Talk:Underworld/Archive 1
Contents
Original Discussion
Initial discussion for creating this page was started here. M I K A D O 282 🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃 🎃🎃 🎃🎃 (talk) (To Do) 19:04, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
Content better contributed to the main articles
@BrazilianNut: I agreed that a broad topic article was needed and you did do a lot of writing, but it is a concern that much of what you placed in this page is redundant to what should be in the main articles for each feature. I know you are happy with what is there, but, I pains me to say, I think it is too much. I Disagree that so much detail is needed in the Broad Topic. On the upside, some of what you put here is good content for the main articles.
I sincerely hope my comments are received as positively as possible. I can see that you worked on being to be brief with several of the sections (Cauldron, Ghost Fort, Gravestone). Because the descriptions, details and mechanics should be completely covered in the main articles, what should be here should be as brief as possible; I personally prefer a translation switching table (see bottom).
- Gravestone: Please consider that the Witching Hour and Bumper Car Race section in the main article are stubs. My hope is that someone contributes to the sections in the main rather than being tempted to expand the paragraphs in this page.
- Much of you content in Purgatory and Hell for Brimstone could be better contributed to the main Brimstone page.
- Your Cauldron section is reasonably sized, for a textual summary, but second paragraph for Cauldron is much better contributed to the main Cauldron article in its own section.
- The Underworld Section for Bumper Cars should/will receive a Merge tag. Clearly the cut an paste of the Bumper Car spells here was unnecessary. It is unnecessary that the summary of the games have as much text the games in the main article. Where there is content that is in the Underworld sections that is not in the main, you should contribute it to the main article.
- The Cursed Cove section is bigger than the Dave Jones' Locker section in the main article, this should be the other way around. I don't see the benefit of describing the Location here.
- "... appears as the bottom of the sea, with algae and corals dotting the landscape. Players will spawn in front of one of the two giant skulls, ..." belongs in Dave Jones' Locker of the main, but not here.
- "Every minute or so in... This points out that timing is missing in the main article.
- Eyeaduct: I wouldn't have added more detail about the cosmetics of the Locations than is in the present main article. What is different about your Eyeaduct is that it goes into detail of the buffs, which you do not do for the other sections. I do not suggest that you do that necessarily, even if I really would like to see a comparison of buffs, paragraphs of text is not an effective way of doing that. I think it would be better for a broad topic page to have all the underworlds in a table, with columns for "Picture", "Access", "Exit" "Hazards", "Entry buffs", "Exit buffs", and "Time-limiting effects". Compare this with Template:List of Halloween maps), rather that trying to textually summaries and compare all of the Halloween maps, the characteristics of the maps were extracted into a terse table.
- M I K A D O 282 🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃 🎃🎃 🎃🎃 (talk) (To Do) 03:43, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
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I'm sorry if I went into too much detail. I guess I got excited with creating the page and let myself get carried away.
My turn to criticize your work. :P
Although I like the stuff you added, I'd like to point some things out:
- "Underworld can also specifically refer to those haunted islands surrounded by lethal stygian waters" - Slasher and Cauldron both have Underworlds called simply "Underworld" that do not feature stygian waters. Also, "can specifically" sounds a bit... Off, don't you think ("it has the possibility of being specific")? :B
- There is only one Loot Island, and it's the one in Eyeaduct's Purgatory. No other map has used that name.
- Ghost Fort's Skull Island does not have a horned skull, it's the Skull Island in Helltower's Hell that does.
- Technically, only two achievement items "can only be earned in certain Underworld locations": the Bombinomicon and the Unfilled Fancy Spellbook (three if you count the extra Halloween Gift Caudron from Bumper To Bumper To Bumper).
- The Mildly Disturbing Halloween Mask, the Ghastly Gibus, the Haunted Metal Scrap and the items it can be crafted into, the Saxton Hale Mask, and the Necro-Smasher can all be earned outside of Underworlds (while the Necro-Smasher requires playing the bumper car mini-games, if the fourth CoC achievement is Arms Reduction, then it is obtained outside the bumper cars realm).
- The Skull Island Topper is earned on Ghost Fort's Skull Island, which is not an Underworld (I listed it as such because of its similarity with Underworlds, but I made sure that I noted it isn't one).
