Team Fortress Wiki:Discussion

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Double Drop Week 2012?

I've missed the first two Double Drop Weeks and I want to know if there will be a third one. So if anyone could give me some info I would appreciate it a lot thank-you

Exploding Potato 10:23, 2 October 2012 (PDT)

PS: My time is 04:19am ,3 October 2012 (EST)

We do not know anything about valve planing (e.g. Halloween event date), please do not ask this type of questions because we all can't find the answer for you. Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions) 11:06, 2 October 2012 (PDT)

tf2wiki.net?

Does anybody know about why there is this official Wiki along with the (seemingly abandoned) Tf2wiki.net? It doesn't make much sense for two of them to exist... Captinchikin 18:08, 3 October 2012 (PDT)

It is the older version of this wiki. Many pages and images were migrated, but you should consider this one to be the official wiki. Darkid (|) 18:26, 3 October 2012 (PDT)

Any way to erase the domain? to avoid confusion between 2 sites for normal people. Irufort 04:57, 9 October 2012 (PDT)

Team_Fortress_Wiki:FAQ#Why two wikis? tf2wiki.net and wiki.teamfortress.com? —Moussekateer·talk 07:27, 9 October 2012 (PDT)

Should phrase's meaning be added into trivia?

Thing is, not all translators have native understanding of English nor of English phrases. Adding phrase's meaning into trivia section would help translators and people, who read Wiki in English, but don't have native understanding of it nor its phrases. Example can be found here (Lacking Moral Fiber Mask). It wouldn't require much to add phrase's meaning into trivia section, and it would make it clearer and more helpful, while it may seem very obvious to native speakers. Another example would be "K-9 Mane" (in trivia would be added "K-9 Mane is pronounced similar to Canine man" or something like that); although this example was fairly simple, it might still be good addition to make it clearer. -Asplode 13:04, 7 October 2012 (PDT)

 Support — Of course, it is not always necessary. But sometimes it is, and it really helps finding a good, adequate name in other languages. I can also mention cases like this: Tail From the Crypt. — Stormbird ^T│C 14:00, 7 October 2012 (PDT)

 Agree because it makes sense rZ 05:03, 9 October 2012 (PDT)

 Support — Thats's a good idea, not all of us have the same understanding. I think I'll agree if we have to simplify the trivia into much compact and easy read pieces.But we will just leave some as it is . Well since i am also like to tamper with trivial things , I'll second this one :) Irufort 05:07, 9 October 2012 (PDT)

 Support Sure, why not. I didn't even realize the K-9 pun until I read it just now — Wind 12:47, 13 October 2012 (PDT)

 Support Alot of trivia in tf2 does relete to puns and as such making sure it is mentioned in other languages is a good idea DLStrike 23:50, 25 October 2012 (PDT)

 Support This would make things a lot easier to read. One question: would it work if you created a page that listed all the puns? That way people could access definitions of puns without scrolling through multiple pages of text. I think that would make the trivia section be less clogged up. Lud1colo 17:32, 18 December 2012 (PST)

Splitting PDA

This not the first time I've brought this up, but I'd like to bring it up again. I'm going to list the differences between the Construction PDA and the Destruction PDA. Hopefully you'll agree with me.

Construction PDA

• Constructs buildings
• Occupies a loadout slot
  • Can be named, described, and traded

Destruction PDA

• Destructs buildings
• Doesn't occupy a loadout slot
  • Cannot be named, described, and traded

This is a short list of the differences, but I believe they are notable enough to warrant separate articles. rZ 05:41, 10 October 2012 (PDT)

 Not yet The thing is, the two PDAs are basically a pair. IT doesn't make much sense to split the weapon demonstration simply - you really need one to use the other. The two come as a set, even though only the construction PDA uses a loadout slot. I don't doubt that Valve are intending to add new PDAs at some point in the future, so maybe we should just wait until then and decide what's best at the time. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 05:58, 10 October 2012 (PDT)

 Nope Maybe if they had their own loadout slots, but as of now, they're essentially the same item just switching to change their function. Balladofwindfishes 06:03, 10 October 2012 (PDT)

 Comment Can we at least split the bucket icon into two separate ones?

It doesn't really make sense to combine the two icons into one image when it's not how they are represented in the backpack. 01:28, 11 October 2012 (PDT)

 Unsure I don't know. On one hand, they aren't seperate weapons, and aren't sperated via any loadout slots. On the other, they serve very different purposes. I don't think we need a new weapon demonstration video, but I don't know if there's enough information for both PDA's to warrant separate articles. --Enthers. (I find this work intriguing. How about yourself, sir?) 18:19, 13 October 2012 (PDT)

 Comment Just split the backpack icon to 2 items (Not split the page) because in the stcok backpack view aren't the same weapon. Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions) 11:01, 22 October 2012 (PDT)

 Not yet The two PDAs are currently the only ones available to the engineer, until valve decides to release some differnt ones, then keeping them as a pair is good enough. If the two were to be split then it would result in short articles that look unprofesional. DLStrike 23:49, 25 October 2012 (PDT)

Should we add death cries to the response pages?

Honestly, i don't see a reason not to myself. Should we add them and possibly other sounds to the wiki for completion's sake? Shadoo 09:05, 22 October 2012 (PDT)

 I disagree, and feel that all (idiotic) cries (i.e. the ones in Special:Unused files) should be removed. Darkid (|) 10:23, 22 October 2012 (PDT)

 I agree, I think those sound files must be added (or keep added) and added in an category called "Death cries" (or something else) on the response pages. — Robin0van0der0vliet (talk | contributions) - 11:36, 22 October 2012 (PDT)

 Yes. Wiki is usually used to list all particular game's game-related things. So, I agree in adding them. -Asplode 13:46, 22 October 2012 (PDT)

 Support I don't think this is strictly necessary, but I also don't see why not. I think this is notable enough to be placed in these articles.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 13:48, 22 October 2012 (PDT)

 Agree Not entirely mandatory, but would be useful if only to supply people on websites with response links like some of our other lines are used for. Balladofwindfishes 15:24, 22 October 2012 (PDT)

{{common link}}

I've been meaning to say this some months ago... but well, better late than never!

