Team Fortress Wiki:Discussion

create a new section

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

A gift after April's Fools

I thought it would be nice to leave a gift for April's fools so lets let the community download the skin of the weapons we made up. so here something I made to give them the link thorough it. Link for download the lamey site I made : http://www.mediafire.com/?6oi096fvs95sbqj Link for the skin http://dl.dropbox.com/u/43356210/disc.rar I have brought the idea to the IRC and people liked it. Atlas 17:35, 1 April 2012 (PDT)

 Support The idea of letting people download it, but I think it would be better to put the download link on the existing store page which, will be modified at midnight to explain what happened — Wind 17:50, 1 April 2012 (PDT)

Just letting you know , I have talked with Quin about this and he is 100% okay with us publishing his skin. Atlas 17:56, 1 April 2012 (PDT)

 Thanks! I actually thought the update, the page and the steam page was completely real, and although I knew it was April Fools, I really haven't thought it was a joke. Good job with that, hope to participte in April Fools 2013! Rocket Sticky Jumper Talk 00:37, 2 April 2012 (PDT)

The preceding discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

How about: User of the Month!

We could reward users for good work by featuring them in a section on the main page. Judges could look for edits, spirit, quality, like a featured article for users! --Enthers. (I find this work intriguing. How about yourself, sir?) 07:51, 3 April 2012 (PDT)

This is already been taken up by the Russians of the /ru section of the TF Wiki. They have told about their form of User of the Month in their Discussion page at the /ru translation discussions and recieved a reply from mods and admins about that the idea seemed alittle bit off the edge. It's a dead idea on the other hand. Maybe another time :/ TNS 23:41, 11 April 2012 (PDT)

 Support Sounds good to me. Blk Mage Ctype 12:08, 22 April 2012 (PDT)

3D Model Project: Hats

Whatever happened to the 3D model project for hats and miscs? A quick glance at the images depository reveals that some have been made pending changes.

The last I've heard of it was that Moussekateer had a "hat painting studio of sorts" in the works and under wraps as of October 2011. -Upgrade 00:45, 5 April 2012 (PDT)

Category icons

Hello everybody,

I just wanted to see what the community thought of these category icons:

I'm certainly not done with them yet - I will implement many, many more over time, as well as additional styling to make them as compatible across browsers as I can. If we decide that most of us like them, we can enable them for everybody (right now I'm the only one who sees them). r4wrzSwagmaster 13:45, 6 April 2012 (PDT)

Probably needs "margin-right:2px;" on each icon. rebmcr 13:48, 6 April 2012 (PDT)

 Nope I only see one in that giant screenshot but almost any representative icon will be unreadable at that size. – fashnek _(talk·c) 14:04, 6 April 2012 (PDT)

Just remember guys, (almost) everything is subject to change, including size. r4wrzSwagmaster 14:06, 6 April 2012 (PDT)

What are you asking then if everything will change? The icon already isn't readable, and I don't think any proper icon will be readable at that size. I also don't see how the size would change without either making the whole category list look like ass or making category text larger (which no one wants). Are you asking about category icons in general? I say they are a big waste. – fashnek _(talk·c) 14:09, 6 April 2012 (PDT)

 Support I like the idea, the implementation needs work though. margin-right is pretty much necessary, and some of the icons (the token ones) aren't recognisable at such small sizes. Need other icons, or icons made to look good at that size to begin with — Wind 14:12, 6 April 2012 (PDT)

I will be replacing the token icons with images of the weapons that are on them. r4wrzSwagmaster 14:14, 6 April 2012 (PDT)

 Whatever you like. I think this is cool, but the icons are too small and I don't know how to place images to some of these catagories (Untradeable items for example), thus making it un-consistant. I don't really love it, nor I hate it. Whatever you guys pick is fine with me. Rocket Sticky Jumper Talk 12:34, 7 April 2012 (PDT)

 No, sorry. Icons are too small, they don't add to readability. IMHO. — Stormbird ^T│C 02:40, 8 April 2012 (PDT)

It would maybe help if people could see them as they'd appear on an article, at their usual size. Here's the original:

And here's a version with icons:

I think there's potential, but we'd need to use icons which are a bit easier to distinguish. The Spy icon works well, but I couldn't think of anything else to use for the weapons. I suppose kill icons might be OK, but they'd need to be cropped a little. Of course, the other side of the argument is that they're just categories, and we don't really need to clutter up this space with images. What does everyone else think? » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 06:09, 8 April 2012 (PDT)