I think it would be best to remove the "Underworlds" section, to simply have a list of maps with Underworld locations, and, as you said, transfer its contents to the pages of the maps those locations belong to. Yes, I spent a lot of time writing all that, but I think it would be the optimal choice. - BrazilianNut (talk) 08:44, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
- I think you can really help with the corrections updates to the lead bullets. I wrote them before SF 2017, with only a quick limited update late last night. The intention in the bullets is to provide some definition for the common names used on multiple maps, and as you have seen, there are now exceptions. But I think disambiguations could eventually link here for
- Underworld (proper): There may now be no consistent definition; and if none can be found, the rest of the bullet list may be untenable. Suggestions? "... or other lethal zones" (or falls)?
- The ideas I am trying to express and come to terms with here it that there are two distinct usages of Underworld; 1) Specific Locations named Underworld (proper) by Developers and Valve. 2) The broad Underworld term commonly used for the broad class of alternate play locations.
- Loot Island (proper): Yes, there is only one Loot Island. But in the Community (and IIRC, Developer discussions) the term has been used (non-proper) for any island that either gives loot or has a skull or Bombinomicon.
- Skull Island (proper): You are right. Does it work just to delete "horned"? Or is there only one "Skull Island" and all the horned ones are Hell or something? Is Moonshine Event horned?
- Achievement items: As Valve seems to continue to drift increasingly way from Underworld Achievements, the bullet has less relevance. Wait! The Contracts have pick up the torch! How about, "Achievements, Achievement items, and Contracts..." ?
- Additional points:
- Can you go through the Workshops and game files for the new maps and see if any other Developer's names for Locations are given?
- I would prefer (I could be wrong) for someone to eventually make up a table to replace the list under List of maps with Underworld locations to the present list, but it it doesn't need to be done immediately. (Honestly, I created Halloween map for my own use as an editor, I needed it to help me to keep all the feaures of the different maps straight as I wrote, but I also hoped that others would appreciate it. If I were to create the table here, I would be in the same spirit. 👻)
- As it could be a complex table, I wouldn't expect the first version to use translation switching as the content is decided.
- I think a column each for "Entry Buffs" (most but not all heal, a few overheal) and "Exit Buffs" would be most useful to new users. (Still, the main article should have full textual detail on the Buff.
- An "Access" column might also be useful to the new player as it is not always obvious. The complete accesses for Brimstone took me hours to fully confirm. I see hardly anyone using the access coffins in Gravestone (Do they not know or do they not care?)
- Thank you for the discussion.
- M I K A D O 282 🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃 🎃🎃 🎃🎃 (talk) (To Do) 14:01, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
- Also, I also see how Skull Island is not "under the world" because you can see it right there from the main level. But it is functionally and cosmetically Underworld? Is it the the whole main level that is Underworld?
- M I K A D O 282 🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃 🎃🎃 🎃🎃 (talk) (To Do) 14:24, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
The mold is broken
So, examining the Underworlds of this update, it is inescapable that there is no consistent application of the common proper names (i.e., Underworld, Purgatory, Hell) So, I am considering reworking the lead bullets to just a list of the first few innovative Underworlds (essentially, the same list, but with all generality removed) Then work up a list of attributes (e.g., Entry Buffs: No Heal/Full Heal/Overheal; Exit Buffs: Full Heal/Overheal/Invulnerability/Crits; Hazards: Pitfall/Health Drain/Stygian Waters/Lava/Astral fall/Skeletons/etc.; Access: White Portals (fixed)/Purple (random)/Bombinomicon; Exit: Portal/Prize Skull/Round; and maybe a last column for Prize/Achievement/Contract. Then it would be fairly easy to make a table, each distinct Underworld getting its own row (e.g., three rows in the table each for Brimstone and Gravestone, but 2 rows for Hellstone. M I K A D O 282 🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃 🎃🎃 🎃🎃 (talk) (To Do) 01:52, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
- Example limited notes: Gravestone Island Exit Buff: Overheal/Invulnerability/Crits. Cauldron Exit Buff: Full Heal/Invulnerability/Crits(?) M I K A D O 282 🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃 🎃🎃 🎃🎃 (talk) (To Do) 03:25, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
"Underworld-like areas" section?
As discussed before, it's a bit uncertain if Skull Island is an Underworld-like area, or if the entirety of Ghost Fort is an Underworld, thus making Skull Island an area in an Underworld. There is also the interior of the flying saucer in Probed, which acts the exact same way as most Underworlds, but I believe everyone will agree with me when I say it is not one (it's a flying saucer, not some Shadow Realm). Lastly, there is Monster Bash's Pit, which, again, acts just like an Underworld (and is even referred to as such by the game, though this could be just Valve reusing the "playername has escaped the underworld!" asset), but looks and feels much more like a hidden area of the castle than some other plane of existence (at least to me it does).
