Talk:Underworld

Original Discussion

Initial discussion for creating this page was started here. M I K A D O 282 🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃 🎃🎃 🎃🎃 (talk) (To Do) 19:04, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Content better contributed to the main articles

@BrazilianNut: I agreed that a broad topic article was needed and you did do a lot of writing, but it is a concern that much of what you placed in this page is redundant to what should be in the main articles for each feature. I know you are happy with what is there, but, I pains me to say, I think it is too much. I Disagree that so much detail is needed in the Broad Topic. On the upside, some of what you put here is good content for the main articles.

I sincerely hope my comments are received as positively as possible. I can see that you worked on being to be brief with several of the sections (Cauldron, Ghost Fort, Gravestone). Because the descriptions, details and mechanics should be completely covered in the main articles, what should be here should be as brief as possible; I personally prefer a translation switching table (see bottom).

• Gravestone: Please consider that the Witching Hour and Bumper Car Race section in the main article are stubs. My hope is that someone contributes to the sections in the main rather than being tempted to expand the paragraphs in this page.

• Much of you content in Purgatory and Hell for Brimstone could be better contributed to the main Brimstone page.

• Your Cauldron section is reasonably sized, for a textual summary, but second paragraph for Cauldron is much better contributed to the main Cauldron article in its own section.

• The Underworld Section for Bumper Cars should/will receive a Merge tag. Clearly the cut an paste of the Bumper Car spells here was unnecessary. It is unnecessary that the summary of the games have as much text the games in the main article. Where there is content that is in the Underworld sections that is not in the main, you should contribute it to the main article.

• The Cursed Cove section is bigger than the Dave Jones' Locker section in the main article, this should be the other way around. I don't see the benefit of describing the Location here.
  • "... appears as the bottom of the sea, with algae and corals dotting the landscape. Players will spawn in front of one of the two giant skulls, ..." belongs in Dave Jones' Locker of the main, but not here.
  • "Every minute or so in... This points out that timing is missing in the main article.

• Eyeaduct: I wouldn't have added more detail about the cosmetics of the Locations than is in the present main article. What is different about your Eyeaduct is that it goes into detail of the buffs, which you do not do for the other sections. I do not suggest that you do that necessarily, even if I really would like to see a comparison of buffs, paragraphs of text is not an effective way of doing that. I think it would be better for a broad topic page to have all the underworlds in a table, with columns for "Picture", "Access", "Exit" "Hazards", "Entry buffs", "Exit buffs", and "Time-limiting effects". Compare this with Template:List of Halloween maps), rather that trying to textually summaries and compare all of the Halloween maps, the characteristics of the maps were extracted into a terse table.

M I K A D O 282 🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃 🎃🎃 🎃🎃 (talk) (To Do) 03:43, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

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I'm sorry if I went into too much detail. I guess I got excited with creating the page and let myself get carried away.

My turn to criticize your work. :P

Although I like the stuff you added, I'd like to point some things out:

• "Underworld can also specifically refer to those haunted islands surrounded by lethal stygian waters" - Slasher and Cauldron both have Underworlds called simply "Underworld" that do not feature stygian waters. Also, "can specifically" sounds a bit... Off, don't you think ("it has the possibility of being specific")? :B
• There is only one Loot Island, and it's the one in Eyeaduct's Purgatory. No other map has used that name.
• Ghost Fort's Skull Island does not have a horned skull, it's the Skull Island in Helltower's Hell that does.
• Technically, only two achievement items "can only be earned in certain Underworld locations": the Bombinomicon and the Unfilled Fancy Spellbook (three if you count the extra Halloween Gift Caudron from Bumper To Bumper To Bumper).
  • The Mildly Disturbing Halloween Mask, the Ghastly Gibus, the Haunted Metal Scrap and the items it can be crafted into, the Saxton Hale Mask, and the Necro-Smasher can all be earned outside of Underworlds (while the Necro-Smasher requires playing the bumper car mini-games, if the fourth CoC achievement is Arms Reduction, then it is obtained outside the bumper cars realm).
  • The Skull Island Topper is earned on Ghost Fort's Skull Island, which is not an Underworld (I listed it as such because of its similarity with Underworlds, but I made sure that I noted it isn't one).

