Team Fortress Wiki:Discussion/Archive 18

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Archive 17: January—February 2012

Proposing an "In Other Games" page of sorts...

Typically, TF2 appearances in other games, such as Worms: Reloaded or Dungeon Defenders, appear in said Trivia section of the page. However, for those with many appearances elsewhere, like the Pyro, we end up with a long list of Trivia detailing the exploits of Hudda Hudda Huh in other games. Why not just take every instance where TF2 has appeared in another game, and make a new page out of it? -- InShane 05:54, 1 March 2012 (PST)

We already have that, just as a subsection. -- Hefaistus - talk 06:15, 1 March 2012 (PST)

Well then, blast! I guess my question now would be if each of these instances should be mentioned on each trivia page. I felt that it was fine when the references were few, but the trivia some pages, like the aforementioned Pyro page, is over half-occupied with appearances in different games. -- InShane 07:15, 1 March 2012 (PST)

I guess a section dedicated to other games should go in each of the dedicated Class reference pages. I'll look into it tonight. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 07:24, 1 March 2012 (PST)

Patch layout upgrade or modification

I saw this nice: "patch name"-template, and i just thought that for every language the change for the next patch is done(after = ...). I mean these parts: before, current, after ; these are manually added in every language after the next patch is announced. It reminded me of the Patches page itself which works now as a template and must be edited only once and the rest will change itself. So couldn't this also be done on a greater scale? Please tell me what you think and know about it! TheDoctor 19:36, 1 March 2012 (PST)

Please continue this discussion here. -- Pilk ^(talk) 09:42, 10 April 2012 (PDT)

Would PS3 modding count under hacking?

I was thinking about updating the Hacking page with info about hacking the PS3/XBOX 360 versions of the game, as they are practically hacks aswell.

Would this be a good idea?--Iamgoofball 22:09, 5 March 2012 (PST)

New template(s) proposal

Hi all, I've not made any edits for a month or so, mainly because it's been pretty quiet and I'm loathe to make work for work's sake. However, I saw this thread on SPUF, and decided to help the guy out and improve the wiki at the same time.

The almost-finished (item name links need improving) template is here, and it uses a base layout, which is seperate from the data to allow for easier editing.

The base template also uses a new User:Rebmcr/qualitycheck template (thanks to EpicEric), which could be used in place of Template:canbeunusual, if it's considered a good idea.

I need to write a Usage section for these 3 new templates tonight, but I just wanted to start getting opinions on this now. rebmcr 03:34, 14 February 2012 (PST)

OK, usage section written, appearance improved. I feel this is of a quality now that can go onto the main site. What does everyone think? rebmcr 13:57, 15 February 2012 (PST)

 I approve of this.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 13:12, 15 February 2012 (PST)

 I approve of this in a superior fashion compared to Epic Eric -- Firestorm 13:13, 15 February 2012 (PST)

Here's my two cents:

• Title bar is too big, should only cover one line (might also read better as "Possible weapon qualities")
• Background colour makes it hard to see the breaks between weapons - try switching it to #FFDDAD as in this one
• Don't really need the key twice - all other templates on the wiki just have it at the bottom

Nice job overall. I saw that post on the forums too and was thinking about throwing a template together. Glad I didn't bother because this one's much better than anything I could have come up with!

» Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 14:35, 15 February 2012 (PST)

Thanks for the feedback, been a bit (a lot) busy since last week, but I applied those suggestions now and fixed the bug with the title size. rebmcr 13:14, 20 February 2012 (PST)

• Looks like the feedback was spread out over each page in the project, so I've grouped it here (if that's Naughty, please let me know). I would really appreciate more opinions, guys! rebmcr 13:14, 20 February 2012 (PST)

 I support this, but, we must decide whether to include such qualities as vintage for items that were not intended to be vintage (like Earbuds), as well as the community and self-made qualities. I eat derpcakes 10:28, 10 March 2012 (PST)

