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| − | Err...I don't know if this is really apporpriate for a page, as we try to keep controversies out of the wiki. I see you put a lot of hard work into it, so I think the rest of the staff ought to voice whether or not to keep it.--[[User:Piemanmoo|Piemanmoo]] {{mod}} 22:39, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
| + | {{Talk archive |
| − | :Eh, marked for deletion: Not helpful, fuel for controversy, lack of neutral tone, writing style, etc. Sorry. -[[User:The Neotank|<font color="#FF8C00">'''The Neotank'''</font>]] ({{mod}}<small> | [[User talk:The Neotank|Talk]]</small>) [[File:User The Neotank Signeotank.jpg]] 23:04, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
| + | | arc1name = Archive 1 |
| − | :I don't like this at all – we're not covering controversies now? I disagree that the page requires a full article, however, I don't see why there cannot be at least a section on [[Cheater's Lament]] explaining the controversy. [[User:Seb26|<font color="#0B61A4">'''seb26'''</font>]] [[User talk:Seb26|<span style="font-size:95%;">[talk]</span>]] 04:15, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
| + | | arc1link = Talk:Idling/Archive 1 |
| − | ::Unless reasonable opposition appears soon, I say we delete this. -[[User:The Neotank|<font color="#FF8C00">'''The Neotank'''</font>]] ({{mod}}<small> | [[User talk:The Neotank|Talk]]</small>) [[File:User The Neotank Signeotank.jpg]] 22:58, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | == Suggestions ==
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| − | Can this be reworded? "''With the onset of the recent Polycount Update, anyone who used SteamStats back before it was patched now received a Cheater's Lament.''" - Statement should also indicate that some accounts, that did not receive the first [[Cheater's Lament]], and were only active after SteamStats occured, also recieved the Cheater's Lament.[[User:Nooch|Nooch]] 22:52, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | ::However, this piece of information has nothing to do with idling, and everything to do with the Cheater's Lament. File it there, not here. [[User:Subtlefuge|Subtlefuge]] 23:01, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | Yesterday i tried editing the page, my edit was lost when the edit before me was undone. maybe i should have started here 1st anyway? I'd suggest the the page start with a simpler statement? '''''Idling''' is the term for players who join a Team Fortress 2 [[server]] and do nothing. While connected to the server, players are eligible to recieve [[items]] from the [[item drop system]]''.[[User:Nooch|Nooch]] 15:30, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | ==My reasoning==
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| − | As long as a controversial subject is maintained to be as unbiased as possible, I think it should be allowed. I wrote the page so many newer players can learn what idling is and not begin to think bad thoughts about other players without knowing the full story. Every other day a thread pops up on the forums about idling and the cheater's lament because nowhere really gives unbiased information about both idling in general and the event surrounding it.
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| − | I really wanted to keep it as unbiased as possible, hence why I avoided popular terms like "Halocaust", so any body who just wants to learn can see what happened and why. Sorry if it caused any unrest. [[User:Darthz01|Darthz01]] 23:00, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | == Keep / Delete ==
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| − | {{Discussion header|top}}
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| − | :''Discussion started 13/10/10. Discussion ends 20/10/10.'' -[[User:RJackson|<span style="background-color:#FF0000;color:white;font-size:0.7em;padding: 0 2px;">RJ</span>]]{{mod}} 01:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | While the subject matter is something we should probably cover, this article is rather poorly written. Opinions? {{n}}[[User:Smashman|<span class="bur">Smashman</span>]]<sub> ([[User_talk:Smashman|talk]])</sub> {{bur}} 23:09, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | :{{c|x|Delete}} A poorly written can of worms that I don't think we should pop open. -[[User:The Neotank|<font color="#FF8C00">'''The Neotank'''</font>]] ({{mod}}<small> | [[User talk:The Neotank|Talk]]</small>) [[File:User The Neotank Signeotank.jpg]] 23:14, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | ::An idling page is a high risk page, lots of potential issues and almost guaranteed to be vandalized multiple times a week. I say we either scrap it completely or scrap the current page and rewrite it entirely. Either way, it should probably be locked once a satisfying result is met. Yes it's a can of worms, but it's one that's already popped