I think it would be best to remove the "Underworlds" section, to simply have a list of maps with Underworld locations, and, as you said, transfer its contents to the pages of the maps those locations belong to. Yes, I spent a lot of time writing all that, but I think it would be the optimal choice. - BrazilianNut (talk) 08:44, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

I think you can really help with the corrections updates to the lead bullets. I wrote them before SF 2017, with only a quick limited update late last night. The intention in the bullets is to provide some definition for the common names used on multiple maps, and as you have seen, there are now exceptions. But I think disambiguations could eventually link here for

• Underworld (proper): There may now be no consistent definition; and if none can be found, the rest of the bullet list may be untenable. Suggestions? "... or other lethal zones" (or falls)?

• The ideas I am trying to express and come to terms with here it that there are two distinct usages of Underworld; 1) Specific Locations named Underworld (proper) by Developers and Valve. 2) The broad Underworld term commonly used for the broad class of alternate play locations.

• Loot Island (proper): Yes, there is only one Loot Island. But in the Community (and IIRC, Developer discussions) the term has been used (non-proper) for any island that either gives loot or has a skull or Bombinomicon.

• Skull Island (proper): You are right. Does it work just to delete "horned"? Or is there only one "Skull Island" and all the horned ones are Hell or something? Is Moonshine Event horned?

• Achievement items: As Valve seems to continue to drift increasingly way from Underworld Achievements, the bullet has less relevance. Wait! The Contracts have pick up the torch! How about, "Achievements, Achievement items, and Contracts..." ?

Additional points:

• Can you go through the Workshops and game files for the new maps and see if any other Developer's names for Locations are given?
• I would prefer (I could be wrong) for someone to eventually make up a table to replace the list under List of maps with Underworld locations to the present list, but it it doesn't need to be done immediately. (Honestly, I created Halloween map for my own use as an editor, I needed it to help me to keep all the feaures of the different maps straight as I wrote, but I also hoped that others would appreciate it. If I were to create the table here, I would be in the same spirit. 👻)
  • As it could be a complex table, I wouldn't expect the first version to use translation switching as the content is decided.
  • I think a column each for "Entry Buffs" (most but not all heal, a few overheal) and "Exit Buffs" would be most useful to new users. (Still, the main article should have full textual detail on the Buff.
  • An "Access" column might also be useful to the new player as it is not always obvious. The complete accesses for Brimstone took me hours to fully confirm. I see hardly anyone using the access coffins in Gravestone (Do they not know or do they not care?)

Thank you for the discussion.

M I K A D O 282 🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃 🎃🎃 🎃🎃 (talk) (To Do) 14:01, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Also, I also see how Skull Island is not "under the world" because you can see it right there from the main level. But it is functionally and cosmetically Underworld? Is it the the whole main level that is Underworld?

M I K A D O 282 🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃 🎃🎃 🎃🎃 (talk) (To Do) 14:24, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

The mold is broken

So, examining the Underworlds of this update, it is inescapable that there is no consistent application of the common proper names (i.e., Underworld, Purgatory, Hell) So, I am considering reworking the lead bullets to just a list of the first few innovative Underworlds (essentially, the same list, but with all generality removed) Then work up a list of attributes (e.g., Entry Buffs: No Heal/Full Heal/Overheal; Exit Buffs: Full Heal/Overheal/Invulnerability/Crits; Hazards: Pitfall/Health Drain/Stygian Waters/Lava/Astral fall/Skeletons/etc.; Access: White Portals (fixed)/Purple (random)/Bombinomicon; Exit: Portal/Prize Skull/Round; and maybe a last column for Prize/Achievement/Contract. Then it would be fairly easy to make a table, each distinct Underworld getting its own row (e.g., three rows in the table each for Brimstone and Gravestone, but 2 rows for Hellstone. M I K A D O 282 🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃 🎃🎃 🎃🎃 (talk) (To Do) 01:52, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Example limited notes: Gravestone Island Exit Buff: Overheal/Invulnerability/Crits. Cauldron Exit Buff: Full Heal/Invulnerability/Crits(?) M I K A D O 282 🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃 🎃🎃 🎃🎃 (talk) (To Do) 03:25, 31 October 2018 (UTC)