Earbuds aren't weapons =/ I don't think it's worth adding Self-Made or Community, as practically any item can be found in those qualities. The current ones (Normal, Unique, Vintage, Genuine and Strange) are enough. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 13:44, 10 March 2012 (PST)

IMO, it should only list qualities that are normally obtainable. Eg.: Big Kill should be listed only as Unique, not Vintage, as it was obtainable through an unusual method.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 13:56, 10 March 2012 (PST)

Alrighty then, no bugged items (frowny face). I will proceed to comment that the strange-quality checkmarks are very hard to make out and hurt your eyes too. I'll work on the rest of the items' qualities, if you don't mind WHICH YOU DON'T. I eat derpcakes 14:16, 10 March 2012 (PST) Oops you took care of that =/ I eat derpcakes 14:17, 10 March 2012 (PST)

Gonna do a mmmphing awesome upgrade to the tick/cross cells now. Watch this space. rebmcr 05:39, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

Done, see below.rebmcr 14:45, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

 Heck yes. But I think you should just include the Multiple classes weapons on their respective classes. It's not such a big deal to have 3 shotguns in the template, but if users find it easier to locate, it should be better. GianAwesome 19:24, 10 March 2012 (PST)

 I have no strong feelings one way or the other What does everyone else think? What about Saxxy and Objector? rebmcr 05:39, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

 This looks like a pretty good idea I quite like the look of it apart from the black title box of the weapon. I think it'd be better to look more like this. Bojjob 08:57, 21 March 2012 (PDT)

New Stuff!

• Got a NEW VERSION for your approval/disapproval. I'll re-flow it into 8 columns when I get a consensus on whether to fold-in multi-class weapons (no point re-flowing it twice). rebmcr 14:45, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

 I still approve of this  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 15:08, 15 March 2012 (PDT)

• Also calling for votes on how to display the ticks/crosses! Look HERE and then let me know what style you'd prefer! rebmcr 14:45, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

Batallion's Backup has the Festive Flame Thrower icon. Otherwise, nice job!--Iamgoofball 15:53, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

You're looking at the next row. rebmcr 15:55, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

I like it, but the key looks weird; it is currently too big it fit in it's own section. 18:25, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

Yeah, the CSS is bugged in Chrome. Gonna fix it this afternoon. rebmcr 04:13, 12 March 2012 (PDT)

 1  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 15:08, 15 March 2012 (PDT)

 Suggestion - Why not have the checks and stuff to the right side of the weapon icon? Well, let me answer that myself: HHHH's "Unusual only" message. But I think it's still doable and worth considering. I eat derpcakes 09:49, 17 March 2012 (PDT)

Because then it becomes a lot easier to confuse the ticks for Item A, with Item B next to it. rebmcr 04:03, 19 March 2012 (PDT)

Lang icon Additional strings

Currently, Template:Lang icon only supports translated string for the word English. Sometimes it has to be used for other languages, but when you do that it shows the string of the language IN that language, for example, "Lang icon|ru" generates Русский. I think we should add the strings for other languages. GianAwesome 11:52, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

I support this idea, but I wonder how often it is really needed. TheDoctor 12:00, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

Yes, it is already designed to support that but no one has added any other languages except English (so {{Lang icon|en}} works in the page's language). If you look at the contents of the template you should be able to figure out how to add translations for other language names, not just "English". – fashnek _(talk·c) 09:55, 17 March 2012 (PDT)

"Random Page" button will never give any english pages

For the last 20 or so times I hit the random page button, none of the pages I got were in english.