There are several links in templates with common strings in the entire Wiki: major update titles, comics, but specially nav boxes. These links can also be seen sometimes in languages, to "counter" "unstable" translations (for example, translations subject to changes in the Steam Translation Server) or for other reasons. One way or another, they all currently use the [[Name{{if lang}}|{{common string|name}}]] structure, which is too much for just a link. Instead, I propose we use a {{common link}} template, which works just like the {{item link}} one, by grabbing strings from the common string dictionary and making them into translation-switched links. This would help both when making templates or when you need to translate a piece of text from a link using the dictionary (this is what /pt-br and /de normally do in their articles).

Sure, changing all of these in the entire Wiki would be a difficult and tiring task (unless we were to use bots somehow), but the final result would certainly be great and rewarding. What do you think?  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 11:07, 22 October 2012 (PDT)

 Oppose - From the standpoint of somebody who is experienced with templates, I can safely say that there is no need for this, and that it will only increase loading times for pages and not do anything to assist the end user. rZ 15:26, 22 October 2012 (PDT)

 Maybe If it could be used substituted only, and thus as shorthand for the longer link, then it would save time but not cause additional calls. Darkid (|) 04:12, 26 October 2012 (PDT)

Template:Item Checklist

{{Item checklist}} is currently too large to be included--what should we do about this? Darkid (|) 08:04, 23 October 2012 (PDT)

Uh... Widen it? I have no idea how to work templates. The last time I edited one, I broke everything. But only in the preview :3. --Enthers. (I find this work intriguing. How about yourself, sir?) 11:11, 23 October 2012 (PDT)

There's a maximum number of characters for templates--this breaks that. Darkid (|) 11:16, 23 October 2012 (PDT)

Template:user weapon checklist and Template:user hat checklist are similar to the checklist, I think we need to force people to use these 2 templates instead of use the checklist. Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions)

 Great idea, but.. we're going to suddenly delete a template? How about we simply make the icons and text smaller, and we see how it goes? --Enthers. (I find this work intriguing. How about yourself, sir?) 14:07, 23 October 2012 (PDT)

We're talking about bytesize here, not physical size. Hinaomi's idea is a good start, but unfortunately it would still only be a temporary fix - at the current rate items are being added there'll be too many before long. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 14:39, 23 October 2012 (PDT)

Yeah, temporary, but it's better than do nothing. Or we split the weapon template to each slot, hat and misc split to each class? it's temporary fix too, but can solve longer... Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions) 16:06, 23 October 2012 (PDT)

Protecting class basic tips from tampering

I'm guessing a fair amount of new users make edits to the basic tips on the class pages that have to be undone. Maybe we should make subpages such as [[Class/tips]] that contain the basic tips and protect it with a reason like "Page has official, basic tips that should not be changed in any way". Even just including it as a separate page may turn away wikinoobs. I know List of official tips has been protected in the past for a similar reason, only really unprotected because those tips actually get updated. Toomai Glittershine 19:10, 23 October 2012 (PDT)

A simpler, and less restrictive (to actual editors--i.e. if it ever gets updated) solution would be to add __NOEDITSECTION__ to the section in question; thus it could only be edited from a general page edit. This would defer any casual editor; but can be circumvented by simply editing the entire page. Darkid (|) 19:13, 23 October 2012 (PDT)

Clarification: __NOEDITSECTION__ will remove all section edit links (i.e. [edit]) on the entire page—I'm still for this idea. Darkid (|) 20:00, 23 October 2012 (PDT)

TF2 Halloween 2012 Hidden newspaper

Most of the people know by now about the spy skull head on the TF2 homepage and seen the newspaper page with the torn corner. (if not the link is here) This might be just nonsense but i believe that the "MISSING" article mentioning about the voodoo items turning you into a evil cursed, souls. And the scout(?) cards with alchemy symbols, the top card translates into "super spped" and the bottom one into a "zero". Are connected. Next to the cards is written: own, eat for, enemies. I've been looking at the clues like Merasmus, Alchemy symbols, Voodoo-cursed items and it adds up weirdly but that is the VALVe way of doing things. If anyone has more information about this page, please do tell me. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Januzuzu (talk) • (contribs) 16:11, 24 October 2012 (GMT-2)

All info on this is currently being documented in Halloween 2012.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 11:24, 24 October 2012 (PDT)

This could be just me, but when I click on Januzuzu's link, Google Chrome shows an error page, citing that the link does not exist. I was wondering if anyone else had this problem, and I have a new link here. Lud1colo 20:07, 11 December 2012 (PST)

Yes, he created the link incorrectly. I've fixed it in the above post. Darkid (|) 20:27, 11 December 2012 (PST)

Ok, thanks, Darkid. Lud1colo 20:40, 11 December 2012 (PST)

Article for ingame notification system?

The ingame notification system has seen lots of use since its implementation several years ago. A short, non-exhaustive list of what it has been used for:

• Item drop notifications
• Trade notifications
• Golden Wrench findings and deletions
• Something Special For Someone Special uses
• Item server downtime
• The release of the Blood Brothers comic
• The spawning and acquiring of haunted halloween gifts
• The arrival of the Horseless Headless Horsemann and Monoculus, their defeats, and in Monoculus' case however much time is left before he leaves
• TF Birthday shenanigans
• Server-wide Strange weapon upgrade notifications (since removed)

And I believe there is more that just doesn't come to mind immediately. Should it receive a page documenting its usage through the last few years? I think so. FlotsamX 09:53, 25 October 2012 (PDT)

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Move Mann vs. Machine (game mode) to Mann vs. Machine?

Title is self-explanatory. I believe 99.999999999% of the time someone enters "Mann vs. Machine" in a link or in the search bar, they are refering to the game mode. Then, I think it'll be better and easier for viewers if this move is accomplished. On the article, we may put a hatnote like this:

This article is about the game mode. For other uses, please see Mann vs. Machine (disambiguation).

(The disambiguation page would be what this page currently is.)