open. I just wonder if it's not mentioned here, where will people be getting their information about it? --[[User:Subtlefuge|Subtlefuge]] 02:11, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | :::<small>SPUF. :/ </small> -[[User:The Neotank|<font color="#FF8C00">'''The Neotank'''</font>]] ({{mod}}<small> | [[User talk:The Neotank|Talk]]</small>) [[File:User The Neotank Signeotank.jpg]] 02:17, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | ::::{{c|x|Delete}} I'm convinced. --[[User:Subtlefuge|Subtlefuge]] 02:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | :::::{{c|Keep}}Its a part of the history of the game, not a nice part but a part none the less. It should be locked once the entire content, alignement and neutrality etc is fully agreed. Just because its controversial does not make this any less a part of the game. Also players trying to find out just why they can join achievment civilian version 22 idle need some sort of reference on why they exist. Id add that with offline practice these servers are not needed anymore so its definitely history.--[[User:Markd|Markd]] 10:15, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | ::::::{{c|tick|Keep}}Just needs either the cleanup tag, or for somebody to be assigned the task of cleaning it up. -[[User:RJackson|<span style="background-color:#FF0000;color:white;font-size:0.7em;padding: 0 2px;">RJ</span>]]{{mod}} 01:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | ::::::{{c|Keep}}I agree with keeping it as a part of history of TF2. By accessing the idle page on the wiki, people wondering what the hell idling is about will get a brief history of what idling achieved, the 'safe' ways of idling, the controversy around third-party programs, and the resulting creation of the Cheater's Lament. These are all very important instances in TF2's history and rather than wasting time opening yet another useless thread on SPUF, they will get the annotated history on TF2 wiki. - [[User:Alsoodani|Alsoodani]] 18:58, 16 October 2010 (UTC)Alsoodani
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| − | :::::{{c|tick|Keep}}Team Fortress 2 has become very centered around its community and idling is of importance to the community. I agree that it's controversial and we should tread lightly, but if this page can be rewritten such that it's unbiased and have it stick solely to the base facts, then it should be kept. A year ago I might have voted against it, but these days idling is just a way to hit your item cap sooner. We don't need to have a full technical manual on how to idle and how it works, but it should at least be described. -- [[User:Alex2539|Alex2539]] 02:30, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | :::{{c|=|Neutral}}The wiki needs a place to discuss the various methods for connecting to TF2 games and the likelihood of receiving items from the drop system. And how to do it? This statement from the wiki [[http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Team_Fortress_Wiki:Terms_of_Use terms of use]] is vague "''You will not include in any Posted Material any information or assistance regarding software or hardware processes or functionality that may give a player an unfair competitive advantage when playing multiplayer versions of any Steam Software...''". What terms can be used when discussing the [[item drop system]] - [[idling]]? Define "''competitive advantage''"?[[User:Nooch|Nooch]] 02:43, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | :::::{{c|=|Neutral}} Either nuke it and just make references to it in the item drop page or ,if it really can be saved, it had better be written with a neutral tone and locked forever. No huge page involving 'blah blah bobby got a hat idling' or dumb stuff. Describe and lock it, or nuke it. --[[User:Vaught|Vaught]] 05:10, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | :{{c|tick|Keep}} Seems important. Provided that it's not against the Wiki Terms of Use (that's up to Valve, I guess), re-write it and lock it. [[User:Carooe|Carooe]] 05:51, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | * I've [http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/index.php?title=Idling&diff=126345&oldid=126210 rewritten] the article completely, as I wasn't happy with the structure. It lacked detail and wasn't clear enough to the reader what exactly idling is / what the program was. It also stated that hats were removed & the drop system changed through patches, which is incorrect as the system mechanics are in the Steam Cloud. I say {{c|Keep}}, as the topic is something we should cover. I'll also be keeping an eye on edits to it to avoid any dodgy additions, etc. [[User:Seb26|<font color="#0B61A4">'''seb26'''</font>]] [[User talk:Seb26|<span style="font-size:95%;">[talk]</span>]] 06:05, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | :Just gone over it again suggest once we are happy we just lock or protect the article--[[User:Markd|Markd]] 08:32, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | :{{c|tick|Keep}} I don't see everyone panicking over the [[Hacking]] page, so why should we do so with idling?