Talk:Soldier

Health and Speed

May I change the speed part to match the format of the health (main slash tooltip format)? --Zippy 09:14, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

The slash is meant to indicate a separation between normal and overhealed. It doesn't make sense for it to separate normal speed and speed from some other condition, and it would be incosistent with the other class articles. -- Pilk _(talk) 09:16, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I thought the slash format was just "original / different from original due to a specific condition", regardless if it has to do with health. You downright lost me on your second sentence. It wouldn't be inconsistent if the other class' pages underwent the same change. I see absolutely no difference between having the slashes and tooltips on the health and on the running speeds. Both right-of-slash numbers would indicate a change or different condition. --Zippy 13:25, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Legionaire's Lid

I was going through the game files earlier to help with translating a couple of names into Dutch when I encountered this:
"[english]TF_SoldierRomanHelmet" "Legionaire's Lid"
"[english]TF_SoldierRomanHelmet_Desc" "An antique from the late Imperial Gallic period."
When I searched on google, I found a sole mention in the Steam forums ([1]), but other then that, no mention at all. Should we add anything about this, if not in the Soldier page, in the scrapped items article? Or do we leave it untouched for the time being? I'm sorry if this has been mentioned before, but I couldn't find anything else about this on here or the web for that matter. -- Hefaistus 19:11, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Hm, I don't know the usual way of dealing with these unconfirmed, vague references to items, which I'd say obviously takes preference. I don't really think we have enough information to actually start an article, but that might just be me. ~ lhavelund ^{(talk ▪ contrib)} 19:13, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Contribute item. I do recall seeing it on FPSB. Too bad it's not fully implemented. -- Vi3trice _(talk) 19:13, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

trivia

where are all trivia? are they all gone? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jem (talk) • contribs) 21:59, 6 November 2010

http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/index.php?title=Soldier&action=history --CruelCow 21:03, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I found out last night through bodygroups that parts of the soldier's model include the Gentle Mann's medal and a rocket in his left hand. Is this trivia worthy? I found it interesting. Big G 16:51, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

New taunt kill icon

Is there any way to add the Holy Hand Grenade taunt kill icon into the Equalizer info box? GeminiViRiS Talk Contribs 21:49, 17 January 2011 (UTC)\ Probably not necessary. Pierow 05:38, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Speaking of Kill Icons, how come some are missing? Geno 12:17, 2 July 2011 (PDT)

Cow Mangler 5000

With last nights patch does it still have the increased base damage on the charged shot?

Cryllic 08:37, 23 July 2011 (PDT)

I'm not sure. I did notice, however, that I was unable to one hit kill 150 HP classes with it like I used to, so maybe it did lower. Balladofwindfishes 08:41, 23 July 2011 (PDT)

Soldier using alias?

When and where was this announced that this is a false name?MEDUNN 12:02, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

It actually never was as far as I remember. I guess we just kind of assumed. Balladofwindfishes 12:04, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

A John Doe is a name for a person who wishes to remain anonymous, is unknown or can be used as a generic term. The female equivalent is Jane Doe. Template:W. —Moussekateer·talk 12:07, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Why did you assume that? I mean he refers to himself as that, the administrator in the War comic and the Replay comic calls him Doe. It looks just the same as the Demoman, so why assume the Soldier is using a false name and not the Demoman? Also isn't it speculation that its false, and doesn't that make it against wiki rules to write that?MEDUNN 12:08, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Yes, it does seem like speculation on our part. I guess nobody has really thought about it until now. Balladofwindfishes 12:09, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

It's a joke name, but not a false name. I think this false name idea is speculation at best.MEDUNN 12:10, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Gah! you answer so quick, I'm talking several questions before!MEDUNN 12:11, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

I think it's quite clearly not his real name. It goes with his character of just another generic soldier, another nameless face; ie a John Doe. —Moussekateer·talk 12:16, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

But it's still an assumption. We're never told it's not his real name. Balladofwindfishes 12:22, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Well, there are around 11,000 people in America with the last name Doe, so it's not out of the question that it's his real surname. The idea of his first name being Jane is probably what makes people think it's a fake name. » Cooper Kid (Blether · Contreebs) 12:25, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

I don't think it's clear at all and I want to know what evidence you have to prove your theory is more than speculation. Plenty of characters in comic fiction have been called thing like John Doe and the joke being everyone assumes its a false name, or film dirctors called Allan Smithie, and that turns out to be their real name. As far as I can see in tf2 no character ever says anything that hints the name is false, when the administrator talks to him she says Mr Doe not Mr "Doe" or any other way of showing a name is false. I know where the name comes from but as far as I can see the joke is the reveal that the hitherto unknown Soldier's real name is the same name given to unknown soldiers, and then gave him a female version just to add extra humour. But again speculation isn't allowed on the wiki, what proof is there in tf2 from the blog, game or comics that the name is false?MEDUNN 12:26, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