Thoughts?  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 16:31, 26 October 2012 (PDT)

Much like Kinfe and Shotgun, go for it! Be sure to do {{Disambiguation|Mann vs. Machine|Mann vs. Machine (disambiguation)}}. Darkid (|) 16:32, 26 October 2012 (PDT)

 Agree I find this very annoying, and confusing. Mpnov 16:35, 26 October 2012 (PDT)

 Agree I agree in this. And hatnote about disambiguation page is also needed, like you said. -Asplode 05:59, 29 October 2012 (PDT)

 Done  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 10:19, 30 October 2012 (PDT)

The preceding discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Add filenames to template:Item infobox?

Most filenames of items are different from the actual names in-game. For example, J. Axer's Dapper Topper is something like c_firstplace_hat. Adding the filenames of these items would be extremely useful for modders and skinners, but would also be useful for players in Gmod who need to find certain items from filename. It would be easy to implement, as it would only require text without any major formatting.

SamuelEnthers 22:23, 26 October 2012 (PDT)

 Neutral Never thought to need this, but I see no harm. Provided that it's unobtrusive, that is. Darkid (|) 06:14, 29 October 2012 (PDT)

 Agree Inputing it would be a good idea because it would greatly help any modders, so more people would use the wiki, also being the official wiki, it should conatin any data that is related to Team Fortress. That way people would come to the official wiki for all their needs. DLStrike 02:54, 20 November 2012 (PST)

 Oppose We've had similar sorts of discussions before. This information is readily available elsewhere for people who need it and doesn't belong on articles. The average player doesn't care about file names (which are easily searchable in the schema as it provides an item name -> file name mapping) as it doesn't further their understanding of the item in question; it's the modders who care, and they have their own resources for researching TF2 modding (Gamebanana, AlliedMods). Your point about Gmod is moot as we aren't a Gmod wiki. i-ghost 11:40, 29 November 2012 (PST)

 Agree It is information on the game, which is the entire point of this wiki, and why make people go elsewhere for information? The patch notes are available elsewhere, should we get rid of those too? Kirokatashi 12:39, 2 January 2013 (PST)

 Oppose This Wiki's goal is to provide information to the average player. They'll often come here looking for information on the item's damage, strategy, details (name/desc/model), crafting recipes... but not file names. Sure, there are some people interested in this kind of information (specially modders, modellers, Garry's Modders, Source SDKers, you name it), but this information is on a technical level, not a simple gaming one. This is not of interest to the regular player. If they want such information, they should refer to other sources, such as the Valve Developer Wiki. Plus, as i-ghost said, G-Mod specific info should be in a G-Mod specific Wiki or website.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 13:06, 2 January 2013 (PST)

S51 Crate, we even going to try this?

I'm pretty new here, though I've been playing TF2 for years, I'm very familiar with MediaWiki and I write code for a living. That said, I've started the insane task of creating a template for the series 51 crate. I was able to copy/paste all the items by acquiring the item in a trade.

I'd actually be willing to work on some of the other technical issues involved (if I'm lucky I'd be able to autogenerate most of the missing articles required) but the crate template (or possibly a parent, I haven't checked it) is lacking two things:

• Support for more than 21 items. (S51 has 189, lol)
• Support for the fact that the crate drops HALLOWEEN-THEMED unusuals.

Do people think this is worth doing? Are those who are authorized so make such an impactful edit (the base crate template, possibly parent templates) willing to do so? Sarysa 09:00, 27 October 2012 (PDT)

It's just one template, but it'd increase load times for pages which reference it by a large scale. I'd propose calling this one an exception. Darkid (|) 09:28, 27 October 2012 (PDT)

I imagine the base template could also be cloned. I feared that loading time could be a problem. (though you'd think MediaWiki would have implemented caching of template pages by now...) I do have one other concern, and it's how far off my estimates might be. I've looked at peoples' Eerie Crate related posts and I'm starting to think that it's X% halloween costumes (with individual item odds being X/n_costumes), Y% "Haunted" quality hats (individual odds Y/n_hats, and 1% Halloween Unusuals. If I were to go through the trouble of making the thing I'd like it to be accurate. How did people figure out the percentages of other crates? Sarysa 16:41, 27 October 2012 (PDT)

Before we were relying on a owner of several high traffic trading servers to log uncrates and compile the data for us. Other than that, there's no other (reliable) way of knowing without Valve telling us otherselves. —Moussekateer·talk 16:44, 27 October 2012 (PDT)

Ah cool, I was just wondering if drop rates were plaintext in some file or something. This is going to be difficult to figure out if last year (which was during my hiatus so tell me if I'm wrong) had haunted items as well -- it'll throw calculations off. In any case, I've created Template:Crate series table huge and aside from a ton of individual pages item pages that need to be created, it should be right. Somebody else even added it to the main Mann Co Crate page. The "Haunted" bit is in there and I took out the "Strange" bit. Sarysa 17:40, 27 October 2012 (PDT)

What we should use (and this reminds me of said issue with Festive crates... another tale) is stats.tf. It's just like someone compiling it for us, but we don't pay them. Darkid (|) 17:52, 27 October 2012 (PDT)

Oh, oh! I just remembered. It'd be faster to figure out what this crate doesn't have (i.e. promotional hats) than to list all hats it does have. I bet it's basically all hats but Bill's, Max's, etc. Darkid (|) 17:56, 27 October 2012 (PDT)

What it does have is known from its trade window description. What's funny is there were actually five duplicated items on the list. I wonder if we'll discover that these have double the drop rate of others... Sarysa 08:16, 28 October 2012 (PDT)

Adding a second thread to S51. It's almost done! I fixed all the icons by removing "The " at the beginning. (and one special item I had to manually fix) Once we get correct drop rates then S51 will have been completed. Woohoo! Sarysa 18:15, 27 October 2012 (PDT)

I really think that it only has new community Halloween items. rZombie 08:18, 28 October 2012 (PDT)

As it turns out, the huge list was a bug. It was the halloween list plus every possible unusual. (which was why the dupes) Oddly enough, the new Pyro backpack can be unusual. (this dump adds numerous misc item unusuals) The crate 51 page should be final now, and I removed my old notes. Sarysa 14:13, 1 November 2012 (PDT)

New Response Lines

Ok, this is a two-parter:

1) I've managed to upload and update the Response pages for the classes, but I'm having trouble determining what conditions the classes will say them. I have been going by the file names, but at times they can be very vague. Is there a file that specifically states which sound files are used under what conditions?

