User talk:MastahDizzy

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| s | GrampaSwood (talk) (contribs) 12:45, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Your weapon rebalances

Hey! I took a look through your rebalances, and whilst most of them are PERFECT, your buff of the Beggar's Bazooka makes it essentially a direct upgrade to stock (I say this as a Beggar's Bazooka main). For one, the projectile deviation makes it so the Beggar's can't deal with Sentries at all beyond close range, so removing it makes it so the Beggar's becomes better than the goddamn DIRECT HIT for sentry busting. Additionally, the Projectile Deviation helps to exacerbate the explosion radius penalty, as even if you have an explosion radius penalty, that doesn't really matter if its at the person's feet regardless. Finally, those 3 rockets can EASILY take down a Heavy, and allowing this weapon to do so from even mid-range is insane. Finally, since the firing speed of the Beggar's if you just spammed M1 is comparable to stock, and due to you having essentially an infinite amount of rockets due to how the clip draws from the reserve instead of having a clip that you reload into, you have a significant advantage against other Soldiers even with the regular Beggar's. By removing the Projectile Deviation, you remove any sort of counter play the enemy Soldier may have had due to the Projectile Deviation, such as rocket jumping in the air to remove any sort of splash damage you could have benefitted from. The projectile deviation is such an integral part to the weapon that removing it makes it undeniably the best rocket launcher to use, period. It's already good enough with the projectile deviation. The movement and raw damage it has makes it a worthy sidegrade to stock, but removing the rocket deviation makes it an upgrade. Something that I'd suggest as an alternative to your buff would be to instead reduce the projectile deviation, rather than remove it altogether. Perhaps 2 degrees would suffice, making the launcher more accurate whilst keeping its upsides in check.

Oh dear, I accidentally skimmed over the Backup. +40 health is honestly way too strong, oh god. Now you receive 120 health from health packs, and can survive 2 headshots with overheal, which is further exacerbated by the buff when it is activated. My god, this would almost certainly be banned in all competitive formats. The Backup was strong enough before, I feel like a NERF was needed rather than a buff.

Ok, the Phlogistinator. I see what you were attempting, but the way you did it just made the Phlog far too stong. 4 airblasts are still airblasts, and can still EASILY deny Ubers and Projectiles. I believe a better rebalance would be to make the Phlog have an airblast that only affects players. This gives it the ability to still deny Ubers, albeit with a heavily increased cost, but it would still be competitively viable. This also keeps the main weakness of the Phlog of being unable to deal with projectiles, keeping Demomen and Soldiers as strong counters to Phlog Pyros. I also really like the change of making it so only damage with the Phlog increases the meter, which would honestly be a well over due change.

Ok, Ali Baba's Wee Booties. I like it, but becoming impervious to airblast just REMOVES Demoknight's main counter. Remove this one stat, and it'd be perfect. I understand that you did think that Pyro has other options to take down a Demoknight, but he truly can't do much when a Demoknight is charging at them, and one of the main reasons why fire damage in particular is so heavily resisted on Demoknight's shields is because of how oppressive Pyro can be, which is fine because Demoknight absolutely needs a counter.

With the Minigun overall rebalance, I feel like just allowing a Heavy to suddenly switch to a shotgun like the Panic Attack or hell, even the new Reserve Shooter whilst he's shooting at you would make combat with him feel unfair. Instead, make Heavy still have to unrev his Minigun, but make it faster.

Ok, Medic melees. 20% is still way too much. 15% would be far more fitting, and the Ubersaw should only gain 20%, with the Solemn Vow receiving 10%. Uber in general is incredibly power, and a mere advantage of 15% is still amazing. Also, Spy Backstabs. The reason they make sound is so that the enemy doesn't get demolished by a single Spy because they can't have possibly told there was a Spy behind them, what with the chaos of TF2. It is, frankly, a questionable and just buffs Spy by removing a main downside of his, the fact that his Backstabs alert the enemy. Besides, it is a melee, and melees make the enemy scream in pain once they die.

Finally, the Pain Train in your version of it is still useless at defending objectives. Perhaps make it a passive ability of the Pain Train to revert capture progress, or force the cart to be pushed back once you stand on it for 3 - 5 seconds?

Overall, you've made great rebalances, but these are just my major gripes that make a weapon or class too strong. I hope you take this feedback to heart, I really like your rebalances and believe they'd be great for the game as a whole. Best part is, they keep the identities of the weapons (generally)! Sorry I rambled, haha. Payn (talk) 03:35, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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Hey!

I had noticed the feedback you brought on my user page, and I wanted to say that I first of all really appreciate that you took the time to check some of these ideas I had been puttin' out there as it was clear that your feedback came from experience, and that your informed thoughts in regards to the weapons I may have had admittedly missed the mark with (Sorry!) does genuinely help for making this list just a bit closer to, well, I wouldn't call it "perfection" (lmao) but just more palatable compared to what the base game currently offers so far!