John Wayne's first name was Marion and, believe it or not, there are American men named Jane, Jill and Sarah.MEDUNN 12:28, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

But that's beside the point, as far as I can see Valve has named the character Jane Doe, what tf2 evidence is there otherwise?MEDUNN 12:30, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

A joke explained is a joke ruined, and this is quite a clear joke. Do you want Valve to explain every joke to you or do you really expect Valve to come out with a statement and say it's not his real name? No doubt there are people called John Doe and Jane Doe but that changes nothing. The name is overwhelmingly associated with anonymous, incognito people or those without a name. —Moussekateer·talk 12:32, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Speculation and assumtion, no different to saying the Sniper is called Rick because of Ritzy Ricks hair fixture, or the Scout is not really from Boston this is a lie he told, his accent proves it.MEDUNN 12:35, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Ah, now explain why the Sniper's name isn't Ritzy Rick by your logic? (Before the replay comic) —Moussekateer·talk 12:37, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Uhh, I can't. That was my point. You have no more evidence that Jane Doe is a false name than any other piece of fan-fcition or fan-theories (How did you not get that I was making up silly but vaguely credible theories to show level of proof required?)MEDUNN 12:42, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

It is just the kind of thing Valve would do, isn't it, giving the Soldier a female name. I say we go ahead and change the article to make it his real name instead of an alias, unless it does say that anywhere in the comics. » Cooper Kid (Blether · Contreebs) 12:36, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Yes I agree to change it. There's no proof it's an alias. Balladofwindfishes 12:40, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Thirded, but will gladly take it back if any Team Fortress proof arises.MEDUNN 12:43, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Disagree. You're taking a joke literally. Next we'll be changing the TF2 article to say it's actually a war-themed hat simulator because Valve have not issued a statement declaring it a joke. —Moussekateer·talk 12:47, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

The administrator called him Mr. Doe, and she isn't one for joking. What other time was Valve joking about a character's name? Balladofwindfishes 12:52, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Moussekateer we know that you think the joke is that he uses a false name. Whilst others think the joke is that the unknown soldiers real name is that of an unknown Soldier (and that the manly man has a girly name). But look at the wiki rules regarding the burdon of proof, you can't just say that your interpretation is canon. Without evidence you have no grounds to object upon under the wiki rules.MEDUNN 12:53, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Balladofwindfishes, she calls him that because that is the name he's given himself. If these references don't help I don't know what will. MEDUNN, we can't take everything literally. You're asking the impossible of me. If you really want to be that anal about facts I'm sure I could come up with a bunch of stuff that you would find impossible to disprove using a source but you would know was false from common sense. —Moussekateer·talk 13:01, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

If asking you to provide some proof for your theory is asking the impossible, then I can't see how it is anything other speculation.MEDUNN 13:07, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Simple, ask Robin. —GeminiViRiS Talk · Contribs 12:57, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

[unindent] If it's that big of a deal, leave it off of the article altogether, just like Pyro, Scout or Medic. coreycubed / talk 13:04, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

We have no way of knowing whether its an alias or not. For now, I'd say the best thing would be to acknowledge that. The "names" should be taken out of the opening summary, and left only in the bio. In the bio, we'll just write "Mister Jane Doe, possible alias". Simple. Also, jeezus, indent monsters. --SilverHammer 13:07, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

But 'possible allias' is also speculation.MEDUNN 13:08, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Asking Robin would probably yield a vague answer, but it would be worth a shot. Mouse, what we're arguing is not if something is false, we're arguing if something is true. Notably, the concept that the name Jane Doe is an alias. That statement is not backed by anything other than "common sense." Irregardless of other examples you could pose, the fact still remains there is no reason we should lead readers to believing his name given in official media is an alias. We didn't know his name before the comic (unlike the TF2 is hat simulator thing) and Valve hasn't given us any reason to doubt it's his real name other than the name "Jane Doe" meaning something outside of TF2. Balladofwindfishes 13:09, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

MEDUNN, you're asking me to prove Valve is making a joke. Balladofwindfishes, if you cannot accept the concept that John and Jane Doe are extremely well known aliases then I don't think I change your mind. I can understand non-westerners not getting the history behind the name, but for everyone else the joke should be obvious. —Moussekateer·talk 13:13, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

MEDUNN, it isn't speculation at all... It's "we don't know for sure, and we're acknowledging that fact." --SilverHammer 13:11, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Joke Name =/= Confirmed Alias Balladofwindfishes 13:14, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

I'm not asking you to prove Valve is making a joke, I'm asking you to prove that his name is an alias. I think it's a joke, but I think that the joke is that the soldiers real name is the name of a generic soldier, but also that the manly man has a girly name. But regardless of what either of us THINKS (as in subjective) the joke is, the fact is that Valve has repeatsly named the Soldier Jane Doe and has had several references to this. The name is never said ironicly or in "quotations" or given any other indicator that it's false. You have come up with the theory that it is a false name, that is fine for steamforums, but to post it here you need to have direct corroborating evidence from a Valve source.MEDUNN 13:20, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

