail so it isn't hard to read through.

1. Quick Tips Little "Protips" specific to the individual class. These provide little bits of strategy that the basic player can understand and carry out. They're like the in-game tips that you see on the bottom-left corner of the load screen.

2. General These are general bits of strategy that aren't weapon specific but apply only to abilities that the specific class can carry out or will find use in. A Soldier general tip shouldn't apply to the Pyro, etc. This section leads into the next section.

2.1 Class specific ability #1

2.2 Class specific ability #2

2.3 Class specific ability #3 These 3 subsections are designed to provide more in-depth strategy about the classes' specific abilities in a detailed and specific way. The goal is to only take the abilities that the specific classes will find a use for (E.G. Build locations for the Engineer, Headshots for the Sniper, Rocket Jumping for the Soldier) and create much more detailed strategies for them that other classes won't be able to make use of. Obviously we're not going to make a section about jumping for the Heavy because he almost never jumps in combat, but a section about jumping for the Scout will be extremely useful because jumping is one of the Scout's main combat strategies.

3. Weapon Specific

3.1 Primary Weapons (except Spy)

3.2 Secondary Weapons

3.3 Melee Weapons

3.4 Secondary PDA (Spy only)

3.5 Buildings (Spy only) These subsections are designed to provide more information and strategy about the specific weapons that the class uses that wouldn't apply in general strategy. The first sentence would be an overview about the weapons stats, and the rest of the section would be the actual strategy and tips. The Spy is a special case because he has no primary weapon, but instead has Sappers and Watches to talk about.

4. Buildings (Engineer only) The Engineer's buildings are obviously very different from the weapons he uses, so obviously they get their own sections and strategy.

4.1 Sentry Gun

Level 1

Level 2

Level 3

4.2 Dispenser

Level 1

Level 2

Level 3

4.3 Teleporter

Level 1

Level 2

Level 3

4.4 Combat Mini-Sentry Gun These sections are supposed to provide placement and maintenance strategies for the specific buildings and levels. As the Engineer's buildings level up the strategies change as well. The Engineer article should be more accommodating of these minute differences in building strategies and not just group all 3 levels together.

4. Taunt attacks Much like the weapon strategy above, but only for specific taunt attacks.

5. Weapon Combinations This section focuses on weapon loadouts and specific strategies for use with them, much like we already have.

6. Class Priority (Medic, Sniper, and Spy only) The Medic, Sniper, and Spy play much differently than the other classes, where they have to choose what classes they target in order to ensure positive results. Because of this, it would be beneficial to the strategy page if the 3 classes had a numbered list of classes that they need to target first so that they know what the best classes to kill/heal would be.

6. Cooperative Class Strategies This section is designed to create new strategies that are specific to teamwork with 2 or more players of different classes. They involve thinking outside of the box, encouraging team play, and making comparisons between two classes in a unique way.

7. Other class specific strategies Sometimes we can't say all that we can about a class in just 6 sections. Sometimes we need to go further to go more in detail about the class, such as with the Spy. If it is necessary, we can add in these strategies somewhere within the article, not necessarily #7.

Of course, this is just my idea. But I hope that we can work together to revitalise and reinvent the Community Strategy Pages so that they can be restored to their former glory. --Samuel Enthers 12:24, 24 September 2013 (PDT)

Looks like you've put a lot of thought into this layout, and the strategy pages really could do with an overhaul. Maybe if you could try throwing together an example page in your own namespace so more people can see how it would look? » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 03:36, 25 September 2013 (PDT)

 Agree'd The Community Stratedgy articles are the most messy ones, if I were a staff member, I'd give this the green light! StarHorder 08:24, 25 September 2013 (PDT)

Like Cooper Kid said, I want to see it on the page rather than in comment. I can't imagine clearly. And RobTheStarCollector, next time use {{c}} template instead of Pro and Con one. Rikka Takanashi (talk) • (contributions) 08:48, 25 September 2013 (PDT)

Alright everybody, it's all in the works. I'm making a markup in my user namespace and it will be done when I have an hour of free opportunity. It should be complete in a few hours at this time of posting, but I'm just letting you know that I am working on it. I really appreciate the support though! --Samuel Enthers 11:14, 25 September 2013 (PDT)

I've finished up the example! I've added in relevant information in bold. I can re-write the whole Spy article to fit in with this template, but I just need permission to go ahead and do that. What does everybody think? --Samuel Enthers 17:42, 25 September 2013 (PDT)

Also, if this goes until Monday with no objections, I will go ahead and implement this to the articles. After a thorough rewrite of course. --Samuel Enthers 07:28, 27 September 2013 (PDT)