--[[User:Focusknock|Focusknock]] 08:33, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | ::{{c|tick|Keep}} It would better to keep anyone who searches about it informed, than in the dark. [[User:Nanosheep|(nanosheep_inc)]] 08:58, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | :{{c|=|Neutral}} I don't see the problem with having an article on the subject as long as it conform to the wiki style recommendations. Then again, I would also be fine with merging this into the item drop system article. --[[User:Itsatrap|Itsatrap]] 22:51, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | ::{{c|tick|In favour}} of this suggestion. I think merging it into the drop system article. ~ <code>[[User:Lhavelund|<font color=red><span style="font-size: 1.2em;">'''lhavelund'''</span></font>]]</code> <sup>([[User_talk:lhavelund|t]] ▪ [[Special:Contributions/lhavelund|c]])</sup> 15:31, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | :{{c|tick|Keep}}: Revising my opinion now that the article's been rewritten. May want to merge with [[Item Drop System]] though, as others have said. -[[User:The Neotank|<font color="#FF8C00">'''The Neotank'''</font>]] ({{mod}}<small> | [[User talk:The Neotank|Talk]]</small>) [[File:User The Neotank Signeotank.jpg]] 15:46, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | :{{c|tick|Keep}}: It's a lot better written now (could use a little more) and let's not remove a page because it ''might'' get vandalized. Even if it does, locking is the correct action for that. --[[User:CruelCow|CruelCow]] 16:25, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | :{{c|tick|Keep}} In favor of locking it, as well, so unless we can just lock a certain part of a page, I'm against merging it into another article. <font color="#D462FF">'''''Scurve'''''</font> 19:39, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | {{Discussion header|end}}
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| − | {{C|i|Result of discussion:}} Keep. -- [[User:Pilk|Pilk]] <sub>([[User talk:Pilk|talk]])</sub> 08:11, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
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| − | == Sandboxie\TF2 trading\idling How-To ==
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| − | I figured I post a How-To in case anyone needs it. It uses Sandboxie, with the free version allowing 1 sandbox. It's perfect for trading between 2 accounts on the same computer.
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| − | [http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1609466| One thread on Steam forums.]
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| − | [http://www.sandboxie.com/| Sandboxie.]
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| − | 1. Open Sandboxie, click Sandbox->Create New Sandbox (name it SteamAlt or something)<br>
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| − | 2. Right click SteamAlt and open Sandbox Settings:
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| − | * Restrictions -> Drop Rights -> UNtick 'Drop rights from Administrators and Power Users groups'
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| − | * Resource Access -> File Access -> Direct Access:
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| − | ** Add Program (Steam.exe)
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| − | ** Add directory for Steam.exe, pointing to your copy of the Steam directory (You can copy your copy of Steam and the core TF2 files, in case it conflicts with other running copies.)
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| − | 3. Either right click Steam shortcut and select Run Sandboxed or use the Sandboxie window to run the steam.exe program.
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| − | And if anyone is thinking if it will get you banned...
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| − | ''"Is this safe to do or do you risk getting banned for 3rd party software?"''
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| − | ''"Doubt it. What Vavle was all up in arms about back when they banned everyone for using the idle client was the fact that it used Steam directly. Basically it tricked Steam into thinking it was TF2 which is a big no-no. They don't want 3rd party tools in anyway interfering with Steam.
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| − | Sandboxie on the other hand is just a tool to control applications, to make sure that they don't overwrite files you don't want them, restrict their access the registry or the internet. Also of course to "collect" all files generated in the sandbox in a safe place.
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| − | It does in no way interfere with Steam itself or how Steam operates though, so I doubt Vavle would care."''
