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| − | == Show Page as English ==
| + | {{Talk archive |
| − | Does anyone know how to do this? I created this page, but it's not showing up as an English language page.[[User:MEDUNN|MEDUNN]] 06:33, 13 August 2011 (PDT)
| + | | arc1name = Archive 1 |
| − | | + | | arc1link = Talk:Reskins/Archive 1 |
| − | :A bot updates that list, but it has done it now [[user:seb26|<small style="background:#f9f9f9;border:1px solid #0070FF;padding:0em 0.5em;color:#000;-webkit-box-shadow:2px 1px 1px #8BBEFF;">'''seb26'''</small>]] 15:20, 13 August 2011 (PDT)
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| − | == Category ==
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| − | This should really be a category rather than an article in its own right. In most cases, these aren't reskins, but alternate models. Maybe move it to Alternate Models? It just feels weird calling this article "reskin". --[[User:SilverHammer|SilverHammer]] 23:30, 16 August 2011 (PDT)
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| − | : Oh, it's already a category. Alright, I'mma just nominate this for deletion then. Opinions go here. --[[User:SilverHammer|SilverHammer]] 23:32, 16 August 2011 (PDT)
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| − | ::{{c|Oppose}} – page has more info than the category page and is more useful. As it provides this extra info it isn't a duplication or redundant. [[user:seb26|<small style="background:#f9f9f9;border:1px solid #0070FF;padding:0em 0.5em;color:#000;-webkit-box-shadow:2px 1px 1px #8BBEFF;">'''seb26'''</small>]] 23:50, 16 August 2011 (PDT)
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| − | :::{{c|Oppose}}Why delete this page instead of the incomplete catagory page?[[User:MEDUNN|MEDUNN]] 02:49, 17 August 2011 (PDT)
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| − | :::: Cause the only one that's actually a reskin is the Golden Wrench. --[[User:SilverHammer|SilverHammer]] 12:08, 17 August 2011 (PDT)
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| − | ::::: Um, I think you've got the definition of reskin wrong there. A reskin isn't a palate or colour swap. It means anything that has a visual, and possible sound, difference but has the same function. Everything on this list is a reskin. The original and holy macral are too really.[[User:MEDUNN|MEDUNN]] 14:09, 17 August 2011 (PDT)
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| − | ::{{c|Oppose}} - SilverHammer, I created the original category page (which has since been redirected to this page) because I felt that it only warranted a category and not a full article; however, MEDUNN took the work I did and improved upon it greatly with a table, item icons, and even additional notes about the reskinned items. I am convinced it should stay, as Valve will likely continue to release more reskinned items in future updates. [[User:ButteredToast|ButteredToast]] 10:14, 22 August 2011 (PDT)
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| − | :::{{c|info}} Just to note, by this definition of reskin the [[Shovel]], [[Fire Axe]], [[Bottle]], [[Fists]], [[Wrench]], [[Bonesaw]] and [[Kukri]] are all reskins of each other. '''<span style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:83%;">—[[File:User Moussekateer signature sprite.png|31px|link=User:Moussekateer]][[User:Moussekateer|<span style="color:black">Moussekateer</span>]]·[[User talk:Moussekateer|<span style="color:black;font-size:82%;">talk</span>]]</span>''' 10:46, 22 August 2011 (PDT)
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| − | ::::I think that calling the base weapons reskins of each other is about as useful as calling hats reskins of each other (save for the Polycount hats); after all, having a reskin requires some kind of prerequisite weapon, and all of these weapons are the first of their kind and were released at the same time. [[User:ButteredToast|ButteredToast]] 11:02, 22 August 2011 (PDT)
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| − | : {{c|Support}} Adding a pretty table to an article doesn't make it worth keeping. Suggest moving any non-table content to [[:Category:Reskins]] and leave the "Notes" section to their respective articles. Basically, this "article" is just a list, which is EXACTLY what a Category: page is. [[User:Coreycubed|coreycubed]] / [[User talk:Coreycubed|talk]] 10:55, 22 August 2011 (PDT)
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| − | == Holy Mackerel and The Original ==
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| − | Can we have a vote to decide whether or not these are reskins or not. I would say yes as they share the fuction of two other weapons with only visual differences. I know some people say that the original's position makes it better as it's easier to aim, but I would say that that is still just a visual and not a functional change.[[User:MEDUNN|MEDUNN]] 04:43, 21 August 2011 (PDT)
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| − | :I don't think that the Mackerel really counts as a reskin since it counts the number of hits that it makes in the killfeed notification, something no other weapon before it has done. As for the Original, I'm a little divided on the issue, but I think it counts as a reskin since it is functionally similar to the Rocket Launcher. [[User:ButteredToast|ButteredToast]] 10:14, 22 August 2011 (PDT)