I agree that the class icons have potential to serve as a bit of illustration. However it would be difficult to find a representative icon for the weapon categories. Whatever the case, Wikipedia itself does not use images in its categories. Upgrade 14:24, 8 April 2012 (PDT)

 No This seems unnecessary. It would probably be a pain to implement as well. 15:17, 8 April 2012 (PDT)

It really wouldn't be a pain to implement... r4wrzSwagmaster 15:20, 8 April 2012 (PDT)

Well there are about 5000 categories... » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 16:33, 8 April 2012 (PDT)

I thought it would be rather obvious that I'm not making category icons for every one of them. I'll be focusing on the ones most used on item pages (which make up a lot of the wiki). r4wrzSwagmaster 16:35, 8 April 2012 (PDT)

 No I think it's entirely unnecessary. Before making a change like this you must consider what value this adds, besides potentially looking nice -- which is an arguably point in itself. -- Pilk ^(talk) 09:30, 10 April 2012 (PDT)

 Oppose They don't add anything useful to articles and only serve to break up the text in an uneven manner, not to mention the extra page load time this would add for very little gain. This isn't intuitive, this isn't helpful, this certainly isn't readable compared to the existing text, and it's too ambiguous (e.g Luger and Shotgun meaning different things when one would expect them both to represent the weapons category). i-ghost 09:36, 10 April 2012 (PDT)

 Oppose Not useful (can be quite cluttering actually in some cases with too many categories), icons can be misleading, unnecessary and not widely used (as you said, you'd only be "focusing on the ones most used on item pages", when the ideal would be that they all followed whichever pattern we were to pick). However, if you improve this, I'll rethink my position (maybe).  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 10:26, 10 April 2012 (PDT)

Round Two

Just to clarify, the point of these isn't to make them look pretty. It's to make it easier to see the categories at a glance, (hopefully) improving user friendliness in doing so. It would be very simple to implement as it stands, and is very much so a work-in-progress. Now, I've made some changes, and they should explain themselves:

Please tell me whether or not the changes have changed your opinion. (By the way, for some reason the icons and text are larger than they should be; please keep this in mind.) r4wrzSwagmaster 10:55, 10 April 2012 (PDT)

And how would they look like for Untradeable items, Valve-made items, Promotional items and Reskins? The main issue is the ambiguity of the currently used icons.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 11:01, 10 April 2012 (PDT)

Those, I think, we can leave without making icons for. AFAIK, they are not interesting to the average user. r4wrzSwagmaster 11:05, 10 April 2012 (PDT)

Then I'll have to  Disagree again because, as I said, these would be "not widely used (as you said, you'd only be 'focusing on the ones most used on item pages', when the ideal would be that they all followed whichever pattern we were to pick)". Nonetheless, the icons can be still misleading.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 18:10, 12 April 2012 (PDT)

 Yes I like it!, It makes the wiki look better and make it more friendly for the user. icons does make things much more clearer, sometimes a name isn't enough and an image could do all the magic to clear things up. Atlas 07:46, 22 April 2012 (PDT)

Change naming process(>100.000edits needed)+ Trading Cards - Consistent image, filetypes + descriptions

As already mentioned on the Talk page - Talk:Trading_cards

The image names for the front and back of trading cards are inconsistant and misleading, for example we have: Image:scout1.png, Image:scout2.png | Image:Demo_front.jpg, Image:Demo_back.jpg | Image:engineer_back.jpg , Image:engie2.jpg |Image:Spy_Card1.jpg, Image:spy2.jpg

On top of this the names and descriptions dont match so Image:Demo_back.jpg has description "Demoman trading card (Front)" and Image:Demo_front.jpg has "Demoman trading card (Back)"

I assume there would also be a preference for all images to be png? Govcon 11:02, 11 April 2012 (PDT)

Sooo this came up yesterday and I know we are all pretty busy. So I will now change the topic a bit and reduce your time to waste on it.
The question is: Do we need clear file names? The answer is obvious, we need to have a clear destincton for every file, so we dont need to scroll down to see where this picture is used and what for, and we have a base on how to proceed for now and the future uploads. We want to look and see in the file name a clear reason to it.

So gentlemen is this policy used by everyone? I dont see it the way it used to be. So that brings us into the unique position to add a little spirit and faith into the wiki and work as a team to reduce the file names which makes no sense to us, and add a little more logic into the wiki. You could ask: Why should we do that, because it works the way it is know? I can only beg of you to think about it, because in the future we will always get more and more insight and more information about the process.

