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| − | The Rimmed Raincatcher must be updated in this template to denote that it can exist with Unusual quality. This change was added as part of the Febuary 14, 2011 Patch.
| + | {{Talk archive |
| − | [[User:SnowCanary|SnowCanary]] 17:57, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
| + | | arc1name = Archive 1 |
| − | | + | | arc1link = Talk:Item quality distribution/Archive 1 |
| − | ==Beak and Phantom==
| + | }} |
| − | Here it is stated that Unusual Beak/Phantom could only found previously. That is untrue, they can still very much be found! [[User:Benvil|Benvil]] 08:38, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :Can anyone update it? [[User:Benvil|Benvil]] 09:20, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :: No, because no one has provided solid proof that this is true. So far each report that I've seen has been disproven, either someone confirmed that it was received in a trade or the item's ID was old enough to go back to the christmas update when they were still in the hat slot. -- [[User:Lagg|Lagg]] [[File:Backpack_Stickybomb_Launcher.png|24px|link=User_talk:Lagg]] 13:07, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
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| − | ==Big Kill==
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| − | There are more vintage items than listed here, even if they are the result of glitches or fooling Customer Support. One example is the Big Kill. I think these items should be added.
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| − | :Agree. The glitched items should be included. --[[User:SandeProElite|SandeProElite]] 12:39, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :No! The list only lists items that have legit vintage qualities. {{n}}[[File:User_Ohyeahcrucz_Sig.png|20px|sub]] [[User:Ohyeahcrucz|<span style="text-shadow:blue 0px 0px 0px;font-size:13px;font-family: Tf2 Build"><font color="blue">Ohyeahcrucz]]</font></span> <span style="font-size:10px;font-weight:bold;font-family: helvetica"><font color="black"><nowiki>[</nowiki>[[User_talk:Ohyeahcrucz|T]]<nowiki>][</nowiki>[[Special:Contributions/Ohyeahcrucz|C]]<nowiki>]</nowiki></font></span> 00:59, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :What if they got their own section? [[User:Cesue|Cesue]] 17:41, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
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| − | {{discussion header|top}}
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| − | These lists will not be merged back into [[Quality]] for a few reasons. One of them being that they already were a part of it at one point and were split away as part of a compromise and due to the fact that these lists will grow, and there will be more made in the near future. Them being collapsed and "not taking any space" in the page is irrelevant. The fact is that they aren't related to [[Quality]] as far as documenting qualities themselves go. These lists document '''items''' that "can" have a particular quality attached to them. I quote can because as we've seen before any item can have any quality attached to it. -- [[User:Lagg|Lagg]] [[File:Backpack_Stickybomb_Launcher.png|24px|link=User_talk:Lagg]] 19:03, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | ==Merge==
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| − | IMHO, we needn't so small article. It will be appropriate to merge it with [[Quality]]. These articles have the same theme. - [[User:Aperture AI|Grand-O-Rand]] 22:20, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :{{c|Support}} You beat me there. Shock394 18:43, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :{{c|Support}} Yeah, this merge proposal looks right to me [[User:Cthulhu1992|Cthulhu1992]] 09:17, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :{{c|Support}} I agree. [[User:Zoon-li|Zoon-li]] 18:41, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :{{c|Support}} Why not. -- [[User:Nightbox|<font color="#008000">Nightbox</font>]]<sub> ([[User_talk:Nightbox|t]] <span class="plainlinks">[http://www.steamcommunity.com/id/nightbox s])</span></sub> 09:48, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | : {{c|No}}. They already were merged with that article at one point however we decided to split them for a few reasons, one that there is likely going to be more lists like this made and another being that we document the qualities themselves there. Not the items that "can" have them, since any item in the game can technically have any other quality. -- [[User:Lagg|Lagg]] [[File:Backpack_Stickybomb_Launcher.png|24px|link=User_talk:Lagg]] 10:23, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :{{c|Support}} Go ahead and merge it. On it own it feels really lacking, and since the lists are hidden by default they won't be in the way within the quality article. [[User:Ailure|Ailure]] 12:03, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :: {{c|No}}. I just gave the reasons the lists aren't in the article itself anymore, and this was not one of them. However it is also a valid reason because assuming a person has JS (what allows the lists to be hidden) enabled by default is not always a good idea on a wiki. -- [[User:Lagg|Lagg]] [[File:Backpack_Stickybomb_Launcher.png|24px|link=User_talk:Lagg]] 13:08, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | ::{{c|Support}} DO IT -
