Team Fortress Wiki:Discussion

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Reference guidelines...

As some of you undoubtedly know, I'm a bit of an academia nut, and I like my references when I'm not sure if something's correct or not. Sooo, I've written out referencing guidelines and created some templates ({{cite web}}, {{cite article}}, {{cite book}}) that might help such a process. I'm not trying to make a nazi requirement that every postulation must be sourced, but I've often missed references to information about voice actors, release dates, etc. and felt the requirement to search for it online. What say you? ~ lhavelund ^{(talk ▪ contrib)} 23:34, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Are you referring to referencing external resources? TF2Wiki could probably emulate Wikipedia by using footnotes? Misterslin 01:27, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Bring the Ban Hammer page?

Could we please bring back the Ban Hammer page? I liked it and it seemed fine not to delete it. Any opposed? --Hobbes348 04:22, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

The Ban Hammer isn't real and does not exist. It's a joke item put in the backpack by Drunken F00l. Moussekateer 04:22, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I know, was this the reason why the page was deleted? --Hobbes348 04:24, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Because it doesn't actually exist in the TF2 universe? It only exists in the TF2Items site, which is no way related to the actual TF2 game, or VALVe, or anything that might make it potentially acceptable to have a page related to it? Serg 04:25, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I get it now--Hobbes348 04:28, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

{{Allweapons Nav}} and {{HatNav}} must die. Seriously.

They're outgrowing themselves, taking up more than 50% of some pages. I think each class nav is just fine, people can easily get to hat or weapon pages if they need to. Let's focus on smaller navs, because those two templates really give me eyesores. ~ lhavelund ^{(talk ▪ contrib)} 22:37, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Make them collapsed by default? --Firestorm 22:39, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I just really don't see the point anymore. They create more confusion than help by presenting the player with so much information in a tiny matrix. ~ lhavelund ^{(talk ▪ contrib)} 22:41, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

 Support They are pretty much deprecated by the Hats and Weapons pages anyway. -RJ 22:41, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

 Support Makes sense, the class navs are good GeneShark 22:43, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

 Support I agree. They're becoming huge. Zoolooman 22:58, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

 Comment How about replacing the names with smaller, 16x16px thumbnails of the weapons/hats that one could mouse over to see the names? That way it would fill less space and multi-line cells on the table would be replaced with a single line of thumbnails, one after another... Stab ! 23:06, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

16x16px weapon icons? They'd be impossible to make out. Besides, I don't see the point, when we have Weapons and Hats. ~ lhavelund ^{(talk ▪ contrib)} 00:10, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

 Oppose HatNav was a decent amount shorter after my redo before someone decided to fatten it up by making all the rows 40% bigger than they need to be, and I've just made an equally-slim concept of Allweapons Nav. Also, users tend to like navs better then seperate pages or categories. Toomai Glittershine 00:30, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Concept I is exactly what I was trying to propose in my comment above. Well done. Stab ! 00:33, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

It still doesn't address my other problem with it—the existence of it in the first place. We have Weapons and Hats. I don't see a need for both to appear on each individual article. ~ lhavelund ^{(talk ▪ contrib)} 00:35, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Pages like that can coexist with related navs. They serve two different purposes: one is a listing of everything with a short overview, while the other is a way to get to any one from any other one. Toomai Glittershine 00:38, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

 Oppose While I agree that they take up a lot of space, that can just be fixed by making them collapsed by default. The weapons article is really really unwieldy for smooth navigation, while the weapon nav works great if you're trying to look all over weapons for mechanics questions, loadout ideas, and general curiosities. ~G-Mang (T|C) s 01:08, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

 Oppose per above --Piemanmoo 01:13, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

 Nope While it is huge, it is pretty useful (at least to me). I do agree that they should be compacted though, perhaps something similar to the Hats nav, but this slot distinction thrown in somehow. Also, I love this new "nope" option for comments. <3 — Wind 03:00, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Note: This vote is currently at a tie, with 4 in favour and 4 against. I'd like to set the deadline for voting to the 15th of October. A majority is required for the vote to pass. ~ lhavelund ^{(talk ▪ contrib)} 14:50, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