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| − | ::The two weapons have different attributes attached, so from that perspective they are unique weapons. From a gameplay perspective the Holy Mackerel makes it easier to see when a team mate is being smacked about by a Scout, and the Original fires from a different position. If it fired from the bottom left of the screen would it still be considered equal to the rocket launcher? '''<span style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:83%;">—[[File:User Moussekateer signature sprite.png|31px|link=User:Moussekateer]][[User:Moussekateer|<span style="color:black">Moussekateer</span>]]·[[User talk:Moussekateer|<span style="color:black;font-size:82%;">talk</span>]]</span>''' 10:19, 22 August 2011 (PDT)
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| − | :::The Holy Mackerel is not a reskin, since it also is part of a set that provides a bonus. That same set using the Bat instead wouldn't function, so therefore it has a mechanical property that the Bat does not, even discounting the kill feed notifications. Similarly, the Original fires from a different position on the screen, changing how a Soldier can use cover. This is also a different mechanical property, and as such is not a reskin but functionally a different weapon. ==[[User:FaxCelestis|Fax Celestis]] <sub>[[User_talk:FaxCelestis|talk]]</sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/FaxCelestis|contrib]]</small><sup>[http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/ home]</sup>
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| − | ::::What about the Saxxy and G. Wrench though? They have a unique attribute. [[User:Balladofwindfishes|Balladofwindfishes]] 10:30, 22 August 2011 (PDT)
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| − | :::::I never included the Golden Wrench or Saxxy because reskins before, though the Saxxy does technically count as a reskin of the Golden Wrench since it duplicates the functionality of the Golden Wrench. [[User:ButteredToast|ButteredToast]] 10:39, 22 August 2011 (PDT)
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| − | :::::Their unique attribute doesn't have any mechanical effect on gameplay. Over in [http://giantitp.com/forums/ tabletop gaming land], we call this a "fluff vs. crunch" disparity. Fluff/flavor are things that have no actual effect on the mechanics of gameplay: describing how one wizard casts a spell differently than another wizard still results in the same spell with the same mechanical, "crunch" effects.
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| − | :::::Similarly, a golden wrench vs. an iron wrench all inflict the same damage, have the same critical hit rate, and construct the same buildings: the only difference is the texture map and the on-kill attribute of the golden wrench. If a statue'd enemy blocked enemy fire, remained on the map as a new obstacle, or otherwise altered how the game was played in more than a visible matter, then it would indeed be a new weapon. The saxxy is much the same: it possesses the same attributes as the base melee weapon of whatever class is holding it. The only differences arise in how it is wielded and what happens on-kill, neither of which have any ''mechanical'' effect on gameplay. As such, it is a 'fluff' difference, rather than the more mechanical difference between, say, a Reserve Shooter and a Shotgun. ==[[User:FaxCelestis|Fax Celestis]] <sub>[[User_talk:FaxCelestis|talk]]</sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/FaxCelestis|contrib]]</small><sup>[http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/ home]</sup> 12:27, 22 August 2011 (PDT)
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| − | :::::: That's all well and good, but compared to other "reskins" we have on the page (like the Maul), it's different. It's a unique, coded attribute. [[User:Balladofwindfishes|Balladofwindfishes]] 14:11, 22 August 2011 (PDT)
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| − | ::::::: ...with no functional impact upon the game. The Golden Wrench page could be merged with the regular Wrench page and condensed to a singular paragraph, whereas the Frontier Justice is different enough from the regular Shotgun that it warrants an entire page. The Maul has a different kill icon: does that make it different enough from the Homewrecker to warrant calling it a 'unique weapon'? From your statements above, no. And if the Maul is not unique enough to be considered a reskin, neither is the Golden Wrench: it has the same mechanical effects in game. The ''only'' difference is the ''cosmetic'' result it has on opponents it kills. ==[[User:FaxCelestis|Fax Celestis]] <sub>[[User_talk:FaxCelestis|talk]]</sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/FaxCelestis|contrib]]</small><sup>[http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/ home]</sup> 16:30, 22 August 2011 (PDT)
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| − | :::::::: I think this shows that noone here can accurately define what a reskin is. '''<span style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:83%;">—[[File:User Moussekateer signature sprite.png|31px|link=User:Moussekateer]][[User:Moussekateer|<span style="color:black">Moussekateer</span>]]·[[User talk:Moussekateer|<span style="color:black;font-size:82%;">talk</span>]]</span>''' 16:35, 22 August 2011 (PDT)
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| − | == Trivia ==
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| − | *''Some hats were reskins of other hats before being added officially to the game.''
