Talk:BLU/Archive 1

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it.

Hexidecimal color

Does anyone know the actual hexadecimal reference color used for Blu team? --Smashdaisaku 02:23, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Try #4c7586 ==Fax Celestis _talkcontrib^home 10:54, 30 July 2012 (PDT)

BLU Merchandise

With the Mann Co. page it has a list of associated merchandise from the Valve store. Why not do the same for this, it would allow people to easily search for cloths or accessory's featuring BLU team. Simple 02:46, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Those unofficial sites

Do they really have a place on the RED and BLU team pages? Balladofwindfishes 19:31, 4 August 2011 (PDT)

I second that. Rolandius 06:39, 7 September 2011 (PDT)

Question

Do they really control "half the world's governments"? Rolandius 06:37, 7 September 2011 (PDT)

I can't provide a source but I think something to that effect was stated in an introductory blurb when tf2 was first launching in 2007. It's one of those weird things that was mentioned in tf2's early days, but never referenced again, like the Scout initially being able to run faster then everyone else due to a caffine ediction.MEDUNN 06:45, 7 September 2011 (PDT)

The page on RED says that they also control half of the world's governments. Between the two companies, I guess that would mean they own the whole world. Rolandius 06:55, 7 September 2011 (PDT)

Yeah I think that was initially the idea, but it hasn't been referenced since and there is plently of storyline stuff that has come out subsequently that contradicts it, but it was never officially been revoked, like the Scout's coffee addiction its just been quietly dropped.MEDUNN 06:58, 7 September 2011 (PDT)

Intro Quote

I noticed this page lacks a quote on top, like most pages (including RED), that have one. I will see if I can find something suitable, and I'll put it in for other people to give opinions or alternatives :) -- Jokerine 14:49, 24 September 2011 (PDT)

Requesting merge

I am requesting a merge with red team as much of the content on the pages are already near identical with the only major diffrences being the galery. Padacuw (talk) 09:38, 24 June 2017 (PDT)

 Oppose I admit irritation when I first read how identical the two articles are. However, as I have mellowed with time, I realize that there are reasons for this. Central to the Mythos of the game is how undifferent the sides are and how arbitrary any designation is. Practically, however, there are conventions as to the designations of the color of the attack and defend teams; and some simple designation is needed in describing the gameplay and mechanics of specific maps. Moreover, RED and BLU have stood the test of time as separate articles; there are now countless links to the two pages throughout the wiki. Also, many editors have struggled mightily to assay meaning in character colors in the TF2 media. Finally, IMO, arbitrary as the distinction is, Administrator harbors a long-standing RED team bias, which may come out in future comics as Redmond's and Blutarch's activities in the storyline have not been precisely equivalent. Mikado282 (talk) 11:02, 24 June 2017 (PDT)

1) The fact that Red is always defend and Blu is always attack only helps new players (that tf2 has very few off) and is always on the game mode's page but the team page only confuses new players as it says that Red is a demolision company and Blu is a construction company.

2)A quick edit to Windbot's code would make it fix the links to the page.Couple that with the humons on the site and we could have all English pages fixed in a fortnight and all translated pages fixed in 1 and 1/2 months.

3)That is a miniscule difference and hasn't come into play in the comics in any big way if somthing does happen in the future (witch I highly dout it will) we can split them again but right now we need to think of the present. Padacuw (talk) 13:00, 24 June 2017 (PDT)

You're correct Mikado, the links are placed all over the wiki, but solely linking must not be a valid reason for or against an action like a merge. — shots fired by: Nikno {Talk | Contribs} 00:27, 25 June 2017 (PDT)

 Neutral: With regards to content I would agree with Padacuw, the pages are similar copies of each other that need to be maintained separately, only having little content that is different which could be easily condensed on one page, e. g. "Teams". On the other hand if we look at it with the TF universe in mind, the 2 separate articles not only reflect the rivalry between those two teams, it also follows up on Valve's irony in those 2 teams since they're on the one hand very identical and on the other hand quite different, I especially like Mikado's "arbitrary designation" here. This should be weighed up before deciding in my opinion. — shots fired by: Nikno {Talk | Contribs} 00:27, 25 June 2017 (PDT)

A question that needs to be answered as well would be a more concrete offering of how would you merge them? Would the merge be any less annoying, even if annoying in a different way? Would you show both RED and BLU images and parameters in the Infobox? I think you trade repetition (which actually has some purpose) for the awkwardness of having to interleave "RED and BLU" cases, "RED or BLU" cases, "RED but not BLU" cases, etc. In the balance is there any real gain in the trade off worth the effort of the architectural change?