I just thought I should say that, as that gets extremely annoying. Especially if it happens every single time, like it is now.--Iamgoofball 21:32, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

It's a software limitation. This happens because there are more translated articles than there are original, English ones. We can't do much about it. I eat derpcakes 15:17, 13 March 2012 (PDT)

It may be a software limitation, but it pretty much makes the random page button useless. Calq 15:37, 15 March 2012 (PDT)

Solution: Don't use it. I eat derpcakes 15:39, 15 March 2012 (PDT)

This was discussed before; a script to fix this has been created, but since we don't have server access and rely on Valve implement it (and they aren't answering us), there's nothing we can do about it.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 15:47, 15 March 2012 (PDT)

Bundles Template (lang. switched)

I just saw that the german page of the Bundle is outdated and the Prices and Availability changes, and to keep it in all languages correct, i would find it great if there would be a template for it. Also for new Bundles it would be great to have at least all Bundles listed, instead of not seeing all content. Soooo someone here to support my idea??? TheDoctor 05:41, 12 March 2012 (PDT)

Idea: A real 3D model viewer for weapons and hats

This is just an idea. Nothing that I have the power to even attempt to understand.

A discussion in IRC led me to think about having a JavaScript model viewer - like HLMV in your browser. Theoretically the user would be able to move the model in true 360 degrees, jigglebones and paints and all. We could have a version based on WebGL, and another based on 2D canvas. (Have no idea what I just said? WebGL is a newer web technology that takes advantage of the graphics card for 3D images. 2D canvas is slightly older and not as optimized for 3D images, but is supported more than WebGL.) If WebGL was not supported the other version of the model viewer would load instead.

Here's the problem: Somebody needs to code it.

Now, that's not to say from scratch; Source rendering in JavaScript has been done. However, the code must drastically change for our purposes. I'd like to see from the community whether you think it might be worth it to contact the guy who created a Team Fortress map with JavaScript, and to otherwise pursue the idea of this model viewer.

Please discuss. I have no idea what you will say, and I won't until you say it! rZ 09:00, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

The issue with that is someone needs to code all the shaders too, otherwise the models won't actually look like they do ingame. I'm not opposed to that, but it's a lot of work for whoever takes that on. It would make the workflow of generating the 3d models a heck of a lot easier. I think a webGL viewer is too heavy for the wiki though, I've also had a lot of issues with them. —Moussekateer·talk 09:42, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

I'd just like to point out that this has been done (albeit with many bugs and the like). rZ 11:23, 30 March 2012 (PDT)

Image Consistency: Part Deux

Further to the discussion I started a few weeks ago, most of the image names for all Hats and Miscellaneous Items are now named consistently - much kudos to FreeXMan for moving all the files I marked as incorrect. There are just a few more files to be done - these are ones which are actually missing and need to be made from scratch, so if anyone who uploads images for the Wiki could have a go at some it would be appreciated. There are 4 to do:

• Lo-Fi Longwave (File:Lo-Fi Longwave.png)
• Gold Dueling Badge (File:Gold Dueling Badge.png)  Done
• Tournament Medal - GWJ Tournament (File:Tournament Medal - GWJ Tournament.png)  Done
• Merc Medal (File:Merc Medal.png)  Done

Once the last of these have been uploaded, the {{Item infobox}} can be modified as needed to hard-code the images into it. That should save someone the effort of going through every page in every language and changing all the filenames before all 216 of the old redirects are deleted. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 09:34, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

Again this seems like a lot of work for very very little benefit, template and usability wise. Also there is nothing inherently wrong with redirects, that's what they're there for. —Moussekateer·talk 09:48, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

The paint gallery and item icon templates have images coded directly into them, which makes them easier to use and update. I'm just trying to get a similar thing working here. Once it's done, it's done, but the work will only get harder the longer it's left. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 09:54, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

The item icon and paint gallery templates are a completely different situation. They need to have consistent naming because the former template is used extensively across the wiki and the latter is 30 or more images used on a single page. In those cases consistent naming makes absolute sense. Single images used on single pages did not need that ridiculous amount of unnecessary work. The image name is highly unlikely to change once set on the page and as far as I can tell the only benefit all that work gave was for the sake of a random image picking template. Consistency is nice but not at the sake of common sense. —Moussekateer·talk 13:39, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