2) I've held off on uploading the Merasmus and Bombinomicon lines mostly due to confusion on where they should go.

In an effort to future-proof the Audio nav I'm proposing this layout with "Halloween Boss responses" as a new column.

I'm suggesting a single page that will list the voice lines for the HHH, MONOCULUS, Merasmus, and the Bombinomicon. This will avoid future conflicts in the Audio Nav and keep it as concise as possible. Whaddya think?

P.S. Feel free to suggest a new image. 09:56, 28 October 2012 (PDT)

 Agree Individually, they don't have an overwhelming ammount of lines like the classes and the Administrator do, which means we can do this without having people confused if it's correctly done. Plus, it saves time and space (article- and template-wide). Also, this image is good enough IMO.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 13:23, 30 October 2012 (PDT)

 Agree Merasmus has so many voice lines that a page like this certainly needs to exist. FlotsamX 18:57, 1 November 2012 (PDT)

 Agree Grouping them onto the one page makes sense. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 19:27, 1 November 2012 (PDT)

New Environmental Kill Icons

As much as I hate to admit it, I'm currently having a lot of trouble adding the kill icons for the Underworld and Merasmus. I believe the hazard infobox the correct template to modify on account of it displaying the actual kill icon notice, but I could be mistaken.

Health

From my understanding of the hazard infobox template, it does needs to be updated to include the health of MONOCULUS and Merasmus, but I'm having difficulty getting it to show properly without breaking it.

Fixed. Add health=number to each page's infobox to use this feature.

Thank you kindly. 13:41, 30 October 2012 (PDT)

Kill Notice

Lastly, the Template:Kill_notice may have to be modified.

MERASMUS! 

File:Killicon merasmus staff.png

 Spy

MONOCULUS! 

 Heavy

MERASMUS! should be green and MONOCULUS! should be in purple. The current implementation for the HHH is correct.

 Engineer

I apologize for the long discussion topic, but I hope someone can help. 02:09, 29 October 2012 (PDT)

There's an easy hack which involves changing the friendlyfire parameter to accept "purple". What color should it be? Darkid (|) 06:24, 29 October 2012 (PDT)

Done! Darkid (|) 07:14, 29 October 2012 (PDT)

The green color is a little bit darker than Haunted color. Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions) 09:07, 29 October 2012 (PDT)

Thank you so much for your help.

Kill Icons

Regarding a page's kill icons, from my understanding, the info and hazard infoboxes auto-magically link the correct kill icon based on the page name. However it runs into problems when the kill icon doesn't match the page name or there are more than 2 separate kill icons.

This made even more puzzling when the kill icon images are not directly linked from the pages themselves. Normally, I would use the custom kill icon template, but I cannot find any evidence of its use in any weapon page's code. Naturally, I have no idea how to name the new kill icons or how to include them in the pages.

In short, the following kill icons have to be added to their respective pages as they are not currently shown there:

(Eyeaduct Underworld)

File:Killicon merasmus staff.png (Merasmus)

There are several more kill icons for Merasmus which have not been uploaded yet. I believe those include the bombs and the fire damage spell. Several kill icons are also reused such as the Cow Mangler's suicide via afterburn.

If you look at Huntsman you can see an example of a double-kill icon. That should inform you of how to display both. The issue below still holds. Darkid (|) 05:44, 29 October 2012 (PDT)

If you can upload the images, I can help you a bit more. Also, sawmill does not show saw-death on its page. Darkid (|) 07:15, 29 October 2012 (PDT)

Ok, I couldn't get around to it last night, but Dio uploaded the new killicons.

MERASMUS! 

 Demoman

MERASMUS! 

 Pyro

Spy 

 Sniper

I was wondering about the Huntsman page as it wasn't clear from the page's code how the multiple kill icons were implemented. I'm also unsure about whether the "Bomb Head" kill icon should be associated with Merasmus since it's usually a suicide or another player killing another from the explosion.

I've also seen alot of these when a player dies from Merasmus' afterburn:

 Medic

As I recall, there are several missing icons on a lot of map pages, especially the train.

 Spy

 Spy

 Spy

However, I wonder whether if just a kill notice in the page body would suffice or would a kill icon in the infbox be more appropriate? 13:41, 30 October 2012 (PDT)

The point I was making was that map pages don't list associated death icons; oddly enough. I may change up the infobox at a later date, but that'll need sandboxing. The point I was making on the Huntsman page was that you could specify | kill-icon-2 = huntsman headshot and that would work. I'm going to leave the bomb head kill-icon in there, as it is relevant. I've updated Merasmus to include the kill icons. Darkid (|) 14:12, 30 October 2012 (PDT)

Related Achievements

I was having some confusion (which IRC did not help) on the Saxxy page, and it brought up a more general question: What defines a "Related Achievement"?

For example, the achievement War Crime Spybunal (Kill a spy who just backstabbed a teammate as a soldier) was to be listed, but Blunt Trauma (Uber a heavy who kills 2 enemies with his fists) was not.

I'd pose that the achievement should only be listed if it is of the specific slot required for the achievement, and it is the weapon directly responsible (ubercharge, kill, etc) for the earning of said achievement. Thus, War Crime Spybunal would not be listed, nor would Blunt Trauma. Darkid (|) 15:36, 29 October 2012 (PDT)

Going through the weapon pages on the Wiki, I have come across the same issue. Using his examples (War Crime Spybunal and Blunt Trauma), I would assume that War Crime Spybunal covers every Soldier weapon, and should not be on that page listed as an achievement, and that Blunt Trauma should be listed, because the achievement strictly involves Heavy melee weapons, and the Saxxy is, indeed, a Heavy melee weapon, and should be listed as an achievement on all Heavy melee pages. However, this is not the case. War Crime Spybunal IS included, and Blunt Trauma is NOT. This confounds me. LuchaHoovy 15:46, 29 October 2012 (PDT)

The way I see it is, if the weapon can be used to gain the achievement, then the achievement should be listed as a related achievement. Since you need an Ubercharge to gain the Blunt Trauma, and not the Saxxy, it shouldn't be listed on the Saxxy page. But you can use the Saxxy to gain the War Crime Spybunal achievement, so it should be listed on the Saxxy page. --Liquid Fire @H|H 15:20, 31 October 2012 (PDT)