Without further ado, I will give you my honest feedback for all the weapons you've examined, and see if I can go with something better instead! After all, I may be cookin', but sometimes, failure is the key to proper experimentation!

• Beggar's Bazooka

To be fair, I totally agree with all of your feedback regarding how the removal of rocket spread could effectively make the dumpster chaser too strong for its own good, and I will absolutely recognise that it was my bad for underestimating how tap firing could potentially result in a playstyle that feels very UNGA (rockets go brrrr).

However, I had also noticed that when most people on both ends of the Bazooka's argument wanted to find a buff for this weapon, the removal of said spread mechanic was an obvious step forward to make the weapon consistent since the original developers designed TF2 to be a game that rewards calculated decisions both from the player's ability to use their arsenal to its highest potential and make informed decisions relating to themselves, their allies and their enemies, which luck-based mechanics in general do seem to clash against that fundamental principle...

But!... That honestly makes me think that a Bazooka could be fair and balanced even without the factor of luck to make it inconsistent for as long as a proportional debuff could be added to replace that stat, so, knowing the fact that you seem to be very knowledgeable regarding this firearm, would you think there's a way to make the Beggar's balanced while removing its RNG?

I had thought about reducing its reload speed, but then I thought that this would noticeably gimp its rollout potential, which wouldn't change much for the average player, but surely this would be a very frustrating nerf to have for a person that mastered this rocket launcher as its ability to approach would become less impressive as a result, thus clashing with one of the hidden rules of my chart, which was to make weapons feel better in general (while remaining balanced when compared to their stock variants of course!).

So far, I decided to add lower splash radius and lower ammo economy as these nerfs seemed reasonable without turning the weapon into a stat dumpster (no pun intended), so if you jive with that, I'll keep it, but if you got an idea that you would find to be more fitting, let me know cause while I do lab this game thoroughly, and the Bazooka always appeared to be ripe for unique techniques to do with, I admittedly still know less about the Bazooka than you do!

• Battalion's Backup

Totally fair. Actually, I think I had put that seemingly busted change because there's so many powerful secondaries in the Soldier's kit already... Anyway, I reversed it cause like, yeah, shit just works once you got meter.

• Phlogistinator

Now, that is an interesting one 'cause the idea of an airblast that wouldn't work against projectiles doesn't seem like much of a deep cut, but Phlog is one of those weapons where it will strive off of bad players when you gotta deal with them, but once your competition actually start to learn the matchup, it just ain't it, and given the importance that Soldiers and Demos have for the overall metagame, making an airblast that's gimped by THAT MUCH just feels as if the weapon wouldn't really improve all that much compared to its core design, and debatably worse since meter is locked to primary damage now.

Also, it may not seem all that perfectly obvious, but dealing "primary damage" to fill the meter was also meant to infer that you had to do primary fire, which airblasted projectiles technically are bound to your secondary attack, and as such does not qualify for the meter requirement, so you reflecting a crocket to get more than half of your meter is just not possible. This would give more of a reason to give the Phlog an airblast that's mechanically consistent as any flamethrower that toyed with the way the mechanic functioned on a basic level usually got to be both unpopular picks, and generally underpowered when compared to the Stock.

On the other side, I reflected upon the amount of health you would need to fill the meter, and damn, 300HP doesn't really seem like much at all, so I increased the value to 500HP instead so that its perks become genuinely more difficult to get, and to further reduce confusion, I changed the "primary damage" requirement to be specifically primary fire, just in case!

Again, if you have additional feedback, let me know!

• Ali Baba's Wee Booties

The imperviousness to airblasts was actually a leftover from when the Booties still replace the primary slot instead of being a part of a dedicated slot that did not replace the primary, so in that context, it made sense to give that stat since Pyro could literally nullify your existence with little to no effort (source: I play Pyro a lot and damn does that shit feel cheap for Demoknights).

However, since it is now a part of its dedicated slot, I would totally agree that this stat just ain't necessary anymore, so away it goes!

• Minigun Cancelling

Fair. Guess Heavy bias kicked in a for a bit, which ain't good when you wanna make a balance document lol. I replaced non-committal spinning with a universally slower spin-down time, since this seems like a fair middle ground between my initial idea and Valve's current take on the class.

• Medic's Saws

I would actually somewhat disagree there because on one side, the Ubersaw is a strong option for sure, and having bad players give free Uber to the pub-stomping Medic and Soldier combo may feel somewhat undeserved, but on the other side, you have to take into account that a Medic DOES not want to engage in melee combat unless they're either absolutely forced to, or they instead have pretty much guaranteed odds of winning the interaction they want to engage with, which usually happens because an enemy overextended or beefed their ability to pick the Medic (in other words, the enemy pulling an Ash Ketchum instead of the Medic being souped up for battle).

