Team Fortress Wiki talk:Community Strategy

Basic strategy

I feel some of the basic strategy pages are in need of review too. Do we add them to this project or wait or a different one? Guybrush20X6 (talk) 16:56, 7 November 2015 (PST)

Add. — The preceding assigned comment was added by Tark {Finish Him! ▪ Contribs} 17:02, 7 November 2015 (PST)

We can add it for the time being. The project right know is still a minor work in progress but we're looking into improving all strategy, including smaller stuff like achievements. --Dr. Scaphandre (talk) 17:03, 7 November 2015 (PST)

Ok. I've been updating the Basic Medieval Mode Page. But it still lacks the B.A.S.E. jumper and the Tide Turner. I'll add them later Guybrush20X6 (talk) 17:16, 7 November 2015 (PST)

Don't forget the community version of the article. --Dr. Scaphandre (talk) 19:38, 7 November 2015 (PST)

We also need to add these two pages to the list. Guybrush20X6 (talk) 12:21, 8 November 2015 (PST)

I'm already working on a task list for gamemodes, then I'll be making one for each MvM tour. --Dr. Scaphandre (talk) 12:28, 8 November 2015 (PST)

Class Strategy Massive Edits

So recently, a lot of edits have been occurring on the class strategy pages that need to be addressed. With the Tough Break update, they all need review and major work done to them. The questions is what and how? -- Dr. Scaphandre 12:59, 30 January 2016 (PST)

Most of all, the recent edits from Hayzze does not reach the wiki quality with follow reasons:

• It's good to split into small section to clarify each items, but the titles do not match with Style guide. Example like "Original (Reskin with subtle mechanic difference)" or "Situations where having only 3 rockets will not kill you (No sarcasm)".
• Efficiency Techniques? Gimmick? Usage in actual gameplay? Why we have to put these in? Everyone have their own playstyle, community strategy should be just the guideline that tell the good points and bad points of weapons, not the suggestion of the way to play.
• Medic Buddies has it own section, don't need to put more.
• Most of his writing are suggestion and/or personal thought, which is not pass the quality.

These are things I saw on that massive edits, low quality, a lot of useless contents. Rikka Takanashi (talk) • (contributions) 16:10, 30 January 2016 (PST)

The community strategy page is for the community to edit. It is not a proper wiki page or it would have been more organized. Some people wrote the exact same thing twice. Hayzze (talk) 16:49, 30 January 2016 (PST)

Anyway, the things you added are too low quality, have a lot of useless sections and use a lot of your own personal thought. Still, did the massive edit without asking anyone is good for you? I don't think so. Rikka Takanashi (talk) • (contributions) 17:06, 30 January 2016 (PST)

I thought opinion is supposed to be put in there... And you don't care if it is useless, as this is not a real page. I said things were gimmicks that were things unlikely to be used in actual gameplay, etc. spy-checking with a black box. Efficiency Techniques were techniques used with the weapon itself to get the most 'efficiency' such as always reloading. I also included some parts in efficiency related to compensation. The reason I made the Original have extra description was because it needs its own section. The medic buddies and crits section I made was because all those info comments were related in that they talked about crits, medic buddies, or both, so I grouped them. I also think Original should not be considered a reskin from now on. Hayzze (talk) 17:15, 30 January 2016 (PST)

After I sliced every parts you did in that Soldier strategy, here are my point out:

• Overlink a lot in many parts, which really hard to tell how many of it in those edits.
• Titles are not formal. Why you have to add the "Reskin with subtle mechanic difference" part?
• Efficiency Techniques, Specific/Situational Attacks, Gimmicks, Usage in actual gameplay are suggestions, rather than the guide.
• We have Weapon Combination section for reason, we don't need to add it in the weapon section.
• Many of your writing is from your thought, not the weapons' attributes themselves.

Like I told on your talk page, do the sandbox, edit as much as you want then ask other opinion and advices. Rikka Takanashi (talk) • (contributions) 17:31, 30 January 2016 (PST)

'every part' or 'all the parts' is the correct way. Don't take this as being insulting, I am trying to help. I seriously cannot understand some things you say at all.

1) No idea what this sentence is supposed to mean, sorry.

2) Yeah... My bad. Can we just add a new section for Original and stop calling it a reskin? It has its own unique attribute so I think even if it is supposed to be a reskin, it should have its own mini-section.

3) Yeah, I was trying to make it legible. Maybe we should delete the redundant things in there...