So as an example, we dont want any File which are named Pyro1(picture of pyro) and Pyro2(trading card), or Demoman_back and Pyro_(Back), which are not telling you the right story, and are not consistent if you look for them first or try to add them yourself. Also i wanted to make this discussion more active because our workforce is needed in full strength.

Because from 1 till >100.000 edits all is possible if this naming procedure will be agreed on. So must chose now like we did in the past with normal weapons and hats with the naming to also have a general rule for the naming of files, and i think my client(Govcon) made a good example about how we can do it in this case, and also we should make some more rules for different kind of pictures, so that's it. TheDoctor 05:33, 12 April 2012 (PDT)
((((I always always always always wanted to be a lawyer for once, even if pretending, sorry.))))

I started the process of making all the images of hats and misc items have consistent filenames, but I don't think it's necessary to do this for every image on the wiki. The trading card images are used once on the class pages and Trading cards page, but nowhere else, and I don't see them being used for anything else in the future. Consistency is good, but there is little point in changing the filenames of images which are only used on one or two pages and unlikely to be touched again. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 10:04, 12 April 2012 (PDT)

Propose time!

I really like the Workshop, despite all the futuristic things and all. But I wanna suggest a build-in window for the homepage to the Wiki with a title called something related to the workshop. The item thumbnail picture should be loaded up with a direct link to the Steam Workshop item. A simple idea, but I need to hear out some of the Community if they (and you too, reader) would agree or mean the opposite of my suggestion here. This is what most people would call advertising, but I find it good to show other peoples work. The items showed must not last longer than a maximum of 24 hours and a minimum time of 12 (Change time if needed). Well, hope it would be a great and valuable contribution. Ready? GO! TNS 02:39, 12 April 2012 (PDT)

 Oppose A link to the Steam Workshop is enough (and we already have one).  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 18:08, 12 April 2012 (PDT)

 Nah. One word. Bias. rZ 18:57, 12 April 2012 (PDT)

Fortress Forever Trivia

I noticed a handful of articles (like Your Eternal Reward) have trivia about how the item is similar to the stats in the source mod Fortress Forever. I don't really see how this is important or relevant or trivia, unless we know for a fact the stats for YER were picked because of FF. This probably also applies to items that are coincidentally identical to Gang Garrison items. Balladofwindfishes 18:05, 12 April 2012 (PDT)

Disambiguation pages: global suggestion

Hi all!

(English is not my native language, so have mercy please :). On the other hand, it means that I see the aspects of this problem that are language-dependent.)

So here are some points on the problem and a possible way to solve it.

1. Main point: Disambiguation is always language-dependent.
   • Consequently, there can be no need in translating disambiguation description to other languages, they can just have no sense there.
     • Example: Point. In English this word could refer to a specific region on the ground, to the player score or to the aiming as a part of hat name. In Russian all three meanings are expressed by three different words, and the disambiguation article is not needed. Don't know about other languages, but guess it is a normal situation everywhere.
     • Example 2: All those abbreviations that brought this discussion to life.
   • Consequently 2 (less obvious), there can be disambiguations in other languages that have no sense in English.
     • Example: a Russian word Ключ (pronounced [klyuch]). This word can refer to the key as well as to the wrench in Russian, so we would like to have a disambiguation article on this word. But there is no corresponding article in English segment, as in English key and wrench have nothing in common.
   • Suggested decision: illustrated now by an example with Ключ.
     • First, I created an article Ru_Klyuch/ru. It has a name that is more or less readable for english-speakers and is located in /ru segment (so all localized templates are working correctly). The prefix Ru_ indicates that it is a special article and prevents possible conflicts in case some transliterations will be exactly like existing English words. I also suggest to introduce a new category for those pages, for example, [Category:Language-specific disambiguation] to help bots.
     • Second, I created an article Ключ, as we are doing now to define a cyrillic alias. This page is a standard language redirect to Ru_Klyuch/ru.
     • We are still within wiki standards, except that we don't have a page [[Ru_Klyuch]]. But this — and it is a key point in my suggestion — is a normal situation, because — see Main point. It is normal that a disambiguation is described in only one (or maybe several) languages and is missing in others. Of course, users in other languages will create their own pages, like Fr_Shershe_La_Fam/fr (one of the few phrases I know in French, lol :).
2. Point #2: We need some bot tuning, NOW. I suggest that the bot creating 'Missing translation' pages should ignore pages from Category:Disambiguation and all language categories like Category:Disambiguation/ru. Look at the page Missing translations/ru — we really need to get rid of this spam, it makes the page completely useless now.
3. Point #3: As I have said above, a new category Language-specific disambiguation should be introduced (or choose a better name if needed). Bot should be aware of this category too, and should not process missing pages from it.
4. After all this is done, we in our language segments should review all already localized disambiguations and kill those that don't have sense (I have started to mark such ones in Russian with {{cleanup}} now). At the same time, we should also think about our own disambiguation articles — the main goal of all this mess :)