When you're the most targeted class in the entire game (and the sole dedicated healer too!), anything that you do that does not pertain to healing or meter building is essentially time lost for you and your team, and since no respectable Medic wants to be a detriment to their team, it falls into sense that the risk/reward dynamic that comes with the current Ubersaw is actually more fair than what someone would think, given all these factors I mentioned in simplified form there.

So really, the conclusion I realistically gotten, and that I could gather when I had seen data from people that main Medic at varying levels of play is not that the Ubersaw should be made substantially worse, but rather that other melees should be more up to par with it, so reducing the normalised Uber-on-hit values to 15% just wouldn't be warranted without nerfing the Ubersaw ability to gain meter itself, which again, as I had explained above, is a strong attribute, but not a game-breaking one, nor a consistent trait since melees as a weapon archetype usually tend to be kinda bad on their own when used against someone that has a gun (source: I'm double season finalist in NHBL, Quarter-Finalist in GiO!, which were both melee-centric tournaments. I also has a solid Demoknight phase on Uncletopia around 2022, though that experience is more casual-ish than competitive, though still worth mentioning here).

• Backstab Scream

Aye, fair enough. I felt like the combination of the hit noise with the killfeed by itself would give a proper indicator already, but I can also see how newcomers and veterans alike would still not react with those informations, so I reverted my change about stabbed victims not making noise.

• Pain Train

Yoooooo like, okay, I can totally see where you're comin' from, but nah man. This would be way too much!

The Pain Train is really designed to specifically capture unclaimed objectives (though it would be weird to say it like that, so I just said it was an objective-based melee instead), and having it be able to not only fill its base purpose, and then easily reverse control points that would almost be captured by the enemy team (which honestly would have been your team's fault if you almost dropped it), and basically nullify any Payload push by simply existing just sounds way too good given its relative flaws. Like, "Highlander Banlist" levels of being good.

Besides, adding more attributes like that would potentially force me to either turn the Pain Train stats into either a biggie chart, or a description that will have to deliberately make its exact strengths ambiguous, which are both not so good for accessibility.

Props where I can find it though, I guess it could be an interesting idea to create a sort of inverse Pain Train that can find utility in defending objectives instead of capturing them, but making that idea balanced still would be quite the undertaking if you're askin' me! (Could be worth a shot though!)

• Conclusion (Thanks!)

As you can see, I tried my best to adjust some of these ideas you had brought upon the table into my chart, though you will have noticed that not all these made the cut for reasons that I hope will seem reasonable to you, but regardless of it all, your feedback is very appreciated as I try to make this list just right for players of all backgrounds and skill levels! So thanks for your time and help, and peace to you!

MastahDizzy (talk) 06:15, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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Aye, took a look through your feedback to my feedback! Yeah, I agree with the Medic Saws bit, I'm surprised I missed the mark with that, considering I used to main Medic, but yea. Medic generally doesn't want to get into melee range, so letting a Medic get some free uber with any of his saws is perfectly fine, considering how messed up in the head you have to be to always go for saws as a Medic, so I completely agree with you on that front. I do feel like giving the Phlog airblast is still a bit strange, but I do have a better idea. Perhaps, the Phlog would have a meter for airblast? A seperate one from the MMMMPH meter. What I propose is that the Phlog gets 2 or 4 airblasts that can do the same thing as the normal airblast, but when you use up an airblast from that meter, you must wait 5 - 10 seconds for it to recharge. This can add an extra layer of complexity to the Phlog, as now it is just as capable as the other Flamethrowers, however it completely removes the spammability of airblast. This forces the pyro in question to be smart with their airblasts, and carefully time them and space them out so that they aren't left completely defenseless. I feel like this could be an interesting idea, and I'd love to hear your feedback on this! With the Pain Train, I desperately want this thing to be useful at all times, on Offense and Defense. I want to keep the reverting captures thing, but I agree it'd be way too strong. I feel like having a weapon that is the inverse to the Pain Train would be an interesting idea, and my stupid brain forgot that usually when a point is captured, it can't be taken, so allowing a weapon to say "fuck that" to it anyway would be way too strong. I say this, the weapon should take like, 5 - 7 seconds of standing on a point that isn't fully captured by the enemy team to start being reverted, and 10 seconds of standing on the payload to force it back. This allows the defending Soldier or Demoman to be able to revert captures still, while still having to really commit to it. Some downsides could be a max health reduction, damage vulnerability, or even an inability to capture points yourself (KOTH, CP, A/D). Overall, I like the current state of your current rebalances, though I will let you know if there can be further improvements. Thanks for listening! Payn (talk) 22:43, 16 October 2023 (UTC)