4) We do actually, I was mainly rearranging the stuff. I did notice at least 2-7 things in each weapon section were also giving load-out advice (such as 'use a base jumper with airstrike'), and this was probably written by random people, which is why it was all over the place and some stuff was repeated. We should probably move this then. Although can I keep the part in Rocket Jumper where I said to not equip gunboats...?

5) I don't really know what you mean by a sandbox. I have tried editing a copy of the page in a word document so I can do it all in one edit. However I told you that before the browser/page crashed because it took too long to load all the information. Note that I took several hours to edit it. Anyway, I think that it is still a good idea to organize those pages. (This is getting sort of annoying now. I type 'organise' and it gets a red squiggly line and I have to change it to organize. Then I write 'offence' and then because of consistency with other comments, I have to turn it to offense. Can America please make up its mind? Just make them all 'c', 'z', or 's'. Look, I didn't invent English but this is getting confusing now...) Hayzze (talk) 23:54, 30 January 2016 (PST)

1),2),5) are the proof that you didn't read the Style guide at all. I told like 4 times that you have to read it, but seem like you use your own judgement to do anything you want. Like Dr. Scaphandre said, you're the car that going too fast and nearly hit the block ahead. I'm trying to slow you down but still, you think you're supercar that cannot go slower. If you don't even listen to anyone in this community, nobody will help you. Also, I forgot to mention this, Do not add your comment in other people's comment. It makes the page looks harder to understand. And group your every thought you want to say before write them down in comment, it likes cluster that you did on many pages and nobody don't want to read torn newspaper like your comment that torn both your and my comment to nearly unreadable. Rikka Takanashi (talk) • (contributions) 02:25, 31 January 2016 (PST)

Okay, I heard enough. Hayzze, I know you have good intentions, but as Rikka said the way you wrote those changes do not follow the style guide, and I should know since I wrote the style guide page for Strategy Pages. The class pages are under review, not under update, for we need to update them to the changes Tough Break caused, but what you're trying to do is change the pages too much without coming to me or anyone else in the project. I'd be cool with it if it wasn't for the fact that the wiki update is causing so many problems for me, making me unable to check every strategy edit made.

So Hayzze, I'm asking you personally to not edit any of the class strategy pages without consulting me or one of the project members first. That way we can keep this problem from happening again. -- Dr. Scaphandre 13:20, 1 February 2016 (PST)

Just dropping by.

It's been years since someone has proposed an overhaul of the strategy pages and I heartily approve of the format-in-progress. I've overhauled and maintained the Basic strategy, Anti-class strategy, and Obtaining achievements pages for a while, so you can have faith that eventually, those pages will reach the wiki standards after updates. Just wanted to give my opinions/observations.

• Basic strategy and Obtaining achievements are some of the more accessed pages, which is why they were the target of my overhaul years ago. I'm totally biased and think they're pretty good to go.
  • If you need any of the smaller pages you've marked for review looked over for grammar, order, and formatting (as opposed to content), feel free to ask me? I'm looking at individual and team strategy pages, mostly.
• As cynical as this sounds, plenty of additions to Community strategy are made by users who don't actually read the Community page. It's a negative feedback loop: there's so much not-well-written content to sift through, which leads to the newbie editor just wanting to add their niche entry and get out. This leads to a jumbled mess which several users have tried to overhaul but proved to be too large a task. A set format would be amazing.
  • Something like...
    • General (Basic stats, offense, defense, support, class-specific roles)
    • Weapon-specific (Taunts not separated and something done about those tables)
    • Class-specific mechanics (Such as Rocket jumping, Demoknight, Cloak, Healing)
    • Weapon combinations
    • Cooperation with other classes
    • (Class combat information moved to Anti-class strategy or Match-up pages)
  • That leads to another problem: with too much policing, the pages lose the community touch.
• Community map strategy pages, on the other hand, are a specific enough topic that plenty can be said without overwhelming the user. The pages for the more popular maps have a good feel to 'em.

-- InShane (talk) 23:19, 31 January 2016 (PST)

Thanks for dropping by. Why don't you stick around why don't you?

Since you finished review of the Basic and Achievement pages, could you give the green light on the tables that they're up to date? I'm on mobile and can't do it right now.

This discussion about a new set format has been brought up by a couple users. Problem is, we don't have a new format to use. If you have some more format ideas, feel free to share it. You can also help with the style guide page to help users know what to do.

As for map pages, my problem is there's not enough people working on them. I'm pretty much the only one updating them, and I've hardly done any updating due to wiki lag from the update. What I'd love is to get more people on board to help out. -- Dr. Scaphandre 13:31, 1 February 2016 (PST)

Here to help out.