So, precisely contrary to the current setup, all soldier weapons should list WCS, and none of the spy knives should? Darkid (|) 15:24, 31 October 2012 (PDT)

Yeah, that's how I see it at least. But it would be nice if an admin/mod could make some rules for what a makes an achievement related --Liquid Fire @H|H 15:29, 31 October 2012 (PDT)

HLVM Problem: the Essential Accessories appearing on all classes

For some reason every time I load any class model The Scout's misc item, the essential accessories appears. Even when another weapon is loaded. I've tried unloaded the weapon and changing the submodels on the scout but nothing. Help? Is there a way to make all the models go back into their default settings? Wariopunk 16:15, 30 October 2012 (PDT)

Sorry, but this page is intended for discussions regarding the TF2 Official Wiki. If you wish to talk about HLMV, please see the Source SDK General Discussion forum in SPUF.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 16:20, 30 October 2012 (PDT)

Nearly all hats being able to be obtained through Crate #51 Haunted?

On most hat pages it says it's possible to get all items from Crate #51 Haunted. The only items that can be Haunted are Halloween items. Is there is a reason that this has happened? — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Renegabe (talk) • (contribs)

There was a glitch where the online Steam inventory listed every possible unusual item under the eerie crate. They can't be obtained as haunted. rZombie 08:37, 2 November 2012 (PDT)

Tradeable vs Tradable

I believe "Tradable" (without the first e) is the correct spelling, but I'm not sure. Can I get everyone's input? Darkid (|) 10:28, 8 November 2012 (PST)

"Tradable" is the correct spelling. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 11:45, 8 November 2012 (PST)

Need help on template

Sorry but I did the templates at Upgrade Station to can switch language but currently NOBODY help me to copy+paste and fix the missing translate, can somebody help? Those templates are :

• Template:Upgrade station primary
• Template:Upgrade station secondary
• Template:Upgrade station melee
• Template:Upgrade station sapper
• Template:Upgrade station building
• Template:Upgrade station canteen

And currently have only ru, zh-hant, cs, pl, and ko. If anybody can help, please help me cause I don't have many time like before and this problem is huger than I think. Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions) 02:07, 11 November 2012 (PST)

Should we split (or otherwise clean up) the major update nav?

Template: Major updates nav seems a little silly to me (the 2011 column in particular). It places the Japan Charity bundle on the same level as the Uber Update, which to me just seems nonsensical. I think it ought to be tightened up somewhat.
My preferred plan would actually be to split in into two navs - the major update nav would only include updates listed at http://www.tf2.com/history.php, and a new nav would get all of the other smaller updates. Thoughts? — Armisael (T · C) 15:17, 11 November 2012 (PST)

 Disagree Well, this nav shows all major updates listed here, whether they are content updates or packs. I don't see why we should split it up, as it causes no harm the way it is right now.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 09:46, 13 November 2012 (PST)

Would you be amenable to stripping out some of the minor content updates? There's no reason I can think of to include the Japan Charity bundle in that nav - it was 3 hats and 2 noisemakers. — Armisael (T · C) 07:20, 14 November 2012 (PST)

We could list content packs separately from major updates, would that do the trick? Darkid (|) 05:24, 12 December 2012 (PST)

Mysterious Whispers at ghost fort.

Anyone here who has played Ghost Fort might remember hearing some eerie noises. Has anyone bothered to investigate those? Maybe they are secret messages like the Red-Tape-Recoder's "Lets make some noise".

I uploaded all 5 of them. [First.] [Second.] [Third.] [Fourth.] [Fifth.]

--Mike T 05:38, 17 November 2012 (PST)

Pages on newer maps lacking proper screenshots/image gallery

New here, but as a long time user of this Wiki I feel like the articles on the newer maps (like Doomsday, Kong King, all the MvM ones and Ghost Fort) have very scarce image galleries, plus the screenshots are sometimes rather low-resolution and/or still have the HUD displayed on them. Coaltown_event also has only a few pics at a low resoluton.

Unfortunately, I have a 5:4 monitor and only play in a 1280x1024 resolution, so I'm not really able to provide high-res images in a proper aspect ratio. If someone has the time and the hardware to take such screens and add them to the pages, it'd be really appreciated.

The articles on older maps have much richer galleries that clearly display certain parts of the map from good angles, whereas the newer ones show a real dip in quality/effort. Stric Matic 14:19, 18 November 2012 (PST)

Full Backpack

One day I was playing and i got a new item but my backpack was full so i got rid of an item, It turns out iI got rid of my achivement gunslinger. I dont know what to do can somebody help me out? — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Smwplayer1 (talk) • (contribs)

A couple of templates of questionable use.

Namely, {{Forums}} and {{CentralDiscussion}}. The former is just a shortcut (with ~5 uses), and the latter is a manually-updated list of moves and merges... of which tend to be resolved by the time the template is updated. Proposition: Delete both. Darkid (|) 15:36, 20 November 2012 (PST)

 Oppose Similarly to {{unsigned}}, {{forums}} should be substituted anyway. It's really just there for convenience, there's no way of telling how many people use it. The central discussion board is a nice idea, though sadly underused - if it were updated more often with current events I think it would be better. That signature rules template has been there forever. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 13:37, 25 November 2012 (PST)

Control Point or Control point?