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| − | [[User:DennoCoil|DennoCoil]] 04:57, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
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| − | == Idling, Valve and this Page ==
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| − | Is it good idea to keep information how to idle in Wiki? Valve never liked idling, so why should we openly spread this information? The question is: Should we delete this How To Idle part? [[User:DrNightKOT|Teh catteth]] 11:33, 7 September 2011 (PDT)
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| − | :Idling Servers and Achievement Servers are okay. Using external programs isn't. [[User:Calinou|Calinou]] 11:34, 7 September 2011 (PDT)
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| − | ::Then Why did Valve make this week cap? [[User:DrNightKOT|Teh catteth]] 11:38, 7 September 2011 (PDT)
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| − | :::Regardless of what happened in the past idling is a complete non-issue now. Idlers gain no advantage whatsoever over other players. '''<span style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:83%;">—[[File:User Moussekateer signature sprite.png|31px|link=User:Moussekateer]][[User:Moussekateer|<span style="color:black">Moussekateer</span>]]·[[User talk:Moussekateer|<span style="color:black;font-size:82%;">talk</span>]]</span>''' 11:42, 7 September 2011 (PDT)
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| − | == Opinion on removing "methods" from the Idling? ==
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| − | Since Valve has pretty much shown they do care about idling very much, I think it may be wise to simply remove the outdated methods section entirely now since they've covered pretty much all the corners. The only exception is the multiple accounts in which players can play more, which is useful for those that have a lot more spare time.
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| − | But still, to put it in Valve's terms, it's still talking about giving an unfair advantage and allowing people to bypass the weekly drop limit system (although greatly diminished). What do you think?
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| − | [[User:MajorCooke|MajorCooke]] ([[User talk:MajorCooke|talk]]) 09:45, 30 July 2013 (PDT)
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| − | :If anything in the methods section is outdated, then yes it would be best to remove it. --'''[[User:Piemanmoo|Piemanmoo]]''' 11:09, 30 July 2013 (PDT)
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| − | == Why is not doing the objective considered idling? ==
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| − | Players going around killing enemies (in gamemodes other than player destruction and arena) without doing the objective sure as Hell aren't idling. <small>— ''The preceding unsigned comment was added by'' '''[[User:T.D.T.|T.D.T.]]''' ([[User talk:T.D.T.|talk]]) • ([[Special:Contributions/T.D.T.|contribs]]) 20:35 2 February 2021</small>
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| − | : Please remember to '''sign your replies''' with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> · [[User:Ashe|Ashe]] ([[User talk:Ashe|talk]]) 20:44, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
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| − | :This refers to the term "AFK" being used to describe people who aren't doing the objective, not saying that people who aren't doing the objective are idle.<br>[[User:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">GrampaSwood</font>]] ([[User talk:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">talk</font>]]) 20:45, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
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| − | ::Oh, that makes more sense, although I've never heard someone use the term AFK that way.
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| − | ::I think it should be reworded because it is causing a lot of confusion in the TF2 discussions regarding friendlies being idlers.
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| − | ::[[User:T.D.T.|T.D.T.]] ([[User talk:T.D.T.|talk]]) 21:44, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
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| − | ::: I think it's worded fine, but if you can find a way to reword it in a way that does not mention friendlies as being a form of griefing/not being a form of griefing (as the wiki should be neutral on this debate).<br>[[User:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">GrampaSwood</font>]] ([[User talk:GrampaSwood|<font color="DB9C1F">talk</font>]]) 21:56, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
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| − | :::: The article is primarily taking about the history of Idling AFK for drop, nominally on servers built and hosted for that purpose.
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| − | :::: However, it takes pains to mention the other two forms of idling, 1) AFK on objective maps or 2) being active on objective maps but not contributing to the team's progress to the objective.
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| − | ::::* Of the AFK kind, it can be done childishly, discourteously, or maliciously, but also, innocent things causing AFK happen IRL. This kind is called idling because it looks, walks, and talks like AFK Idling for drop.
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| − | ::::* Of the "not-playing to the objective" kind (which ''might'' be my own wording), this is ''also called Idling'', even if the player is actually moving around. This can be called Idling just because, at best, this sort of Idler takes up a place on the team while contributing no more to the team than any AFK Idler would. Well into the Mercenary Park Contracts, certain players would vote-kick anyone with the lowest scores "for being Idle", which is why people grinding Contracts are advised to enough points to avoid getting vote-kicked.
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| − | :::: [[User:Mikado282|<span style="font-family: Impact"><font color="db9c1f">''' M I K A D O 282 '''</font></span><span style="font-family: Arial "><font color="00ff00"> <small>❄</small>❄❄❄❄<small>❄ ❄❄ ❄❄</small></font></span>]] ([[User_talk:Mikado282|'''''talk''''']]) ([[User:Mikado282/Help Wanted!|'''''Help Wanted!''''']]) 01:56, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
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