That does make absolute sense. But what about the Backpack images? There's only one of them in each userbox, and it essentially serves the same purpose. Anyway, it's done now - all we need is a couple of new images to finish off. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 15:38, 19 March 2012 (PDT)

Single paint colours with team variance

Some hats/miscs look different on RED and BLU, even with non-team paints applied. On hats like Whoopee Cap and Bombing Run, it's absolutely fine, as you can still see the paint colour. However, on Defiant Spartan (for example), the way it's set up for painting leads to completely different colours with the same non-team paint, on different teams. I propose this template to either replace the existing one in the article, or be linked on a subpage: User:Rebmcr/Template:Painted_variants/team. Please note that I'm only proposing this for the really different ones, NOT for Whoopee, Bombing, etc. rebmcr 15:20, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

 Support for all hats that change with teams. rZ 15:31, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

No, there's no point if just a decal changes. This is only for if the actual paint colour changes. rebmcr 15:33, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

All hats that change with teams even when painted. rZ 15:36, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

Language Switched Template Bundles List

I saw that in other languages(ko,ja etc...) the price list and other things didnt worked out nice. So i made a template for it which is really simple but works excellent. I could replace the old bulky texts on the Bundles site, and shift it into a new place to support general updated sites on all languages, with still the possibility to add notes or other things. Here my template: User:TheDoctor/Template:bundletest . I will apply this template to every translated page if i get the okay from some moderators about it. Please tell me what you think about it, it's my first language switched template. TheDoctor 16:54, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

 Support It doesn't really affect me personally, because language switching, but I like it. This should definitively be initialized. 17:38, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

Pilk said it's okay, so i added it. Discussion is closed i guess. TheDoctor 03:25, 19 March 2012 (PDT)

New wiki homepage

As you may have seen my edit spamming, Pilk and I have been making a New Wiki Mainpage based off a design made by Benjamoose. features: - can squish down down while looking good still down to 550px wide (which is the minimum width it can shrink to) - Uses divs not a table or 2, this provides dynamics to the page, making the formatting work better for your browser - according to some users (i cannot test this myself ='( ) it is compatible with mobile browsers! - the color scheme looks cleaner therefore a better and easier to navigate page (everyone likes easier navigation right?) - uses a custom font Blackoak for the headers see this image for reference

so, feedback would be much apppreciated =) - Lexar - talk 05:59, 23 March 2012 (PDT)

Looks great, but I would suggest making the class bar of another colour but grey. It looks a little bland like that. -- OluapPlayer _(t) 06:02, 23 March 2012 (PDT)

I'm actually in favour of a more understated, minimalist colour scheme. I also heartily support divs over tables. rebmcr 06:18, 23 March 2012 (PDT)

Additional- A different colour scheme would also help to differentiate ourselves from the other wiki.rebmcr 06:20, 23 March 2012 (PDT)

 Very Strong Oppose - Minimalistic color scheme for a wiki about such a colorful game is stupid. The proposal is very dim, not welcoming at all (a main page should be welcoming). The current main page is much easier readable. SiPlus 06:44, 23 March 2012 (PDT)

 Support using divs,  Oppose the new look of the page. It's nice, and obviously had a lot of work put into it, but it makes sense to keep the current colour scheme, as every table on the wiki uses that nice orange from the logo. The main page should carry the same colours, in my opinion. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 09:59, 23 March 2012 (PDT)

 Support layout, gradients and sleek look,  Oppose current color scheme. Perhaps some non-grayscale colors and an interesting image background would spice things up. rZ 10:35, 23 March 2012 (PDT)

 Can agree but  ...., I want the new homepage to be more of a new skin to the Wiki users. The new homepage should be chosen by options set by users and what they would prefer, so I will vote for Skin Setting on this new, swaggish homepage. TNS 23:34, 11 April 2012 (PDT)

This May Sound Crazy But, I propose Strange Crafting.