 Nope They are a convenient way to get to some of the most commonly read (I assume) pages. As G-Mang says, it would be a lot better if they were collapsed by default. They might be able to be reworked a bit to make them more space-efficient, but not removed outright. -- - _{(talk | contribs)} -- 22:01, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

 Comment I like them, they're quite helpful, but they do take up much space. I vote in favour of keeping them, albeit barely. TheMedik 22:09, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

 Neutral I hate how they easily take up most of the article now, but I don't think deleting them altogether would be the best solution. Making them smaller like the Hats nav or like Toomai's concepts would be the way to go. (Seriously, I really, really like his concept). Stab ! 22:17, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

 Oppose: I'd actually be against having the two be collapsed by default as well, they're rather useful for players who are new to the game. -The Neotank ( | Talk) 22:21, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

 Nope: Just make them collapsed by defalt. -- OluapPlayer _(t) 22:25, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

 Oppose: I vote for the introduction of Glittershine's concept. Neutral on the auto-collapse stance. (That is, if I can vote already on the matters). Neo Player 08:48, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

 Nope: Either auto-collapse or some kind of freaky frankenNav. It's quite useful when you just want to jump to a page rather than search it. Yes, I'm lazy, and I'm sure a good chunk of you all are too! --Vaught 09:01, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

So... tie broken then? -- - _{(talk | contribs)} -- 09:13, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the vote "deadline" is supposed to signify, but unless we've adopted some specific policy I'm unaware of, polling is not a substitute for discussion, and cannot be used to actually determine consensus. ~G-Mang (T|C) s 09:46, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

How about trying the above suggestions and see how they work out? Like the auto collapse or the slim version and see what gets the best approval. -- Neo Player 09:54, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

 Nope: I personally like those navs myself. They're useful for quickly hopping from page to page, and since they're at the bottom I don't have to worry about it cluttering any information on the page that I'm already looking at. --LordKelvin 17:25, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

 Oppose I think these nav's are fantastic and allow a user to quickly find the data they are searching for rather than sifting through pages. If you can find a way to collapse it by default then by all means do so, however do not delete them. Misterslin 01:21, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

 Oppose I've found these navs very useful for quick transitions to other hat/weapon pages. I really want them to stay. FlotsamX 01:28, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Mentor program

Sorry to be spamming this page to hell, but I appear to be getting all the good ideas tonight. I figured it might be an idea to introduce a mentors program for new editors to request an experienced editor in helping them with basic editing, checking their edits for them, etc. I'd love to volunteer as a mentor, and I'm sure a ton of others would too. It makes sense with this huge new influx of users we're getting :) ~ lhavelund ^{(talk ▪ contrib)} 22:49, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I'd prefer good help pages where we can send new people to, but I'm an asocial nerd... --CruelCow 22:51, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Noone's forcing anyone to become a mentor. ;) ~ lhavelund ^{(talk ▪ contrib)} 22:52, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I like the idea, but I tend to say CruelCow is right. First let's work on real and useful Help Page (seriously have you seen the Trivia Guide, I don't see the usefulness of it, it barely says anything and we keep redirecting new guys on it, because they all post trivias). Let's start by recreating correct Help pages and then I'll be happy to mentor some new editors (well I think I would be more useful if I was helping new french translators though). Tturbo 22:59, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I am somewhat on the fence on this. On one hand, it would hopefully cut down on the pointless spam of terrible additions and the continual need for grammatical and spelling corrections. But on the other hand, it honestly isn't that hard to figure out how to use the editor. I'm relatively new, but I've taught myself how to properly link and edit simply by looking at the existing pages and the edit guides. Gentlefood 23:03, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I think both sides here have good points, but people should be realistic. Our help pages definitely could use work, but it seems like a false dichotomy to me. It's not like either is a full-time job, and if help pages are so important, there's plenty of work done on the wiki that has less merit than a mentor program to divert from. I don't think people's reasoning for currently not editing help articles is because they're busy mentoring people, and realistically, I don't think a program would change that. If someone prefers teaching that way, and wants to take the time, I say go for it.