It took a while to find this page, but like most of you here I've seen so much outdated info on the Strategy pages that I had to come in and do something. I have been frequently (and still am) updating another wiki, SmashWiki, so I think I'd be down for the job since I have a lot of time right now. So far I've added info and trimmed outdated info from the Basic Strategy pages of the Scout, Soldier, and Pyro, but I'm going to go through everything, even the Community Strategy pages, and update whatever is currently wrong. So if you guys could help out by editing any info I might miss out or mistakes I made, it would be a great help. Again, I'm glad to be of help here, cause these pages aren't going to update themselves. Archrelico (talk) 05:28, 13 March 2016 (PDT)

Great to see someone fixing up those9 messes, I'll gladly help out when I get the time to!

Faghetti V.2 (talk) 05:31, 13 March 2016 (PDT)

Alrighty, noted! Wanted to say your additions are fantastic. There are definitely plenty of use cases you've added that do fall under Basic Strategy (as opposed to niche entries that belong in Community Strategy). I will make sure to maintain all of your information while shuffling words around to make paragraphs flow better, as I have for the past few years. -- InShane (talk) 22:55, 15 March 2016 (PDT)

Oh, with that in mind, I'd like your opinion on how I integrated your additions into the Basic Strategy pages. I try my best to keep entries at their original length even as more information is added (a little below 150 words each). I ask because that means my edits are almost always big red numbers, which means it seems like tons of what I do are removals. If it looks too removal-ly, please bring it up! -- InShane (talk) 00:31, 16 March 2016 (PDT)

I think that was my main issue at the beginning, as I'm not exactly sure when it is a good idea to add weapon synergies on the Basic Strategy pages. I see that you managed to change some of my lengthy sentences into shorter ones which is always really good, and thanks for that since I usually type in run-on sentences. However, some of the weapon synergies you removed are those that I've seen people use to great effect. Should I just keep very obvious weapon synergies such as the Air Strike and Base Jumper while transferring more uncommon ones like the Beggar's and Gunboats to the Community page? Archrelico (talk) 08:54, 16 March 2016 (PDT)

Sounds like my mistake if I took synergies like those out completely. I should have moved the Gunboats info to the Gunboats entry and mentioned which launchers work best with the Jumper. Will do so soon. As you said, it's good to mention common combos in Basic. Any useful two-weapon combos are great in basic, while community has three-weapon loadouts. Thanks again for your additions. -- InShane (talk) 17:04, 16 March 2016 (PDT)

Alright, that's good. I'll continue to add info and polish up the strategy pages. If I happen to write way too long again, your rewordings will help really well. Thanks! Archrelico (talk) 00:28, 17 March 2016 (PDT)

Okay, we pretty much got the Basic Strategy pages done. Thanks for shortening unnecessary and wordy additions on my part, InShane. I'd be nice if we could get feedback on our updates, but I guess it's now for the nitty-gritty: Community Strategy pages. I've browsed through them a while ago and there are so many outdated weapon synergies and stats that it's really bothering me. I'll be starting from Scout as usual. Archrelico (talk) 08:12, 28 March 2016 (PDT)

I think you're an expert on the subject matter enough to say, "Hah, my edits are the best!" Serious, you ID-ed tons of outdated info that I never noticed. I have mixed feelings about trying on community strategy myself as seen above, because revisions is all I do. If adding your strategies becomes daunting, you could try focusing on outdated info first? Your call; I'd follow your lead if I were to contribute further. -- InShane (talk) 15:35, 28 March 2016 (PDT)

Attempt at having a Format

Righto, for the current Community Scout strategy page, I'm following this type of format to make things easier to sort:

• General Strategy
  • Class advantages and general tips
  • Gamemode-based tips
  • Anti-class tips
  • Item-specific tips

• Weapons
  • Weapon statistics and a summary of its playstyle, benefits and flaws
  • Weapon strengths, and what it can do compared to the class' stock weapon
  • Weapon weaknesses, and advice on what not to do/how to get around it
  • Weapon techniques
  • Weapon synergies, such as equipping another weapon to enhance the weapon's ability/make up for the weapon's weaknesses

• Weapon Combinations
  • First Paragraph: Short explanation of what the combination excels at, but at what cost
  • Explanation Type 1:
    • Separate paragraph explaining each loadout slot's utility (eg. Shortstop, Mad Milk, Fan O'War)
    • ...then a paragraph explaining weaknesses (eg. Lack of firepower)
  • Explanation Type 2:
    • Separate paragraph detailing the use of weapon combos for specific advantages
      • (eg. Combine a Force-A-Nature jump and an Atomizer jump to reach great heights)
    • ...then a paragraph explaining tactics to fully utilize the combo and what to watch out for
      • (eg. Keep the Pocket Pistol holstered until you are at a height that's safe to heal up your Atomizer's 10 health jump)

• Cooperative Class Strategies
  • Short summary of class-class advantages
  • Duties and techniques of each class
  • Gamemode-specific tips
  • Loadout and weapon-based tactics
  • Weaknesses and how to work around them

Do note that this is just a guide. It would be appreciated if you follow it, as it will make updating and sorting the Strategy Pages easier.