Honestly, As a Strange Lover, I think a player should be able to craft 2 Stranges of the same class into a strange scrap, And Craft Strange Scrap into Strange Rec, And use that Strange Reclaimed metal in the crafting recipe of the weapons you want, as long as there is a STrnage Variant of that weapon. For example, You should be able to use that strange Rec in the PowerJack Recipe with an axtinguisher, and get Strange PowerJack, But you would NOT be able to use it in a Righteous bison recipe because there is no strange variant. What Would make this an even easier concept is if there was either A.) A Whole New Tab For Strange Crafting, (right next to the Tab for Crafting Halloween Items) or B.) When you click on an item in the craft page, there should be a recipe UNDER the Normal recipe which calls for a strange variant of the metal required to make the weapon originally. An Even Better Solution so as not to change crafting so much, the Alternative crafting recipe could call for a regular metal, but a Strange variant of the weapon used in crafting, So a Strange Loch-N-Load could be made from either the first Option for Strange crafting: Strange Reclaimed Metal, and a Unique Scottish resistance, or the alternative: A Normal Reclaimed Metal, and a Strange Scottish Resistance... Any thoughts? — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Barkatsuki (talk) • (contribs)

• Please sign your posts, and remember, we just document TF2, we don't decide how it works.rebmcr 13:19, 24 March 2012 (PDT)

 Interesting. I must say, this is quite a good idea. However, if it's just for the weapon and not for the strange attribute, insted of paying, say, 1 scrap for a Frontier, you'll pay 2 rec or hell, even a ref. I guess people can do this calculation in mind though, so it's not that big of a deal. I can imagine it right now. Now tell this to valve. Rocket Sticky Jumper Talk 06:08, 29 March 2012 (PDT)

The wiki is not an appropriate place for discussion on gameplay/item/crafting ideas. SPUF is a much better place for that. -- Pilk ^(talk) 09:33, 10 April 2012 (PDT)

Ze besser place iz alwayz ze SPUF :D TNS 23:37, 11 April 2012 (PDT)

A note on the different weapon list templates

On Template:Weapon list the Sapper is listed as PDA, yet on Template:Allweapons Nav it's listed as a secondary weapon. The Spy's revolvers are also listed as secondary weapons on Template:Weapon list, but as primary weapons on Template:Allweapons Nav. There's also no PDA2 slot on Template:Weapon list. So on Template:Weapon list the Sapper, Disguise Kit and the Spy's watches all end up being listed under PDA. Adreadline 08:48, 27 March 2012 (PDT)

Should we list current (and possibly past) owners of the new hats?

Title says all. A discussion in IRC led me to start this discussion since there wasn't a clear consensus as to what we would do.

Please, please oh please put in your two cents. rZ 15:31, 28 March 2012 (PDT)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvdf5n-zI14 SS2R 15:32, 28 March 2012 (PDT)

No.– fashnek _(talk·c) 15:33, 28 March 2012 (PDT)

 Neutral No to recording past ones (who cares?), maybe to mark down current owner if it is possible to script this or else it will get forgotten. It is AFAIK not possible to script this right now, so no. — Wind 15:34, 28 March 2012 (PDT)

 Nope That sounds like after this first week it would be awful to keep track of and update. Also, I don't see it to be very notable. 15:35, 28 March 2012 (PDT)

 I disagree. I don't know who would like to know that, exepct from trolls or scammers, but if there weren't any of these scammers, I'll just say it's pointless, with all respect. Rocket Sticky Jumper Talk 06:01, 29 March 2012 (PDT)

 Heckno.ogg I also think this is pointless, and would only be useful to trolls ("hurr durr trade me this hat omg"). real_alien (T/C) 06:07, 29 March 2012 (PDT)

 Mebbe.mpg Ctrl+C Ctrl+V what Wind said. Though it's probably impossible to script something like that, seeing as those items are weird and all.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 18:56, 29 March 2012 (PDT)

 Neutral Interesting idea and probably would be good to have, but impossible to maintain. Someone would have to hunt for the current owner every day, and that would be impossible. Balladofwindfishes 05:09, 30 March 2012 (PDT)

AAAnd... Can't find anything to do.