I question the need for a template--as opposed to {{Match-Up}}, there's negligible formatting--but the formatting is good overall. I question (for engineer) the need for subheadings for different levels of anything but sentries. TOC limit is fun, but the most useful subsection headers are probably the weapon subheaders. Also specifically, how is an engineer a more important target than a medic? Darkid (|) 07:49, 27 September 2013 (PDT)

Now, this isn't a template per say. It's a guideline that I just whipped up together in my user space. It's used to help us with rewriting the strategy pages without being cast in stone. I mostly copied what the strategy pages already have while reformatting it myself, so it isn't meant to be a re-write yet. Also, if there's an Engineer on the enemy team you're not going to waste time on the Medic, you're going to sap all of his buildings and kill him. --Samuel Enthers 08:33, 27 September 2013 (PDT)

Standardizing the formatting is a good idea, but may I recommend combining this with my categorization suggestion above so that all the community stuff isn't lumped together. You were already in support of that, right? VinLAURiA (talk) 16:18, 29 September 2013 (PDT)

503 errors everywhere!

From any device I use, the site takes like 3 minutes to load and frequently gets 503s. Either it's just me, or the wiki needs a fix. Sometimes I accidentally make double edits or it never submits. ErnieTheGreatest (talk) 18:14, 31 October 2013 (PDT)

Can't do much about it. Its site traffic. Either wait or edit at a later time. There really is no fix. Ashes (talk) 18:16, 31 October 2013 (PDT)

This happens every major update. Wait a few days for it to pass. VinLAURiA (talk) 02:41, 2 November 2013 (PDT)

This has been happening way before the major updates--in fact, I'd associate the time with when we upgraded mediawiki (although I doubt this *caused* the problem). Darkid (|) 09:24, 2 November 2013 (PDT)

Renaming Scream Fortress 2013 to Helloween Special

Similar to how last year's Spectral Halloween Special was taken from the subtitle, I figured we'd keep things consistent by also doing the same thing this year instead of the generic title we have now. I actually tried to do this myself, but I'm pretty green when it comes to MediaWiki workings so I've been told that my method was a very crude and tedious "brute force" method and that I should've asked for consensus first anyway. So, yes? No? VinLAURiA (talk) 07:29, 6 November 2013 (PST)

I'm fine with renaming. Scream Fortress is to generic anyways. Just need a Bot to do all the changes and its all good really. Ashes (talk) 19:28, 9 November 2013 (PST)

What changes? All we need to do is move the update pages, nav templates, and categories. Darkid (|) 12:23, 10 November 2013 (PST)

... I blame Ashes. VinLAURiA (talk) 18:39, 10 November 2013 (PST)

Yeah, But using a bot would be more useful as we're moving hundreds of pages, templates and categories, Including translations. So a Bot would be more reasonable for a task like this. Ashes (talk) 18:44, 10 November 2013 (PST)

Category:Scream Fortress 2013 Template:Scream Fortress 2013 Nav Scream Fortress 2013 Scream Fortress 2013/cs Scream Fortress 2013/de Scream Fortress 2013/fr Scream Fortress 2013/pt-br Scream Fortress 2013/ru Scream Fortress 2013/zh-hant. Any others? Darkid (|) 18:56, 10 November 2013 (PST)

Not that I'm aware of. As I said elsewhere, I'm fairly certain changing the categories in the navigation templates would update all the appropriate pages without the need for bots. VinLAURiA (talk) 18:06, 11 November 2013 (PST)

Is there a reason not to use the official update name instead? tf2.com/history.php lists it as 'Scream Fortress V'. — Armisael (T · C) 19:16, 10 November 2013 (PST)

The same thing could be said for last year's special, which was officially Scream Fortress IV. The point is they're more distinct this way; just numbering them generically is pretty bland. VinLAURiA (talk) 16:54, 11 November 2013 (PST)

They're more distinct, but is it actually useful? I have no idea what year the Very Scary Halloween special was without looking it up (or what it was about) - I consider them more informative. And yes, we would want to change the name of last year's halloween special as well, but as noted above, that's not that difficult. — Armisael (T · C) 22:11, 11 November 2013 (PST)

That's not necessary. In many of the cases where more than one Halloween special is mentioned - such as the nav templates - there will usually be the year in parenthesis or some other mention of where each one falls in order with the others. Not only would "Scream Fortress #" be more generic, it'd be redundant. And from memory, the Very Scary Halloween Special was 2011's battle against MONOCULUS! It's really not that hard to remember. VinLAURiA (talk) 22:14, 12 November 2013 (PST)

If I'm user, I prefer the way to easy to remember the name, like The Forth Anniversary of Scream Fortress. The specific name like Very Scary Halloween Special can make me confuse with another Halloween Update. Rikka Takanashi (talk) • (contributions) 03:17, 13 November 2013 (PST)

So... should we do a vote, then? 'Cuz I'm saying  Support VinLAURiA (talk) 07:11, 22 November 2013 (PST)

Golden Frying Pen 22 November 2013

Здравствуйте дорогие участники! Я в конце каталога нашел оружие ближнего боя "Золотая сковорода". Ребят, это новая вещичка или я туплю? В интернете про нее ничего нету! Hello dear... players? I've just found a golden frying pan in the end of catalogue Mann Co! Is it new item or i am a just slowpoke? There is nothing in Internet about that!