Thanks to all who didn't quit reading :). Please think of this suggestion and if you agree, support it. It will not require much work from the wiki admins (just points #2 and #3, and a formal "Let's do it" permission), but will bring new opportunities to the non-english wiki users. — Stormbird ^talk 07:18, 17 March 2012 (PDT)

I agree with this but not the proposed naming scheme (Xx_RedirectName/xx). It would create articles in the main namespace, and quite a bunch of them. I would rather have a dedicated article namespace for this, even if "unofficial" (as in, not in MW's config), which would make it look like Disambiguation:RedirectName/xx. On top of that, it would make it easy to make the bot ignore these pages, because it would be able to tell that it is a disambiguation from the name, something that is not possible currently or with the proposed naming scheme, and is crucial to being able to generate "missing translations" lists easily without having to fetch extra information — Wind 16:29, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

 Agree, I like the idea of the new naming. 1) Didn't quite get it, you mean that RedirectName should be an English transliteration (like Klyuch) or localized (like Ключ)? And 2) what should be done before we can start making localized disambigs? — Stormbird ^talk 13:49, 19 March 2012 (PDT)

The RedirectName would be an english translation of the name of the redirect, so Disambiguation:Key/ru in this example. As for #2, need to assemble a list of disambigs to migrate before doing it all in one shot so that there is no confusion or in-between mistakes. Having a proper namespace definition in the MediaWiki config would be nice, but sadly that seems unlikely to happen at the moment because Valve won't moov :( — Wind 14:17, 3 April 2012 (PDT)

And why not Disambiguation:Wrench/ru? The main problem is that, as I have said, [klyuch] can refer to the key as well as to the wrench in Russian. And the disambiguation word to explain is Klyuch — there is no english equivalent to it, that's why I suggest to use transliteration. As for 2), I think that all current Category:Disambiguation/ru can be processed. — Stormbird ^T│C 12:30, 6 April 2012 (PDT)

Then how about naming it Disambiguation:RedirectName/xx where RedirectName is the name of the redirect page that goes to Disambiguation:RedirectName/xx (I think that was the original idea lol) — Wind 23:59, 7 April 2012 (PDT)

You got it :). Redirect page Ключ should go to Disambiguation:Klyuch/ru, making it clear both for russian and english users (the latter just need to know that the page concerns russian disambiguation). As for current english disambiguations, they will look like Disambiguation:Point, which is also easy to understand and support. — Stormbird ^T│C 02:35, 8 April 2012 (PDT)

Alright from me, but:

• Need more staff support for this (is big move and so far I'm the only one saying anything here)
• Need to make a list of such disambigs and where they should be moved to, in all languages (this will take some time)

— Wind 11:40, 9 April 2012 (PDT)

 Senõr Support -RJ 11:43, 9 April 2012 (PDT)

I can talk about russian segment only. As for russian disambiguations, this category now counts 276 pages, but the large part of them have no sense and can be removed permanently. The other part, however, should be preserved (maybe with small corrections) and be 'equipped' with transliteration and cyrillic redirect. This process will take some time and some efforts. I suggest to start with moving ALL those pages automatically to the new namespace, leaving their current names (Baseball cap/ru → Disambiguation:Baseball cap/ru) and adding some marking infobox like {{retrans}} or {{cleanup|Check if disambiguation exists in Russian}}. Having all this, local editors can process those pages: rename + add cyrillic redirect + remove marking infobox — or, if needed, just empty the article and add {{delete}}. No additional help from administration will be required at this step. — Stormbird ^T│C 12:20, 9 April 2012 (PDT)

Even better idea: the new infobox with instructions explaining the new disambig structure. It should briefly explain what to do with the article, so that any editor can understand the point. Maybe it should also add some special category mark, like [Disambiguations that require review/xx] — it will help monitoring progress. I can prepare the infobox draft tomorrow. — Stormbird ^T│C 12:27, 9 April 2012 (PDT)