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| − | This line is debatable in my opinion. The easy way to add hats into the game unofficially is to overwrite the models of other hats. While this can be construed as 'reskinning', it is not usually the authors intention to reimagine the hat being overwritten. You can overwrite any hat. By this definition every class hat is a reskin of every other class hat (apart from the polycount hats) since they are functionally identical. '''<span style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:83%;">—[[File:User Moussekateer signature sprite.png|31px|link=User:Moussekateer]][[User:Moussekateer|<span style="color:black">Moussekateer</span>]]·[[User talk:Moussekateer|<span style="color:black;font-size:82%;">talk</span>]]</span>''' 10:27, 22 August 2011 (PDT)
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| − | :I have to agree with Mousekateer on this one; short of the Polycount hats which provided a bonus when the entire set is equipped, changing the models of the hats doesn't really count as reskinning. [[User:ButteredToast|ButteredToast]] 10:34, 22 August 2011 (PDT)
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| − | == Should we add a date added column? ==
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| − | Should we add a "date added" column?
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| − | == Does this need a page? ==
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| − | Since it seems we can't decide what a reskin actually <i>is</i>, is it a weapon that merely shares stats (Maul, Fishcake), weapons that have a unique cosmetic effect, but are otherwise identical (Saxxy, Mackarel, Golden Wrench), weapon that share a model (Rocket Jumper), hats that are the same model with unique texture (Ellis' Cap, Athletic Supporter), items with the same UV map (Tomislav, Cappos caper), and so on. ALL of those could be considered a "reskin." Plus, you have things like the Three Rune Blade, which has different voice lines than the Boston Basher... is it still a reskin? And honestly, what purpose does this page serve? A category (which we already had) could serve the same purpose, and be a lot simpler. This just seems like a needless list of items with no real set theme or purpose. [[User:Balladofwindfishes|Balladofwindfishes]] 16:44, 22 August 2011 (PDT)
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| − | :I think it's fine to be honest, the Wiki is here to give useful information about the game, and this table is much more useful than a category, especially for new users who will be the ones wanting to look at it anyway. And I think the definition of a reskin would be a weapon that has identical stats to another. Extra/different voice lines aren't particularly important. '''» [[User:Cooper Kid|<span style="color:red">Coo</span><span style ="color:gray">per</span><span style ="color:blue"> Kid</span>]]''' <small>([[User_talk:Cooper Kid|blether]]'''·'''[[Special:Contributions/Cooper Kid|contreebs]])</small> 18:58, 22 August 2011 (PDT)
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| − | :Yes what's actually defined as a 'reskin' is currently unclear, but the list does serve a purpose. It is an informative list of weapons that function the same as others, but their outer appearance differs. Simply dumping this and taking up a category means there's less information like which weapons are reskins of what (which can't easily be determined by looking at [[:Category:Reskins]]). Yes there are a heap of subtypes and special cases and other instances where "reskin" is technically incorrect, but that does not mean we should just stop trying to cover it because it's too hard. Why not split this page into sections? [[user:seb26|<small style="background:#f9f9f9;border:1px solid #0070FF;padding:0em 0.5em;color:#000;-webkit-box-shadow:2px 1px 1px #8BBEFF;">'''seb26'''</small>]] 00:09, 23 August 2011 (PDT)
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| − | == New importance = Greater need for definition ==
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| − | This is my definition of a reskin.
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| − | For a weapon to be a reskin of another, they must both
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| − | :- Be used by the same character (or at least one of the same character if Pain Train etc. gets a clone)
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| − | :- Be in the same loadout slot
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| − | :- Have the same damage output in terms of damage/time unit, damage/individual hit, damage/m^2 (different spreads of shotgun for example) and damage output for different distances
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| − | :- Have the same on-user effects
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| − | :- Have the same hitbox size(s) and position (original has different hitbox positions initially to the rocket launcher)
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| − | :- Cause the same amount of damage to the user
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| − | :- Require the same play style for both weapons
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| − | :- Have the same taunt effect (amputator is not a clone of bonesaw). Animation for the taunt may be different however.
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| − | :- Have the same clip size
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| − | tl;dr: It does the same thing to both the user and any recipient, and goes about it in exactly the same way
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| − | Factors that do NOT change anything
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| − | :- The texture or model (rocket jumper =/= rocket launcher)
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| − | :- The UV mapping
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| − | :- The effects on the dead body after death (Saxxy = Vanilla melee)
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| − | :- The associated sound files (Frying pan = Shovel)
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| − | Does anyone have anything else to add or remove? If not, it should clear up a lot of things on this page. [[User:DVDV|DVDV]] 00:57, 23 August 2011 (PDT)
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| − | :Well said. '''» [[User:Cooper Kid|<span style="color:red">Coo</span><span style ="color:gray">per</span><span style ="color:blue"> Kid</span>]]''' <small>([[User_talk:Cooper Kid|blether]]'''·'''[[Special:Contributions/Cooper Kid|contreebs]])</small> 04:31, 23 August 2011 (PDT)
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