Even if the designations are arbitrary, Valve has made designations; whole suites of consistent bi-colored and bi-themed artwork are committed to Gabe Newell's concept of playable level design for Team Fortress 2: RED is antique and rusty, BLU and sharp; RED is the hero, BLU is the villain. Sure those distinctions are not echoed in the present RED and BLU pages, but maybe it is time that those distinctions be added, rather than merging. Sure, when the TFwiki started, there was not much RED and BLU storyline, but now there is more.

RED (Reliable Excavation Demolition), nominally led by founder and CEO Redmond Mann and allegedly specializing in "demolition operations", and BLU (Builders League United), nominally led by founder and CEO Blutarch Mann and allegedly specializing in "construction operations", are secret subsidiaries of TF Industries. In reality, from behind a myriad of sub-fronts, each company secretly controls half the world's governments, both under the actual control of the Administrator; control so secretive and manipulative that neither recognizes that they are part of the same organization and plot. Hmmmm.....

I don't see how the present articles confuse new players, the articles are not intended to teach mechanics to new players. The separate articles teach new storyline readers a major part of the storyline, a storyline in which there is a RED Company and a BLU Company that were instrumental in whatever Administrator has been up to.

FWIW, Valve has also played up this idea by offering merchandise that show allegiance to one side or the other (that is, I think Valve would say keep them two). Mikado282 (talk) 14:57, 25 June 2017 (PDT)

1) As you can see below I have included my vision of what the new page would look like it is by no means what the actual page would look like (needs infobox etc,) but servres as an idea for what I think it sould be like.

2) I have no idea how to code an infobox but I assume that one could easly paste the two images together in photoshop or even paint

3) I don't understand what you mean by "the awkwardness of having to interleave "RED and BLU" cases, "RED or BLU" cases, "RED but not BLU" cases, etc.", but I think you misunderstand me. No other pages would be rewitten, simply the links to Red and Blu would be the same page

4) The artwork in maps are only there so people won't get lost as the layout of the map is the same for both sides

5) I would be happy with rewriting the articles to make them different as long as the changes are noteworthy and not limeted to the trivia section

6) That was not my point. My point was that it already says that on the game mode's page and doesn't need to be on this page as well

7) Valve didn't introduce the mechendise to let people support their team, they did it for profit. If they did do it to encourege team support they would release all merch in both colours

Padacuw (talk) 19:12, 25 June 2017 (PDT)

The problem I see is that the current page configuration has nearly no downsides (maintenance is very little since the pages are really static) whereas merging them brings up quite some points (see Mikado282) against it. I'm very happy that you're heavily discussing here, improving the wiki, but maybe here would be the point to instead improve the current, separated article regarding content instead of merging them. Generally I don't have any objections against a merge, but I don't see much contra against 2 separate articles, instead lots of contra against a merge.

At the current point I plead against a merge, but feel free to continue the discussion. — shots fired by: Nikno {Talk | Contribs} 00:15, 26 June 2017 (PDT)

I would like to see what changes to the pages would be made to update them as both of you are sugesting. The problem that I have with the current pages is that they are so similer to each other. I feel that a merge would tidy the wiki up.

Padacuw (talk) 05:55, 26 June 2017 (PDT)

Update

The more I look at them, the (even) less I think they need to change. They are intended to be twin articles. I had thought about tagging on the end of RED a statement that the RED team became the Mann Co. mercenaries for the Robot Wars. But, I see now that that is wrong on two points. First, what has been missed all along, is that these two articles are not about the teams, they are about the Companies. Second, the red-uniformed team in the Robot War is not the RED team, the mercenaries were hired from both the RED and BLU teams by Mann Co.

I have more recently thought about adding to each article the storyline of the death of its CEO and subsequent reversion of the Company to Mann Co., and subsequent firing and rehiring of the Company's mercenaries by Mann Co., but that might be clumsy.

I suggest adding the following disambiguation hatnote to both articles: "This article is about the Company that employs one of the two teams of mercenaries in the Gravel Wars storyline. For the role of the red/blue-uniformed team the Company employs, see Teams." That should more than address any confusion that may be, but I am not committed to that hatnote, ... comment? MIKADO282 oOOOOo oo oo 02:30, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Closure

The result of the discussion was "do not merge". MIKADO282 oOOOOo oo oo 15:19, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

My idea of the new page

It's in my sandbox: User:Padacuw/Sandbox/Teams

The preceding discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it.