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| − | This is a really pointless page it's basically the same topic as quality but in a different way. This should really be on one page for reader convenience. '''<span style="font-family:aharoni; font-size:110%; font-style:italic;">[[File:RED Überneedle.png|42px|link=User:Lexar]] - <span style="text-decoration:underline">[[User:Lexar|Lexar]]</span> - <span style="text-decoration:underline">[[User talk:Lexar|talk]]</span></span>''' 11:12, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :::{{c|Nope.avi}} A wiki is not designed primarily for reader convenience. I must make it clear that these lists were already part of the quality page at one time but were removed for the reasons I gave above. Please read them. -- [[User:Lagg|Lagg]] [[File:Backpack_Stickybomb_Launcher.png|24px|link=User_talk:Lagg]] 11:37, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | ::::WTF is the wiki for then? If Valve is going to crowdsource their documentation then obviously editors will make the wiki for the convenience of fellow users. I'd flame on and call you an idiot if I weren't so disoriented by your bizarre statement. [[User:Pez|Pez]] 14:03, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | ::::: It's been made quite clear in mediawiki's design philosophy and that of wikis in general that they aren't designed to cater specifically to the casual visitor. This wiki is not a crowd sourcing project, it still is and always has been a project made for and run by the community. The only difference now is that Valve hosts it for us to make it less frustrating for viewers (like yourself) to use it without having to deal with advertisements. I suggest reading up on your wiki history and the history of this one specifically before hurling insults. -- [[User:Lagg|Lagg]] [[File:Backpack_Stickybomb_Launcher.png|24px|link=User_talk:Lagg]] 16:00, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :::::: Why yes Pez, why don't we document every small minor detail and otherwise non-notable little tidbit, let us have mile long worthless trivia sections! Cuz dats whut a weekee be faw liek ay billehbob? No. Go take a look at the old and now un-moderated Wiki site and look how well unrestrained editing has worked out there. And quite frankly, if you have to resort to insults over discussion of an article merge, I don't think you're really mature enough to have a valuable opinion. ~ '''[[User:Ath|Ath]]''' ([[User_talk:Ath|talk]]) 16:36, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | ::::::: What are you even.. I have no opinion on this article merge or on how detailed the documentation should be; I only addressed Lagg's blatantly incorrect statement about the purpose of a community wiki. And don't talk to me about mediawiki, I'm an administrator on the English wikipedia. And I'm glad I'm not one here if this bullshitting is representative of the community at large. [[User:Pez|Pez]] 19:50, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :: {{outdent|::::::::}} Please tell me what was incorrect about it? If you are a wikipedia admin you should know very well that the content is much more important than things that supposedly make it more accessible to the uninitiated visitor, and that pages should stay on topic. You have addressed nothing so far besides lies that someone told you. -- [[User:Lagg|Lagg]] [[File:Backpack_Stickybomb_Launcher.png|24px|link=User_talk:Lagg]] 00:33, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :::::::: Hah! I'm sure the Wikipedia administration would appoint a petulant little child incapable of civil discussion such as yourself. If you have no opinion on this merge then what are you doing here? If you really were the Wikipedia admin you claim to be, you would at least be competant enough to realise that such a (subjective) matter is for Lagg's own talk page, not here. ~ '''[[User:Ath|Ath]]''' ([[User_talk:Ath|talk]]) 20:50, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | ::{{outdent|:::::::}} Uhhh...