For example, Control Point, but Control point (objective). I'd say go with both capitalized. Darkid (|) 15:23, 21 November 2012 (PST)

Object should not be capitalized. All the other names refering to the game mode or a map containing the mode name should be capitalied. TNS 16:06, 21 November 2012 (PST)

So for these two, you think that the disambiguation page (the first) should be unchanged, while the second should. But if I'm referring to the mapmaking element, then it should be lowercase. Darkid (|) 18:55, 21 November 2012 (PST)

I think both should remain unchanged. Knowing that "control point" is a banal word like "plant pot". While "Control Point" as a noun designating a game mode is capitalized, like a car brand. --Gundi 12:08, 28 November 2012 (PST)

Reskins + Nav Bar

The war is over, reason has won. We now start a new discussion about: Reskins. My point is...and like god wrote on 2 stone tablets i stand on this point...a reskin is a weapon which deals the same damage, and has the same attributes, and no additional attributes, like another item. Visual effects with no real use (on dead golden statues like g. wrench) also count as reskins if they have the exact same attributes and damage dealt. And now why i told you this. The list of reused weapon ideas (stats+damage) leads to a longer and longer list on each weapon slot (primary, secondary, melee etc.). To clean that up i thought about it and made an example for the "Heavy Nav" template. I also have in mind the Demoman Nav which is very terrible to read because of the many bottle and eyelander reskins.
Reskins are listed like this: Original1 (reskin1, reskin2)  ·  Original2 etc.
And the newest weapon for each slot is made BOLD.
I think this way it is readable. My modification: User:TheDoctor/test >

δ³Σx² > Add + or - skills for me 10:58, 29 November 2012 (PST)

As a quick comment, it should be the newest weapons (i.e if there are multiple in one patch). Darkid (|) 11:24, 29 November 2012 (PST)

I like the idea of reskins in brackets but why do you want the newest weapon(s) to be bold? They are not more important than other weapons, so I don't get your idea here. AgentBull^(T|C) 13:10, 29 November 2012 (PST)

Good idea, but in this case, the list after Fists seems to be too long to be listed like that, it doesn't look good. I guess that tooltip won't work well with link either. Hm. Good idea, but I'm not sure how to make that look better, because in my opinion it needs some changes. -Asplode 13:32, 29 November 2012 (PST)

I thought Bold will show you the newest weapons which catches your eye faster. But this isnt a must be(AgentBull). Yeah long reskins or at the end of a list make a new line. Maybe the idea could be: Bold for original weapons. (Italic) for reskins? It is a discussion so let us discuss about new ideas. δ³Σx² > Add + or - skills for me 14:10, 29 November 2012 (PST)

_____________________
v2: Reskins are now (Italic). Removed newest weapon is Bold. Preview:

δ³Σx² > Add + or - skills for me 11:14, 4 December 2012 (PST)

 Support I approve. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 14:20, 4 December 2012 (PST)

 Support Yes! Would totally help new users with navigating.(and current users) Ashes 14:24, 4 December 2012 (PST)

 Support I agree. RED Mart Security 14:29, 4 December 2012 (PST)

 Support Yes. This is perfect. Bruss48 _{(T | C)} 14:47, 4 December 2012 (PST)

 Sure, Why not? Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions) 14:54, 4 December 2012 (PST)

I'm concerned about the issue of "reskin", which I know caused hell and high water a few years (months, whatever) ago. I like the definition here, but just in case people missed this detail, it's defined to be *identical attributes*. Neither the Solemn Vow nor the Original are reskins. The Golden Wrench is a reskin. Darkid (|) 15:53, 4 December 2012 (PST)

 Meh I like the reskins in parenthesis, but the italics and bold parts I don't see the need for. It just adds clutter. --Piemanmoo 16:02, 4 December 2012 (PST)

 Ain't a option Reskins should stay as they are. Even if the idea seems as a solution, it's still screwing up with the template navigation since they won't follow up patches applied over time. TNS 01:00, 5 December 2012 (PST)

 One thing It seems that in Nav-template there is something else also typed with italic (such as Meet the Heavy, and some others), which may add confusion for readers (as Piemanmoo said). Maybe without any bolds and italics, I don't know, I ain't good at aesthetic things. But just wanted to point out that possible confusion with things already written with italic. -Asplode 01:57, 5 December 2012 (PST)

Yeah Asplode the italic may confuse people, but another person before said that these ( ) < werent enough to show these are the reskins. I still find it more usefull for the people to understand which variety of weapons they have, instead of a list which doesnt inform of the possibilities they could choose from. Just my point, and why i made that up. Different colors or Weapons are bold when no reskin would be another idea. δ³Σx² > Add + or - skills for me 20:27, 6 December 2012 (PST)

I'll separate my opinions in three parts:

 Support I like the reskins in parenthesis, it helps visualize which weapons are actually gameplay-changing and which ones are not;

 Disagree There shouldn't be any bolded item names because 1) "new" is subjective 2) it doesn't fit with the other items; and

 Neutral Italic is not really necessary here if we use parenthesis. It may be somewhat distracting, too, but it blends in better than bold does.

 –  Epic Eric (T | C) 05:33, 12 December 2012 (PST)

 Neutral Vote one for brackets "only", if the change is sure to be applied in future. Don't like the presence of italic or bold inside a template. 05:41, 12 December 2012 (PST)

Instead of putting the reskins inside of brackets, would it work if you created a disambiguation page for the reskins and put that link inside of the brackets? Example: Melee | Fists (reskins) Lud1colo 16:49, 12 December 2012 (PST)
_____________________
v0: Reset to Origin point. Removed italic, bold variants *beep boop*. Preview:

δ³Σx² > Add + or - skills for me 09:50, 14 December 2012 (PST)

 Support Looks good for me, italic and bold were not necessary but confusing. This version is perfect :)

— The preceding unsigned comment was added by AgentBull (talk) • (contribs) 16:08, 14 December 2012 (UTC-2)

 Support This one achieves the main goal of this change. Plus, the bold/italic parts in the previous versions weren't good on the eye.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 10:26, 14 December 2012 (PST)

 Support This one is good. 19:19, 15 December 2012 (PST)

 Disagree Seems unnecessary to me. Parenthesises are enough. Oil rope bombs 11:55, 16 December 2012 (PST)

 Still Yes Because of this talk, I think add it is better. Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions) 15:57, 16 December 2012 (PST)

 Support Looks neat. One question: is it possible to make the parentheses more noticeable? This might just be me, but I find it a little confusing when I can't locate the parentheses. Lud1colo 17:26, 18 December 2012 (PST)

EDIT: Never mind. I can see the parentheses now. Lud1colo 17:21, 19 December 2012 (PST)

Seperated Bundles Articles?