So my suggestion is: to create an "Underworld-like areas" section, with some text like
- Certain maps feature secondary play areas that act very similarly to Underworlds, with features such as draining the player's health while they're there and rewarding them for managing to leave alive, however, because their settings greatly differs from the usual, they are not considered as such
and then a list of maps with Underworld-like areas, descriptions of these areas, or both. - BrazilianNut (talk) 05:44, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
"Underworlds" table example
How about this instead of the current "Underworlds" section?
| Map | Underworlds | Descriptions | Pictures |
|---|---|---|---|
| Brimstone |
|
|
|
| Cauldron | Underworld |
Cauldron's Underworld consists of a series of islands rising from a toxic swamp engulfed in poisonous air in front of a small mansion with a clock tower. Two floating cauldrons serve as moving platforms. |
|
We could also leave more technical details, like how to enter each area and entry/exit buffs, to the articles about their maps. - BrazilianNut (talk) 07:24, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
- We could also leave more technical details, ... to the articles about their maps. This is the fundamental disagreement we have here. With the ways I personally use this wiki, any Description column is of no use or interest to me. "... consists of a series of islands rising from a toxic swamp engulfed in poisonous air in front of a small mansion with a clock tower. Two floating cauldrons serve as moving platforms." I can and should get from the image and the link to the main article. Including the image in the table is worth a 1000 words of description.
- The real uselessness to me would really just be a list of images and links to the Underworld articles. The secondary usefulness to me would be the additions of the parametric attributes which in the tersest possible manner compares and contrasts the various Underworlds (yes, this is information that should be in the main article, but I am more interested in the distilled artibutes that get buried in inconsistent descriptive text. The mechanics of the Underworlds are what I want to know, not the appearance. Format follows existing List of maps style tables (which have no Description column).
- Names could be linked to the description sections (or anchors) if they exist. Many other contextual links can be added later (e.g., to various Env deaths/buffs).
- The Prize column could be optional.
- Not worried about sorting at this point.
- The buffs could be italicized and combined into the Access/Exit Column (see List of companies, Halloween map).
- (?) = Unconfirmed/not measured yet
| Map | Underworld | Access | Entry Buffs |
Hazards | Exiting | Exit Buffs |
Spells | Prize/ Achievement/ Contract | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Eyeaduct | Underworld | MONOCULUS portal, Bombinomicon |
Full Heal | Health drain, Stygian water |
White portal | Overheal, Invulnerability, Crit boost, Speed boost |
||
|
Eyeaduct | Loot Island | MONOCULUS defeat | Full Heal | Stygian water, Explosion |
Prize skull | Overheal, Invulnerability, Crit boost, Speed boost |
-- | Bombinomicon Dive Into A Good Book |
|
Helltower | Hell | End of Payload Race |
(winners boosted?) | Lava | End of round | -- | (some rare?) | Unfilled Fancy Spellbook/ Hat Out of Hell' |
| Gravestone | Island | Witching Hour white portals |
Full Heal Invulnerability |
Health drain, Stygian water |
White portal | Overheal, Invulnerability, Crit boost |
Rare (2) Normal(1) |
||
| Gravestone | Graveyard | MONOCULUS portal/ MONOCULUS defeat |
Full Heal(?) | Pitfall | White portal | Overheal, Invulnerability, Crit boost |
Rare (1)/(5) | ||
| Gravestone | Bumper Car Race |
End of Payload | None | Stygian water | End of round | -- | (?some) | ||
|
Brimstone | Purgatory | MONOCULUS portal Bombinomicon |
Overheal, Invulnerability |
Health drain, Lava, Skeletons |
White portal | Overheal, Invulnerability, Crit boost, Speed boost |
Rare (3) | |
|
Brimstone | Hell Island | White portals at Final, MONOCULUS defeat, Exploded Final |
None | Health drain, Lava, Skeletons |
White portal | Overheal, Invulnerability, Crit boost, Speed boost |
Rare (3) | |
|
Cauldron | Underworld | Triggered portals | Full Heal(?) | Health drain, Stygian water |
White portal | Full Heal, Invulnerability |
(some?) | |
- M I K A D O 282 🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃 🎃🎃 🎃🎃 (talk) (To Do) 12:55, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
- I meant to add the statement that if you are doing (which I was hoping) most of the work, then maybe you get more of a say. M I K A D O 282 🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃 🎃🎃 🎃🎃 (talk) (To Do) 19:26, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
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Yeah, that's a much better table than mine.