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| − | :::''Cuz dats whut a weekee be faw liek ay billehbob?'' -Ath
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| − | :::''I'm sure the Wikipedia administration would appoint a petulant little child incapable of civil discussion such as yourself'' -Ath
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| − | ::Can we not do this, please? As pointed out earlier, this is a community wiki and anyone can comment on whatever they want. I really don't approve of people being told not to even comment because they disagree with what is being said. [[user:seb26|<small style="background:#f9f9f9;border:1px solid #EA6B1C;padding:0em 0.5em;color:#000;-webkit-box-shadow:2px 1px 1px #FBAA78;">'''seb26'''</small>]] 21:02, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :{{c|Oppose}}: There's no need at all. Just a link from there suffices. – [[User:Smashman|<font color=#507D2A>Smashman</font>]]<sub> ([[User_talk:Smashman|talk]])</sub> 11:40, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | ::{{c|Oppose}} These lists frankly shouldn't even exist to begin with. Quality can very easily be change by Valve as we've seen recently; adding this to [[Quality]] would only serve to make that article a target for yet more useless edits. In light of recent events as mentioned, I'll go as far as propose for these lists to be deleted. ~ '''[[User:Ath|Ath]]''' ([[User_talk:Ath|talk]]) 16:27, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :::I'd say the opposite, these lists are needed more then ever. Yes quality can be changed for anything at anytime by Valve. If these lists didn't exist how would a newbie to the game know which items exist in vintage quality? Before yesterdays update they'd have to look through 100 pages to see which ones were released before the Mannconomy update. And now without this list I bet you could not name which weapons were made vintage recently. You may not care about this information but a lot of people do. '''<span style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:83%;">—[[File:User Moussekateer signature sprite.png|31px|link=User:Moussekateer]][[User:Moussekateer|<span style="color:black">Moussekateer</span>]]·[[User talk:Moussekateer|<span style="color:black;font-size:82%;">talk</span>]]</span>''' 20:53, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :::: Should we also document what is "available" in terms of Community and Self-Made? Flukes such as the TTG Lugermorph fiasco? Vintage Max Heads (Biiig market for those) and 119 medals? A newbie isn't going to be interested or potentially even aware of the implications of Vintage, the actual audience in this case will be traders. ~ '''[[User:Ath|Ath]]''' ([[User_talk:Ath|talk]]) 23:23, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :::::Whether we like it or not trading '''is''' part of the game now. A player will want to know why other players value their vintage weapons more than unique ones, why he'll have trouble trading his unique one for a vintage one and why others are making a fuss over a vintage Max's Severed Head or vintage Bill's hat. '''<span style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:83%;">—[[File:User Moussekateer signature sprite.png|31px|link=User:Moussekateer]][[User:Moussekateer|<span style="color:black">Moussekateer</span>]]·[[User talk:Moussekateer|<span style="color:black;font-size:82%;">talk</span>]]</span>''' 23:33, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :::::: I fail to see what relevance that arguement has to these lists. All of those examples you state are solved by the explanations on Quality, such as valuation of Vintage over Unique; not these lists. ~ '''[[User:Ath|Ath]]''' ([[User_talk:Ath|talk]]) 00:03, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :::::::Because for one reason or another people are interested in knowing which items can exist in which quality, as seen [http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1794436 here]. An explanation of the quality is not helpful. '''<span style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:83%;">—[[File:User Moussekateer signature sprite.png|31px|link=User:Moussekateer]][[User:Moussekateer|<span style="color:black">Moussekateer</span>]]·[[User talk:Moussekateer|<span style="color:black;font-size:82%;">talk</span>]]</span>''' 00:16, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :::::::: That doesn't answer my question. You stated that new players would want to know why their Uniques weren't as values as Vintages. [[Quality]] explains that, not these lists. Citing a recent SPUF thread in the immediate period is hardly a compelling arguement either, of course people are going to be curious just after an update, that doesn't mean there is a consistant demand. ~ '''[[User:Ath|Ath]]''' ([[User_talk:Ath|talk]]) 00:36, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :::::::::And naturally the