Bundles ; Reason behind it: Descriptions of Bundles with a description are completely missing. AND we list each halloween spell seperately and they are almost all the same, so why not make for each bundle a seperate article? But here comes the tricky party: How should we list the information. And i have an example how it is done on tf2stats: tf2stats < there you see it how i think it should be listed. But i have absolutely no idea how we can make that happen in the wiki. So maybe we can discuss it here before acting seperatly with different ideas and intentions. And maybe someone makes a template for it, or finds another solution for it. Or all of this talk is obsolete/not necessary because i overlooked something. Thank you for your attention. δ³Σx² > Add + or - skills for me 11:13, 14 December 2012 (PST)

Sniper's scope bugs

At this time all Sniper's rifles has two scoping bugs:

• Attempting to scope while returning to the client view after taunting will cause the Sniper to scope, but there will appear to be no laser sight. other players will still be able to see the laser dot; this only affects the client.
• If Sniper was killed when scoping, after respawn rifle can start short-time zooming, like player just hit scope key.

At the end of june 2012 User:Hinaomi cleaned up first bug from all pages without any explanation. So, I've got two questions:

• Is this bugs too unimportant to talk or what?
• What is «important/unimportant bug or glitch»? Is there any special rules about it?

Irvitzer 00:34, 19 December 2012 (PST) — and sorry for my bad english

I removed because all Sniper Rifle have the same bug. Example like all Revolver for Spy do not eject the empty case. It's same reason. Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions) 04:51, 19 December 2012 (PST)

It doesn't make sence. It's appears to all Sniper's rifles because it's zoom screen bugs, not weapon itself, and all Sniper's rifles has zoom. We don't have page about zooming, where we can put all this bugs, but I don't think so we need clear this bugs from everywhere until it will be fixed.

And it's don't same with Spy's revolvers glitch: reloading animation just don't have case ejecting part, but missing laser dot or spontaneous zooming looks more like bug. Irvitzer 12:05, 19 December 2012 (PST) — and sorry for my bad english

Zoom screen bug? Not weapon itself? And these bug happen since game released, we don't know it's bug or not too. Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions) 12:48, 19 December 2012 (PST)

It's possibly zoom screen bug, because it's appears to all weapons which can zooming (all Sniper's rifles in fact) and only if player uses zoom. Irvitzer 13:08, 19 December 2012 (PST)

Dead merch links

Multiple articles feature links to related merchandise that is no longer available in the Valve Store. I went through the Mann Co. article and took care of it accordingly, moving the retired merch to its own section, but I honestly don't like how it looks. It looks better than some products on the list appearing as just black text, but still... What do you guys think should be done? I'm feeling like the best course of action is to just take dead products off of their respective articles, but I feel like it should be documented somewhere. Perhaps move retired merch to a section specified for it on the Merchandise article (which desperately needs cleaning), and just omit them from other articles? --SilverHammer 16:16, 19 December 2012 (PST)

New to the Wiki, but I want to help

Hello. As I said in the headline, I'm pretty new here. I don't know much about the demonstrations (Despite how many I have watched), but I was thinking that maybe I could make a demonstration myself. There are some problems I've encountered, though.

1: I have no method of recording the game. And besides Windows Live Movie Maker, I don't have any methods of editing. I would use Fraps, but I don't have money to spare.

2: I' not sure if I should bother with the demonstration.

See, the demonstration I'm thinking about is the Festive Ubersaw. I've seen the demonstration and I know what I should do, plus I was thinking about adding some things:

1: I would have a heavy and medic pair. The enemy medic would deploy his Uber, and then I would taunt-kill the heavy, to show he could be stunned while invulnerable.

2: I would be any class with a enemy Festive-Ubersaw medic, with a friendly spy in the backstab position behind the medic. The medic would taunt-kill me, but right after he would put in his saw (I should be stunned at this point), the medic would be killed, and I would be safe.

But the reason I'm asking you guys is this: Should I really make a Festive demonstration? Should I just re-do the Ubersaw demonstration with the things I was thinking about adding? Or should I not do anything, since "The Ubersaw demonstration is fine how it is, and we don't need any demonstrations of Festive weapons"? Lilchris9 19:24, 26 December 2012 (PST)Lilchris9

You should probably ask here instead. i-ghost 09:16, 27 December 2012 (PST)

Weapon attributes history.

For consistency,There should be a section in every weapon article where we'll cover the history of the weapon's attributes, where every change( and the date the change occured ) will be documented. The section is a necessity if we want to write up as much useful information as possible. Also, such information will be really interesting for the readers. --Hawk18727 02:22, 27 December 2012 (PST)

I'm not sure how creating a new section supports your argument of consistency if said section has yet to exist on other pages, but I'll humour you. What you describe is not unlike the "Update history" section present on all item pages, which tracks the changes to an items attributes. i-ghost 09:16, 27 December 2012 (PST)

In some cases, the mentioned section doesn't have the required information, because it covers... well, updates. There's no word about the PREVIOUS attributes of the weapon. And because there's no diff, the changes aren't clear. That's why i think that the "Update history" section and the "Weapon attributes" one may co-exist.

PS: The word "Consistency" is used here as in "Matching the idea of the wiki". --Hawk18727 10:09, 27 December 2012 (PST)

{{dec}} and {{thou}}

There are several pieces of information in the Wiki that contain numbers and are used on all languages. However, in some cases, these numbers have "decimal" algarisms, or even "thousand" algarisms. There's no problem in using . for decimals and , for thousands in English, but for other languages, it's troublesome. European countries usually switch those two, Arabian countries have unique symbols... the list is long. So I've gone ahead and created {{dec}} and {{thou}} that will (try to) solve this issue.

Where would these templates be used? Well... For {{dec}}, mostly {{Weapon list}} and {{Dictionary/price}}. This last one is the most important one, as it is used across the entire Wiki, and it could easily be added by changing WindBOT's configs. As for {{thou}}, I don't know if there's any current use for it right now, as all thousands in the Wiki currently have no separators; maybe let it be until a use appears, or add these separators from now on?