I don't think either of you get the joke. --SilverHammer 13:22, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Look at this in context. Valve, a company well know for making clever and witty in-game jokes, create a character that calls himself Jane Doe, a well known alias for those who don't have a name for whatever reason. You do the math. I'm seriously beginning to wonder if you guys actually get the joke or not, no disrespect intended.. —Moussekateer·talk 13:28, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

How long do we typicially wait on these votes?MEDUNN 13:28, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

This is a wiki - it's not a vote, it's consensus. Chill. coreycubed / talk 13:29, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

There are only so many times I can say I think the joke is something different. There are only so many times I can ask you for proof to back up your theory. Look even if I agreed with you it still would only be a theory on level with any other piece of fanfiction we create in our heads.MEDUNN 13:32, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Jane Doe = obvious reference to the Plaintiff in Roe v. Wade. I have sources to back this up. Until someone can prove otherwise, I'm going to insist all references to Soldier include a link to pro-life or pro-choice legislation. :3 coreycubed / talk 13:33, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

okay, so how do we end this?MEDUNN 13:34, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

I know I'm not alone in my position, but you are being more vocal. The name is a clear joke and I am sorry you cannot see the joke, but I don't know how to convince you otherwise. —Moussekateer·talk 13:42, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Look we've had a discussion on whether the Soldier's name can be proved to an alias, and as far as I can see no decisive proof that it is has been given. So can we now move ahead and remove it and only add it again if and when proof emerges.MEDUNN 13:43, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

That is the joke, MEDUNN. --SilverHammer 13:44, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

You can convince me with PROOF. But this isn't about me and you, it's about whether this theory is based on evidence or on speculation. If it is not based on team fortress fact then it does not belong on the wiki.MEDUNN 13:45, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Look it doesn't matter who has the most supporters or who is the most vocal. I'll try to be clear;

We're not debating; Do you think the Soldier's name is an alias? We ARE debating; Is there PROOF that the Soldier's name is an alias? because if there is not it is against wiki rules no matter how many people agree or disagree.MEDUNN 13:53, 3 August 2011 (PDT) MEDUNN, you are being too literal. We have no way to know what Soldier's name really is. Please leave it be. --SilverHammer 14:05, 3 August 2011 (PDT) Okay, well we've been debating for quite a while now about whether this theory is backedup by evidence and so far none has come to light. I will now change the parts of the article that say "The Soldier, who goes by the alias Mister Jane Doe" to "The Soldier, referred to as Mister Jane Doe". This is a relativly open statement that people who like the idea of an alias can interpert in their way. This will be changed back once evidence has been found to support the theory. Moussekateer I'm sorry that this became a bit personal, but if you do find evidence I will happily undo this edit and admit that I don't understand jokes.MEDUNN 14:08, 3 August 2011 (PDT) SilverHammer we know in the same way we know in the same way that we know the Demoman is named Tavish Degroot; Valve told us. Theories that the name Valve has given is not real need to be backed up by proof.MEDUNN 14:11, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Okay, what has happened to this talk page? Why are all the sections run together like this.MEDUNN 14:12, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

This discussion has gone on for way too long. I'm sorry you don't understand the significance of the John/Jane Doe name and it's context here, but it is a joke. Nothing personal, but it does appear you don't get the joke and for this reason the article will continue to refer to Jane Doe as his alias until there is evidence shows otherwise. I'm going to use common sense here. —Moussekateer·talk 14:13, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Moussekateer you have no proof, you need proof to write your theory as fact. Do not add this again until until you have fact.MEDUNN 14:15, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Just because you call it proof doesn't make it so. To you, it's clear as day; others, not so clear. Anyways, if it must be changed at all, I could support the "open" version, except I'd phrase it as "known as Mister Jane Doe" rather than "referred to". I think it fits better. coreycubed / talk 14:16, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

I can support that: changed.MEDUNN 14:17, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Look edit wars are undignified to us all, let's not engage in them. Let's abide by the wiki rules that anything stated as fact must be backed up by a tf2 source or else is deleted as speculation. I've tried to meet you half way by pharsing in a way that all parties can interpret their way. But at the end of the day there is no evidence to back up the theory that the chacaters name is a false one.MEDUNN 14:25, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

You're the one undoing edits.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 14:26, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

You're trying to force an edit into the article, and multiple other editors are trying to remove it. Is there a question about consensus? I think you're the only one who feels this way. If you're looking for other editors to support your views, build consensus on the talk page, then make the edit. Right now, you have none and the rest of us are in agreement. coreycubed / talk 14:31, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