I might add more but that's all for now, because I am currently finishing the Cooperative Class Strategies. I'm putting this here so I and other editors have an easier time sorting all this info out, and mess will be minimized. Revisions will be appreciated, and if this sound like a good format, I will attempt to make a style page in the help guide to notify any future editors.

I also realized that the Community Scout strategy page is the only one without a Class Combat Strategies section. I may add in that section sometime soon, but I'm currently doing the Community Soldier strategy page. Archrelico "Mexi" 04:50, 1 April 2016 (PDT)

Community Strategy: not exactly regularly updated

From what I've seen from my work a few months ago, the community strategy pages are still very outdated. There were still stats from way before EOTL, and I was still re-updating Community Pyro Strategy before getting busy the past few months. Can I change the community strats status to "requires updating"? Archrelico "Mexi" 11:11, 5 September 2016 (PDT)

I can. Right now I'm going through pages that need content. Which pages need to get updated? -- Dr. Scaphandre 11:58, 5 September 2016 (PDT)

The pages from Community Pyro Strategy onward needs some serious rewriting. Basic Strategy were redone by me and InShane so they should be fine. Community Scout and Soldier were rewritten by me a few months ago but need to be revisited to check for any Meet Your Match patch changes, and I'm currently doing Community Pyro. I've been away for a few months but I think i can finally continue the rest of the pages. -- Archrelico "Mexi" 15:14, 5 September 2016 (PDT)

Alright I already reclassified them. I also put a notice to recruit some more contributors, as you and I both know we can't do this alone. More details are below in the other topic. -- Dr. Scaphandre 15:19, 5 September 2016 (PDT)

We need new contributors

A problem that we've been facing is we've hardly been updating these pages. I created this project to bring awareness to Community Strategy pages, but it seems a lot of users still forget about these guides. So we need to start recruiting new contributors so we can get these pages updated, filled, and done. Anyone have any ideas they want to bring to the table? -- Dr. Scaphandre 13:35, 5 September 2016 (PDT)

I honestly feel like I'm the only one updating the Community Strategy pages, and even during my recent 3-4 month break, barely anyone else has done any major changes to the pages. Unfortunately it also seems like I'm the only one in my group of friends who's remotely interested in wiki editing, so I'm not sure who else I could bring to the project. -- Archrelico "Mexi" 15:23, 5 September 2016 (PDT)

Style guide/Community Strategy - Map Strategies

My interest is in the presently missing Map Strategies; which is a way to say that at present I am not current with what has been happening with Weapon and Class Strategies. ( I remember from limited involvement in those years ago that there was ample room for grammatical and structural improvement. This state may well have been improved?) I have just scratched the surface with completing Map strategies, so my comments here might not be broadly applicable or fully informed.

My contribution pace may seem a bit slow, but it depends on the variability of the time I have to write as well as whether the Muse strikes me.

I have made some changes to the Community Strategy style guide, with intention of contributing additional sections to that style guide (work in progress):

=== Strategy architecture === (How Community strategy pages “work” wrt other articles)

• In Class, Mode, or Map pages, place a Strategy section with a link(s) to a Community strategy page(s) and possibly particularly notable high-level strategies.
• In Map pages, place a Location section, with bolded locations that are thus available for reference in the Community Map strategy page
• Community Map strategy page: lead the article with a link to the Community Game Mode strategy page. Lead subsections with any other relevant Community Game Mode strategy

=== Game Mode strategy vs. Map strategy ===

• A distinction that minimizes repetition of Mode-specific strategy across multiple Map-specific strategy pages. This is both an article congestion and maintenance issue.

=== Locations === (How Locations in the main article “work” wrt the Community Map strategy page)

• Discussion of the importance of a complete Locations section to the Map Strategy.

Mikado282 (talk) 18:27, 27 January 2018 (UTC) 01:30, 28 January 2018 (UTC)