I think your table is good as is, but we could remove the last column, as only a few maps have achievements and achievement items, and adding contracts would be kind of redundant with the Halloween Contracts article. Maybe have a section highlighting the achievements directly linked to Underworlds, such as Dive Into A Good Book, or just links to Halloween Contracts, Halloween achievements, and Obtaining Halloween achievements, either as a section or in See also.
My only pet peeve with your table is how map and underworld names are centered while everything else is aligned to the left.
Don't worry about me. It is not my article, it's the wiki's. It's ours. You have as much of a say and as much right to edit it as I do. - BrazilianNut (talk) 23:25, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
- Remove the Prize Column
- Left align the Image, Map, and Names columns.
- TBD: Halloween Contracts, Halloween achievements, etc.
- The headings are arrange to flow like a narrative, so I am thinking of a formula for writing (rewriting some) the Underwood paragraphs in the main articles. With that in mind the Spells could be move to follow Hazards (or lead them).
- This exercise pointed out missing content in the articles, to be added there, or to be researched.
- e.g., I thought that the winning team under Helltower got special buff. Overheal?
For /doc: (suggestions?)
- Access: White portals (fixed)/MONOCULUS portal (random)/MONOCULUS defeat/Bombinomicon portal/End of round
- Entry Buffs: No Heal/Full Heal/Overheal/Reload
- Hazards: Health drain/Stygian waters/Pitfall/Lava/Astral fall/Skeletons/etc.
- Spells: Rare (#)/Normal (#)
- Exiting: Portal/Prize Skull/End of Round
- Exit Buffs: Full Heal/Overheal/Invulnerability/Critical hits/Speed boost
- M I K A D O 282 🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃 🎃🎃 🎃🎃 (talk) (To Do) 01:17, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
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No, don't align Image, Map and Underworld to the left; center the other columns. :V - BrazilianNut (talk) 01:56, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
- Want to start a collaboration on the table in your Sandbox (User:BrazilianNut/Sandbox/List of Underworlds). I wouldn't start of trying to make it a template just yet. Make an open invite for colaboration. M I K A D O 282 🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃 🎃🎃 🎃🎃 (talk) (To Do) 14:16, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
Quotation suggestions
Scout:
- "I did it!" - The Scout leaving an Underworld.
- "I regret everything! I regret everything I've ever done!" - The Scout on his way to Hell.
- "So scared!" - The Scout arriving in an Underworld.
Soldier:
- "You cannot burn me, I'm already on fire!" - The Soldier about the flames of Hell.
- "I am scared, you maggots!" - The Soldier arriving in an Underworld.
Demoman:
- "Oh, they're goin' ta have to glue you back together...IN HELL!" - The Demoman.
- "Burn! In! HELL!'" - The Demoman.
- "I did what I could!" - The Demoman on his way to Hell.
- "That wasn't supposed ta' happen!" - The Demoman finding himself in Hell.
- "Awww.... there's a new angel in heaven... IN HELL!" - The Demoman.
Medic:
- "Zhe horror! Zhe horror!" - The Medic arriving in Hell.
- "I can't take it any more!" - The Medic in Hell.
- "Help me!" (Unstable laughter) - The Medic after an eternity in Hell.
Spy:
- "Is this... Mon Dieu!" - The Spy arriving in Hell.
- "As long as nothing supernatural happens, this should be easy." - The Spy.
- "God, help us!" - The Spy arriving in Hell.
- BrazilianNut (talk) 17:56, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
- I haven't worried about it too much. My first thoughts were to see if Merasmus had anything to say appropriate. Remember, there's no requirement that it actually be a voice line. I don't know if there is anything useful in the Halloween comics. Anything in any of the early Scream Fortress updates, I'm thinking about commentary on the release of, say, Eyeaduct. M I K A D O 282 🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃 🎃🎃 🎃🎃 (talk) (To Do) 19:10, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, I know they don't have to be necessarily a voice line, but they're the easiest to look through.
- Haven't worried about it either, it was just something I thought of adding to give the page a bit more life the other day and put together in five minutes or so today.
- - BrazilianNut (talk) 21:00, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