Hello, my name is Rocket Sticky Jumper (RSJ) and I just signed to the wiki about a week ago. I've been playing TF2 for about 1010 hours now(!) and I thought I can help here a lot through my knowledge. Though, searching through the two forts of knowledge, I haven't found anything to edit or create. Ideas to do here, maybe?

Thanks, Rocket Sticky Jumper Talk 05:56, 29 March 2012 (PDT)

There's a task list for this - there aren't many requests there at the moment but it does list a few ongoing tasks which need to be kept in check, so take a look and see what you can do. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 06:17, 29 March 2012 (PDT)

Thanks, but I know about the task list, not much things I specify in (Weapons-Patches-Updates) need cleaning up or expanding. Rocket Sticky Jumper Talk

If anyone else is reading this, the Community Strategy pages need tons of cleanup in both the gameplay and english departments. I've revamped several strategy articles in the past, which is why Basic Strategy looks presentable, but the Community Strategy pages are impossible due to their length and large amounts of things I'd attempt to change. -- InShane 08:04, 3 April 2012 (PDT)

There are a lot of community website pages that need to be created or fleshed out. --Fiskie ^{Talk :: Contribs} 08:49, 3 April 2012 (PDT)

Templatizing common phrases/sentences for items

This is an issue brought up by Stormbird. The suggestion is to replace common phrases with translated templates that may be transcluded onto item pages. An example is the current Halloween Restricted Template which is placed on any Halloween restricted item. Stormbird had created templates such as:

• {{Template:Weapon change destroys buildings}} --> Switching from this weapon to a different melee weapon will destroy all existing buildings.
• {{Temporary item day}} --> Possession of the hat is not permanent and is limited to a single day.

And these templates would be translated and placed onto any applicable page. There are several pros and cons associated with this:

 + Reduces minor errors on page creation

 + Can correct a mistake across many articles

 + Can change the text across many articles

 - Can be confusing for editors when pages start to have more and more templates

 - Possible page slowdown (Not sure how much of an issue this is)

What are your thoughts in having templates such as these? -- Firestorm 10:26, 30 March 2012 (PDT)

 Neutral I like the Halloween restricted template because it's tiresome to change the same thing 29 times, but there aren't many articles for the two above (6 and 3), and those lines are relatively short. Until there are more articles with the same phrase or longer phrases, I think we can trust the users to make changes. Tabs 18:13, 1 April 2012 (PDT)

 Neutral Same as Tabs said - I made the Halloween restricted template simply because there were so many items that use it. I'm not against using a similar thing for more items but templates like the {{Temporary item day}} one will only be on 3 articles, which isn't really worth the hassle at this point. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 10:19, 10 April 2012 (PDT)

Not really. Multiply it by — how many languages do we have? — Stormbird ^T│C 12:19, 10 April 2012 (PDT)

Templete Idea: WikiBreak

"WikiBreak" is a term used to describe a break from Wikipedia, and since this is a Wiki project, I thought it'll be great to add this temeplete on here:

{{Wiki Break|7|Exam Prepration}}

Will produce:

This user is taking a Wiki break for 7 day(s). Reason: Exam Prepration.

So, questions about this idea:

1. Do you think this will work (Aka: will you actually use this?)
2. Wikipedia has different Wikibreak templetes for different events, i.e. Medical Surgery/illness, Exams, School etc. Should I make some too? Rocket Sticky Jumper Talk 11:40, 31 March 2012 (PDT)

Well, I would have used this last week... rebmcr 04:45, 1 April 2012 (PDT)

I did make this as a userbox before, somewhat.

This user is on vacation right now. Reason: Hurr Durr.

--Fiskie ^{Talk :: Contribs} 08:51, 3 April 2012 (PDT)

The preceding discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.