Anyway, put your opinions/comments/suggestions/stuph.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 14:31, 2 January 2013 (PST)

 Support Why not, makes the place look even prettier. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 16:37, 2 January 2013 (PST)

 With reservations For a template that's going to be used on a lot of pages, and possibly going to be protected, I'd be happier to see: The use of {{documentation}}, and not the use of , but instead the contents of lang. I'm thinking {{#switch:{{SUBPAGENAME}} |en |#default = . |es = , etc etc. Darkid (|) 16:45, 2 January 2013 (PST)

+ support from Warlike, LiquidFire and SevenFiveSevenM from IRC (Ctrl+F [17:05:02])

 Done  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 15:25, 6 January 2013 (PST)

Sir EpicEric, can you tell me where this change happened? It's something that probably should be in use in Template:Decimal Align instead of the current hard coded hack from way back when, which is what Darkid described? --Org 09:02, 10 January 2013 (PST)

Nevermind, found it. (I can't read apparently)--Org 09:06, 10 January 2013 (PST)

Dueler time zone

I am from Romania and i want to know at what hour i get the Dueler hat, if the previous 24h i won the most duels. I'm not sure but i think that the hat is awarded at 00:00 in Australia. Please correct me if i'm wrong.--Mouglas36 04:02, 3 January 2013 (PST)

By most duels, do you mean you were highest ranked on your duel scoreboard (such as when you load a map)? Darkid (|) 08:50, 3 January 2013 (PST)

About the Hats page and the Post-expand include size...

Currently, the hats page has a picture and name and link for every single hat in the game. Unfortunately, each template for each class is approximately 200 kilobytes, and the ten of these (9 classes + all-class) comes dangerously close to the 2 Megabyte limit for the amount of text that can be transcluded by templates. So close, in fact, that the update history and other small templates on the page push it over. This issue cannot be fixed by removing those small templates, as there will be more and more and more hats. Of course. Since the issue is these 10 templates being on the same page, the only option I see is to have them broken up and put on separate pages. These pages would be linked to by the hats page, much like item quality does now. The other option is to get valve to increase this limit, but that is (unless they up it to 10 MB) only a temporary solution. Thoughts? Darkid (|) 16:30, 4 January 2013 (PST)

 Support It took too long to access the Hats page, even editing, I think move the List of all hats to another page is the best (Maybe do that on the Misc page too?) Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions) 17:17, 4 January 2013 (PST)

In regards to the misc page, we could put scout hats & misc on the same page... save some space. No increase in the template include size, as they're one template anyways. Darkid (|) 18:02, 4 January 2013 (PST)

 Support I don't think there are better options at this point without help from Valve which is not likely to happen — Wind 17:34, 4 January 2013 (PST)

 Support Seems like the best option ... but the Hat of the Week is staying put. I have spoken :P » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 17:50, 4 January 2013 (PST)

Hat of the week is a reasonably small template... smaller than update history iirc. Darkid (|) 18:02, 4 January 2013 (PST)

Festives Debate 2013

(protip: read this previous discussion)

Another Christmas, another batch of festive weapons, and this time they aren't all stock weapons. I now feel that the difference between a weapon and a festive weapon is much more significant and easier to show simply because they're not all stocks. Seeing as it has been many months since it was last talked about, I think we should discuss it again.

To start it off I think we should Separate articles of festive weapons and normal ones. Now, certain festives have different capabilities, and the distinction becomes clearer and more important. rZ 14:49, 6 January 2013 (PST)

I'm still all for treating "Festive" as an additional item quality - albeit one which makes the item visibly different (like Community, which adds the sparkle effect). Festive just adds lightbulbs, bows or wrapping paper. Whether the weapon is Strange or not is irrelevant. So we simply stick "This weapon exists in Festive quality" and add a picture / 3D model to the infobox, as usual.

However, we should consider that whatever the outcome of this discussion, the same rules that apply to Festive weapons should probably also apply to Botkiller weapons. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 15:24, 6 January 2013 (PST)

Third time for this. Ooookay... I still support a merge--for all the previous reasons. Unfortunately, as the 3d Models project is dying (not dead) in the water, (and the fact that it would force the same to be done of botkillers) it would put more stress onto a broken bridge than I'd like to. However, I don't see a feasible alternative. Darkid (|) 15:28, 6 January 2013 (PST)

I don't think there's much reason to duplicate an entire article (several times, if we are also doing Botkiller weapons) just for items with a different skin. Sure, there are some variations, but we can just add some infobox info (dunno, maybe "Strange (Festive)" where it suits best?). No need to give translators/editors/everyone even more work by separating everything when it's practically the same weapon.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 15:36, 6 January 2013 (PST)

 Disagree Well, looking to create an artcle for festive weapons by themselves is a good idea, and you make a good point that the sandvich can not be strange, where as the festive one can be, but on a seperate article there would be little else one may write about it. In the same article, maybe a section that is labled more clearer as "Festive" or "Festive Version", that way there is a distinction. In the section it can include information such as that the festive version can come in strange, and what crate to get it from, how it works the same way as the normal version of it etc. DLStrike 13:38, 16 January 2013 (PST)

 Nope.avi I don't feel that this is necessary since Festive weapons are for all intents and purposes just simple reskins of existing weapons that lack enough differences that set them apart to merit their own individual pages. Just add their 3D Models to their respective item pages alongside the default models at the top of the page and call it a day. Blk_Mage_Ctype 12:05, 18 January 2013 (PST)

Suggestion: Add 3D Models of 2012 Festive weapons to their respective articles.

We have rotatable 3D Models for weapons on their individual articles, but not for the Festive variants. Seeing as we have the "Nommed" versions of the Sandvich's 3D Model, it seems incredibly odd that we don't have the 3D Models of Festive weapons. I mean, if the simple model of the Sandvich with a bite taken out of it merits a place beside the default model, then shouldn't the far more significant Festive model be included as well? I propose that we add the 3D Models of Festive weapons to their respective articles, featured right alongside the "Default" model (and "Nommed" in the Sandvich's case) immediately. Blk_Mage_Ctype 17:16, 17 January 2013 (PST)

That's already in place, for the 2011 Festives at least. See Scattergun. I'm sure once the 3D model project picks back up the 2012 Festive 3D models will be made. COBALT 17:18, 17 January 2013 (PST)

Excellent! I didn't see that before, otherwise I wouldn't have posted this. However, hopefully this will encourage more people to contribute and help with the 3D Model Project, as so far progress has been quite slow. Blk_Mage_Ctype 09:18, 18 January 2013 (PST)