next question will be which weapons can be found in vintage quality is it not? That SPUF thread is relevant because clearly they understood the patch notes but had no clue which weapons were made vintage (myself included). What's wrong with giving people that information? '''<span style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:83%;">—[[File:User Moussekateer signature sprite.png|31px|link=User:Moussekateer]][[User:Moussekateer|<span style="color:black">Moussekateer</span>]]·[[User talk:Moussekateer|<span style="color:black;font-size:82%;">talk</span>]]</span>''' 00:41, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :::::::::: With the example provided the value of such a list is temporal, outside of the immediate post-release timeframe, such lists have little value. It comes down to it being "wait what has happened now?" vs "What is now Vintage", and I'm certain for the majority case the former is true. ~ '''[[User:Ath|Ath]]''' ([[User_talk:Ath|talk]]) 01:21, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | ::{{c|Oppose}} This article has a different goal from the [[Quality]] page. Creating a new article is better than stuffing old ones with unnecessary information. {{n}} [[File:Duel_RED.png|link=User:EpicEric|20px|sub]] [[User:EpicEric|<span style="color:#5885A2;font-size:23px;font-family:
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| − | 'TF2 Professor';text-shadow:#e3e3e3 1px 1px 0px;"><b>Epic</b></span>]] [[User:EpicEric|<span style="color:#B8383B;font-size:23px;font-family:
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| − | 'TF2 Professor';text-shadow:#e3e3e3 1px 1px 0px;"><b>Eric</b></span>]]{{mod}} [[File:Duel_BLU.png|link=User:EpicEric|20px|sub]]<span style="font-size:10px"> ([[User talk:EpicEric|T]] | [[Special:Contributions/EpicEric|C]])</span> 18:11, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :{{c|Oppose}} I like the idea of keeping articles very focused, and having a separate article for discussing item quality and listing every possible prefix for an item is a good idea. -- [[User:Henry Spencer|Henry Spencer]] [[File:Backpack_Gentleman's_Gatsby.png|36px|link=User_talk:Henry Spencer]] 01:21, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :{{c|Support}} You might as well do it. [[User:Pierow|Pierow]] 23:09, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
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| − | {{discussion header|bottom}}
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| − | == Normal quality ==
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| − | [[Template:Normal quality table]] was deleted and removed from here for being "pointless and redundant". This really is flawed. A list of normal items is most definitely not pointless and is certainly not redundant. A list of stock weapons is basic documentation, it serves interest to the reader. Maybe not to people who have played the game for a while, but the wiki is not made to serve the interests of veteran players ''only'' – it's an important resource for new players too. A list of normal items is also most definitely not redundant. Where else on the wiki can you point to a list of stock weapons, honestly? There are lists and navs for weapons, weapons by class, and each stock weapon has the 'normal' quality in the infobox, but seriously, there is no proper list anywhere.
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| − | If there are no actual, real arguments for deleting a list of normal weapons I'll be promptly undeleting it and restoring it to this page. [[user:seb26|<small style="background:#f9f9f9;border:1px solid #EA6B1C;padding:0em 0.5em;color:#000;-webkit-box-shadow:2px 1px 1px #FBAA78;">'''seb26'''</small>]] 06:02, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :Brings up a point about all our list type things: this is something that SMW was made for. Even just adding them to a category instead of making list pages would be better, because the info is there if people need it. I dunno. -- [[User:Pilk|Pilk]] <sub>([[User talk:Pilk|talk]])</sub> 06:33, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
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| − | ::Yeah I suppose, I just think that deleting this kind of list is stupid, and even worse for the reason ''any item can be made any quality at any time by Valve so nyerrr''. Just doesn't make sense to think that anyone would find a list of normal weapons to be 'useless'. [[user:seb26|<small style="background:#f9f9f9;border:1px solid #EA6B1C;padding:0em 0.5em;color:#000;-webkit-box-shadow:2px 1px 1px #FBAA78;">'''seb26'''</small>]] 06:37, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :::Why would any user want such a list? What use does it serve? When is a user going to wonder what Normal quality items are available to them? They're not. Should we also make a list of what items shoot bullets? A list of items that can kill? It has no value.