Obviously, if the mentor program we're talking about here is going to require a lot of foundational work from a lot of members of the wiki, the concept should probably be toned down to a more simple volunteer effort, because everyone already has a lot on their plates. But I didn't get the impression from the post that it's a major project, so I don't see any reason to be concerned. ~G-Mang (T|C) s 23:14, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

All I'm thinking is to add a simple page, like Team Fortress Wiki:Mentor program which defines what the program is about, Team Fortress Wiki:Mentor program/Request where new users can ask for a mentor, members can say they want to mentor that person, and the new member can add questions about anything and everything Wiki-related to that person's user page without feeling that they're intruding on that person's Wiki busines, or whatever. ~ lhavelund ^{(talk ▪ contrib)} 23:34, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

 Neutral I am not opposed to it, but people usually have different ideas about what should go on the wiki and what shouldn't. By restricting a user's questioning to one person, inconsistency might kick in. If it's about formatting only, however, is good idea~ — Wind 03:00, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I prefer to post hints and tips direct to users talk pages rather than specifically mentoring an individual. Its usually quite obvious who needs a hint (like use preview) etc--Markd 07:50, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

To explain a bit better what meant with better help pages: Right now, there is no explanation of, say, how to discuss on talk pages and new users have a hard time finding the rules/help. (At least I did. And yes, this is a shameless plug on my suggestion of the Welcome Template.) Of course, those 2 concepts aren't mutually exclusive. --CruelCow s ^(talk) 15:42, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

 Oppose We don't need official babysitters. -- Pilk _(talk) 10:01, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

 Oppose You really don't need this. Isn't this what the IRC channel is for? Asking random questions that you need help with? I think the time of the mentors is better put to use elsewhere. Also, as a TF2 mentor I personally find myself repeatedly answering specific questions and I think TF2Wiki Mentors will encounter the same problem. However, you have a tool that I don't: you can just create a page to answer these questions (like a FAQ). Misterslin 01:24, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

 Oppose Any editor who reads the guidelines and familiarizes himself with wiki style and formatting will do fine. If he is unwilling to do this, then why is he even bothering himself with trying to edit? FlotsamX 01:31, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Pages for Weapon Archetypes?

I've had this idea floating around for a little while: should we make pages for specific weapon archetypes? By archetypes, I mean the type of weapon they are from the "Level X XXXXXXXX". For example, the Buff Banner and Battalion's Backup are both "Backpack" archetypes, so they'd be put in a page together. The page would list weapons in that archetype, what the weapon does and traits about that type. What do you think?--The preceding unsigned comment was added by AstralLunar (talk) • (contribs)

Seems superfluous and redundant to me. Also, please sign your comments with ~~~~ and place new topics for discussion at the bottom of the page. -- - _{(talk | contribs)} -- 03:17, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Could easily be solved with just Primary, Secondary, etc. And even then, could be under Weapons. I'm unsure either way. --Vaught 03:52, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Community Portal Links

I noticed the link to TF2B in the category "team fortress 2" in the navigation bar and was wondering why TF2B was chosen and not Tf2items. Each site has its pros and cons and has the right to exist. My personal opinion is that TF2items offers more functionality as it has trade-matching and a history. On that matter I was wondering how to edit the links section part of the community portal: http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Team_Fortress_Wiki:Community_Portal - please excuse me if this isn't the spot to mention these things (I'm relatively new to the wiki-backstage). MikeRider 03:27, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

This is just the right spot, don't worry. I can't say anything about the sidebar links to TF2B vs. TF2Items, but as for the links on the Community Portal (which is currently in open review), those are stored in this template]. I took the liberty to reformat your comment a bit, to make it easier to read a structured discussion. –lhavelund  ·  ·  22:29, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Do we need an Arabic section of the wiki?

"Languages supported officially by the game are supported here. There are a few exceptions, however: Czech and Portuguese (Brazil) are supported by the Steam Translation Server, however, do not yet have TF2 localization files. Arabic has neither, however, will remain supported."

If Arabic has neither Steam Translation Server support, or sound/text support in TF2, this means that:

• The amount of Arabic TF2 players who solely speak Arabic is very low, as Team Fortress 2 is geared towards the officially-supported languages.
• The amount of people who are able to translate the English wiki into Arabic are not easily found.

And as a result, the Arabic wiki is one of the wikis most desperately in need of content. It is missing basic essential articles, such as class pages and weapons.