See Golden Frying Pan.

Zabidenu

(contribs ▪ talk) 05:40, 22 November 2013 (PST)

An official 'Update Checklist'

This wiki has gotten very complex over the years, and one of the greatest complexities, mixed with the largest scrambles, and one of the easiest entry points for new users is updates. They're frequent, but the things they modify are so stretched out these days that invariably, even the most experienced editors forget some detain in some template somewhere. I propose, to be added to the Help: namespace, an update checklist which will allow users, new and old, to ensure that no nuance of any update is missed. I have mocked one up here, and although it likely has inaccuracies, I feel that it is close enough to complete to warrant possible submission. What do you all think of the idea/my mock-up? Darkid (|) 04:21, 23 November 2013 (PST)

I'd add the following for the weapons / etc. that mess around with a classes health, speed: Template:Metrics/Speed, Template:Metrics/Health, Template:Class health table, Template:Class speed table, since those hide the 'hidden math voodoo' of the game --Org (talk) 11:25, 23 November 2013 (PST)

Done. Darkid (|) 11:30, 23 November 2013 (PST)

Well I guess I'll put this to formal vote, since there was no discussion.  Agree It's not clear, even to experienced editors (like me!) what to do every update. Certain pages which should be maintained (like {{Itemcount}} and {{Dictionary/quad}}) have fallen behind, due to obscurity. A formal list of what to do will solve both of these problems, as well as simplifying what needs to be done every update--People can just read off the list. Darkid (|) 11:06, 30 November 2013 (PST)

 Agree This would be a pretty useful thing to have too, as long as the checklist covers some more stuff, like the painted variants section of the page, and the lists of paintable items. It can be pretty hard to work out what things need to be done with updates, especially when new items are added, or there are significant changes needed to existing pages. --Omolong (talk) 11:11, 30 November 2013 (PST)

 Agree Poot. —Moussekateer·talk 11:19, 30 November 2013 (PST)

Pages for Mann vs Machine upgrades?

I was thinking that MvM upgrades deserve their own pages, especially for stuff like disposable sentries and the projectile shield, because I can't find any info about it. I'd be more than glad to make a few pages myself about what I do know.

Thanks for reading. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Oscarvdhooft (talk) • (contribs)

Upgrade Station Darkid (|) 13:10, 24 November 2013 (PST)

NOT what I meant. Actual pages for invidual upgrades, clearly describing their mechanics. Complex upgrades like projectile shield, knockback rage and disposable sentries could use their own page because there is no info on it anywhere. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Oscarvdhooft (talk) • (contribs)

Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~. I feel like, although important upgrades, they would only constitute around a paragraph of detail (Minisentries especially do not need much explanation). This information could be easily put on that page, if you would like to add it. Darkid (|) 12:31, 27 November 2013 (PST)

Signing? How does that work? And the disposable sentry gun is actually different from the regular mini sentry gun. I still believe that upgrades like the projectile shield deserve their own page because there is much more than a paragraph about it. I unfortunately can't add anything about it because I don't know anything about because- you guessed it, there's no wiki page and I don't know how I can access and understand TF2 coding, while others do and could write a page about it.

— The preceding unsigned comment was added by Oscarvdhooft (talk) • (contribs)

Giving a page for every single upgrade would be pointless. It would more less clutter. Its easier to compile it all into one page which we already have anyways. Just saying. Ashes (talk) 08:56, 28 November 2013 (PST)

Wiki editing is mostly done in WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get). If you can provide the text for the pages, someone else can deal with the formatting. By signing, I only mean ending your post with ~~~~.

Darkid (|) 10:47, 28 November 2013 (PST)

Currently no Page for Heart of Gold

This item has been around since the 11/26/13, yet no one has created a page for it. Is there not sufficient information about the item or is everyone waiting for someone else to make the page? Neither one seems likely since the TF2Wiki has a large community and many people take responsibility. Also, pages are created and allowed to stay for things we barely know about. I'd gladly make the page myself but I'm not really sure how or what to do in order to create an acceptable page, or why it's not being done in the first place. --Shnowshner (talk) 19:53, 28 November 2013 (PST)

Must have been overlooked in the recent bustle of edits still being made to the large MvM patch. I will create the base page now. —Moussekateer·talk 20:04, 28 November 2013 (PST)

Okay, thanks. --Shnowshner (talk) 20:08, 28 November 2013 (PST)