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| − | :::A user may find a Vintage/Unusual list useful because they want to know if that item is available or not for collection/trading purposes. So no Seb, it is useless. ~ '''[[User:Ath|Ath]]''' ([[User_talk:Ath|talk]]) 15:01, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
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| − | ::::Not that it matters anymore (since the table was quickly deleted) but the information is valid and useful to some...why delete it? Just because you don't see the point doesn't mean someone else will. The wiki is written for a general audience, which includes all kinds of people. Clearly your argument is hyperbole. Quality that can assigned to weapons is relevant information and not useless (like a list of items that shoot bullets would be). --[[User:AGlassOfMilk|AGlassOfMilk]] 18:29, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :::::"To some", who is "some"? Seems if any arguement here is hyperbole it is your own. For what reason would someone be seeking this information? Why would they need it? How would the wiki convey this information in a superior manner? These lists were established on the observation of demand for the knowledge of what new items were vintage, or what hats could be unboxed as unusuals. There is not one single Normal item in existance that is owned by an average player, nor are they obtainable. ~ '''[[User:Ath|Ath]]''' ([[User_talk:Ath|talk]]) 18:44, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :::::As I said before in the other talk page, I think it's useless, because it's obvious which items have the Normal quality and which items don't. {{n}}[[File:User_Ohyeahcrucz_Sig.png|20px|sub]] [[User:Ohyeahcrucz|<span style="text-shadow:blue 0px 0px 0px;font-size:13px;font-family: Tf2 Build"><font color="blue">Ohyeahcrucz]]</font></span> <span style="font-size:10px;font-weight:bold;font-family: helvetica"><font color="black"><nowiki>[</nowiki>[[User_talk:Ohyeahcrucz|T]]<nowiki>][</nowiki>[[Special:Contributions/Ohyeahcrucz|C]]<nowiki>]</nowiki></font></span> 18:47, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
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| − | ::::::Of course it's freaking obvious to you because you've played the game before, for at least a while. New players who haven't may be interested in, I don't know, finding out which weapons are ''stock''? Which weapons everyone has, obtainable or not? The first weapons in the game ever? Yes you're definitely right, no one ''ever'' would find this information useful. I thought someone would have a decent argument against this kind of list but it's the same stuff. A normal weapon list is maybe "useless" for veteran players but it serves some purpose for those who are not, so I'm undeleting this and re-adding it. Please don't remove it again. [[user:seb26|<small style="background:#f9f9f9;border:1px solid #EA6B1C;padding:0em 0.5em;color:#000;-webkit-box-shadow:2px 1px 1px #FBAA78;">'''seb26'''</small>]] 21:15, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :::::::As per IRC I'm going to forward this suggestion: To prevent semantic inaccuracies the "Normal list" will be split off and renamed to "Stock list" or something to that effect and become part of a seperate "Stock Weapons" article explaining what stock items are, what they do and maybe a blurb about their presence when the item server goes offline. There is no value to the user in knowing what items bear the Normal quality, there is however potential value in having a list of Stock weapons. ~ '''[[User:Ath|Ath]]''' ([[User_talk:Ath|talk]]) 22:28, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
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| − | ::::::::This page can be seen [[Stock_Weapons|here]]. ~ '''[[User:Ath|Ath]]''' ([[User_talk:Ath|talk]]) 22:42, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
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| − | == Villian's Veil and Professor's Peculiarity==
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| − | Could someone add the Villian's Veil to the list of possible unusuals? Someone found one.
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| − | Proof: http://www.tf2items.com/profiles/76561198024381539 (Page 6)
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| − | Also, should the Professor be listed as a possible unusual? Not a single one has been found. Any kind of confirmation from someone at Valve that it can be found as an unusual?
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| − | [[User:MaX MayheM|MaX MayheM]] 22:22, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
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