And I was trying to stop it before it started. That's why I spent 2 hours trying to see if the the theorys proponents had any valid evidence rather then just go ahead and edit out the speculation and even then tried to compromise with the phrasing.MEDUNN 14:31, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

It's not a theory, it's the way the page has been for quite some time now. Meanwhile, an admin comes along, locks the page and removes your edit... coreycubed / talk 14:33, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

The theory was against wiki rules, it was cut and dried Coreycubed. I debated for 2 hours and the theories proponents can up with no evidence to support it. You say by enforcing the rules I'm not building concesus. But the onus was on the theories proponents to build concensus for it's inclusion not the other way around. Even so, I tried everything I possibly could to make the pharsing as neutral as possible, but what CAN I do when the propent has no evidence but refuses to aknowledge that that makes their arguement invalid.MEDUNN 14:36, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Chill out please. This is just a matter of a name on a page. There is no evidence for it to be a joke, and there is no evidence for it to not be a joke either. The comic is ambiguous. So let the article reflect that ambiguity. That's it~ — Wind 14:41, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

 Kudos to Wind for that. » Cooper Kid (Blether · Contreebs) 15:29, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

The Original

When will this weapon be added? Id do it myself, but apparently the page is locked to only administrators. http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Original Dr. Blutengott 21:19, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Well they game was added, the entire thing is in the game files. It's just the item is currently unavailable. Also, you probably shouldn't made this topic on the Original's talk page...but thats just me. 21:29, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Actually i was talking about adding it to the weapons section on this page. I mean we know all the stats theres no reason not to. Dr. Blutengott 21:36, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Except that not being an available weapon means it shouldn't be on this page. There's a seperate place for unreleased content and Beta weapons which you can't use in the game yet. » Cooper Kid (Blether · Contreebs) 02:42, 4 August 2011 (PDT)

We've added promo items to class pages before they were regularly available before. We know the Original's stats and it's been added to the item schema, he is requesting that we add those known stats as an entry to the Weapons category of the page. He cannot do so since the article is currently protected (I assume due to the above debacle regarding "Mister Jane Doe"). -- Psychopath 03:03, 4 August 2011 (PDT)

Ah, right - I didn't realise it was one of the new Promotional items. » Cooper Kid (Blether · Contreebs) 07:05, 4 August 2011 (PDT)

New Speed/Health Format

Someone recently added this new health and speed section to the Soldier, Demoman, and Heavy pages. The place where the previous speeds were listed now has a link to this new table. I find this change unnecessary and inconsistent, because it was only added to the classes that have many speed/health variants, and if it were added to the other class's pages it would be a table with one entry, which is unnecessary. Also I think it looks really ugly IMHO. Discuss? Also should I add this to the other affected pages' talk pages? -Rocket Ship BBQ 11:29, 8 August 2011 (PDT)

I think it's neater for classes with several different speeds, but you're kind of right, it's unecessary for those with only the default speed. Though that's only the Scout, so the good outweighs the bad. I say keep it. » Cooper Kid (Blether · Contreebs) 15:40, 8 August 2011 (PDT)

Missing Gallery Pic

The gallery is missing the king of spades card from Poker Night that the Soldier is on. SS2R 11:02, 12 September 2011 (PDT)

Done. SS2R 12:14, 13 September 2011 (PDT)

Moving the Original

Well considering that the Original has the same stats as the stock Rocket Launcher, with the only difference being cosmetic, shouldn't it be merged with the stock RL like the Shovel/Pan/Sign/Saxxy are in the Melee section? — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jironobou (talk) • (contribs) 17:29, 4 November 2011

No, with the rockets being fired from the centre of the screen instead of the right-hand side there is a slight tactical difference, so they count as different weapons.
» Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 13:23, 4 November 2011 (PDT)

Actually they could (and should imo) be; The rightmost info column would be separate, but the damage columns would be merged. —Rocket Ship BBQ(•) 19:54, 4 November 2011 (PDT)

But the Black Box and Liberty Launcher also do the same amount of damage as the Rocket Launcher. Balladofwindfishes 19:56, 4 November 2011 (PDT)

Oh my gosh good point. Ahh, looks like only melees are merged...perhaps shouldn't merge these.—Rocket Ship BBQ(•) 19:57, 4 November 2011 (PDT)

Only same status and cosmetic weapon will merge. Black box and Liberty have different status (Black Box +15 hp on hit, Liberty +40% projectile speed) and Rocket launcher and Original have differrent cosmetic (Rocket launcher fires from right-hand side, Original fires from center). So no merge in this case. Hinaomi 20:41, 4 November 2011 (PDT)

But at the same time, the Flare Gun and Detonator have different secondary stats, and are still mergedJironobou 17:14, 7 November 2011 (PST).

I'll edit right now.Hinaomi 18:07, 7 November 2011 (PST)