In any other situation I would suggest finding more contributors, but in Arabic's case I wonder if it's worth it. Who would the Arabic wiki be made for, the one (yes, only one contributor) person who is actively translating it?

Your insight would be appreciated. FlotsamX 23:57, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

I really don't think it is worth keeping up an Arabic section of this website. However, if that person is willing to put the time into doing so then let him do it. Then again, he's probably just doing it to rack up edits and since nobody else here speaks Arabic there is nobody to verify whether or not he is writing legitimate things...Misterslin 15:28, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

 Delete I don't want to sound like a jerk, but the facts are that we might not need it, we don't have the resources to put it together properly, and we have no way of ensuring quality info. Whether this lone user is making stuff up or legitimately contributing, all translators should have a working understanding of English. That means that even if we shut down the Arabic pages, he should still be able to contribute in a meaningful way. ::Scurve :: 23:08, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I also dont think we need an Arabic wiki. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thespy (talk) • (contribs) 19:59, 11 November 2010

Please sign your comments with a series of four tildes. ::Scurve :: 23:08, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

 Keep Hello guys, I'm Alsoodani, the translator for the Arabic section. Traditionally, most game companies do not have official game translation for Arabic. The market for Arabic speaking countries is diverse. Many do not have access to offer official products from outside. Many of you are asking What is the point of having an Arabic section if no one uses it? On the contrary, there are many Arabic users on the internet who play Valve games including Team Fortress 2! I have visited my home country Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Morocco, the UAE, Syria, and Lebanon. They all have sparse, but growing gaming communities! As for what got me to do this: I am currently living in a dorm with Arabic exchange students helping them out and generally translating for them (I double major in Arabic and Nueroscience) who don't speak a lick of good English. What got me started on this project was that they happen to play Steam games as well (mainly Counter-Strike, but they do play TF2) and the amount of information available online for Arabic-speaking gamers is very, very limited (if you don't count broken Google Translations). As a wiki contributer and as a student working on his Arabic Major I feel it is my duty to help out. I repeat, This effort is not being wasted.

For a general (very general) sample on the number of forums discussing Team Fortress 2 Check out this Google Search filtering only Arabic pages shown discussing Team Fortress 2: Google Link Once the front page and the major articles are established, instead of our Arabic-speaking Team Fortress 2 brethren cluelessly playing the game, they will have information at the Official Team Fortress 2 wiki! For those debating about my credentials or the accuracy of the actual Arabic, I am currently partially majoring in Arabic and am a senior in college. For those wondering if there will be more contributes, I have only started this project for a month. There will be more translators. For those, who think I am doing this for petty reasons such as "wracking up edits", I say to you: I translate whole pages one by one and there is currently approx. 1000 pages of English. That would mean if I translated everything, it would only be a mere apporx. 1000 edits. That is not a substantial amount to "wrack up" anything. It would be foolish to do so.

I feel that it is strange that I must defend a top spoken language in the world that is even spoken more than most of the supported languages over on the Team Fortress 2 wiki! I ask those that voted for removal to reconsider. I can understand a needed removal if it was some obscure language and that there are no users from that language, but this is not true. Simply put, Arabic translations are needed and their will be more translators past the infancy of this project. I feel it is my duty to inform those who are voting to remove the Arabic section on how this will affect the Arabic gaming community. Alsoodani 00:09, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

 Agree I must agree with Alsoodani. His effort seem genuine and I'd say there's a big overlap in Arabic people who play TF2 and doesn't understand very well English. — Neo_Player ^{(t ▪ c)} 00:18, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

 Agree Alsodaani has completely changed the way I looked at this. I'm also in favour of keeping it. :) –lhavelund  ·  ·  03:19, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

 Agree I agree with Alsodaani and I think the language should be kept. Stab ! 04:03, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Random Page gives mostly non-English pages

I was an editor of tf2wiki.net and decided to come here, and was about to use the "Random Page" button to start editing, but unfortunately it seems the page includes all non-English pages and as such, being that English is only one language, I was not able after several tries to actually get a random English page. Not that I wish to undermine our non-English-speaking contributors and readers - in actuality, since it's a random language, the Random Page button is useless to anybody who isn't omni-lingual. Piggie 20:34, 12 November 2010 (UTC)