Another option is not to move current disambigs at all. As I have said, most of them were created as translations of english disambigs, paying little attention to their real need in russian. Maybe it will be easier to look at all russian item names, game concepts etc. and create pure russian disambigs from scratch. — Stormbird ^T│C 12:20, 9 April 2012 (PDT)

 I agree, it never made sense to me the way it's set up now. Disambigs should only really be used to disambiguate search terms. -- Pilk ^(talk) 09:38, 10 April 2012 (PDT)

 I agree I like dis idea--FreeXMan Talk | Cont 12:26, 10 April 2012 (PDT)

Something like this: User:Stormbird/Template:Disambiguation that needs review. Maybe someone could help making the english description better. I also added detailed russian description, giving an example. — Stormbird ^T│C 12:38, 11 April 2012 (PDT)

Fixed some english on there, but it still says "move". I don't think it should say that because regular users could interpret that as doing the moving by themselves (by cutting/pasting), which would lose edit history information. It's better to make it say "Mark with the {{moov}} template" or something — Wind 18:32, 12 April 2012 (PDT)

Didn't find any 'move' word there, or maybe I understood you wrong? Anyway, feel free to change the text if you consider it necessary. — Stormbird ^T│C 23:51, 12 April 2012 (PDT)

Trading needs a new video!

I'm quoting what was said on the Trading Page Discussion:

" Since we don't use the old in-game trading system, someone needs to update the video showing how trading is done via the steam trade overlay.--— The preceding unsigned comment was added by Eugene (talk) • (contribs)

Agreed. Also, please sign all talk pages with --~~~~ --Piemanmoo 15:22, 14 March 2012 (PDT)

 Done - I have made a demo for trading you can see it here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ_4C33w7ss . It just needs music and the image at the start but from what I understood when they upload it to the channel they it by themselves. Atlas 06:21, 6 April 2012 (PDT)"

A video is made, all you have to do is to upload it! (Also...Add music, and the images in the start..) The video is on 1080 HD , this is more than the quality required. And really there is nothing to argue about - the old video is really not up to date. Atlas 16:06, 13 April 2012 (PDT)

"Hats & Misc" instead of just "Hats" ???

My question is if it is okay to rename the headline of each Class article from: "Hats" into "Hats & Misc" because in the past there were no miscs and now there are so many misc items. I think the headline is outdated. I also made anchors for hats and miscs into each template which lists them, so you can easily link to it directly with it. So someone against it? TheDoctor 07:39, 15 April 2012 (PDT)

I think it better to have a Misc subsection under the Hats header. rZ 05:11, 17 April 2012 (PDT)

If we were to split them up, we'd also have to modify the class hat table templates to display just hats, and make a seperate class misc table template. I'm for just labelling the section "Hats and miscellaneous items", or just "Cosmetic items". » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 06:05, 17 April 2012 (PDT)

There are already anchors in the template for both. So you can link Soldier#Misc f.e. or Soldier#Hats without the subsection needed so the Headline Hats could be renamed without a problem. Just not sure if all like that. TheDoctor 06:07, 17 April 2012 (PDT)

 Oppose I think it's much better and cleaner to have "Hats" meaning 'headgear + misc'. Everyone knows what you mean when you say hats. rebmcr 11:09, 17 April 2012 (PDT)

Because your opinion implifies that people assume that "hats" are "misc", without a proper base, i ignore the last part of your statement. Still let's try it with that: "Cosmetic Items" . Opinions ? TheDoctor 13:55, 17 April 2012 (PDT)

Soooo if no statements are against "Cosmetic Items" i will edit it into every class article on sunday. Objections ?? TheDoctor 05:44, 19 April 2012 (PDT)

Suggestions on how to improve Beta participation.

Players often complain about how long it takes for Valve to implement proposed buffs/nerfs for weapons in TF2, and in Valve's defense, how can you blame them when only a small percentage of players actively participate in the TF2 Beta? However, on the flip side, you can't exactly blame the community for not participating in the Beta, when you have to install a whole other game as well as find the free time to play it, and the only incentive to do so is to implement a small change in a weapon's stats every here and there?

Well, I have a suggestion that may serve as a solution to the problem, or at the very least, provide a basis for how to improve Beta participation.

INCENTIVE. As previously stated, most members of the TF2 community have little incentive to install/play the game, so a simple yet effective way to improve participation would be to add incentives to do so. Here's what I propose... Any new items that Beta testers receive in the TF2 Beta will be added to the Beta tester's backpack within the main game once said items have been thoroughly tested and added to the item schema for the main game. To further explain this concept, I'll make an example. There have been proposed buffs and nerfs floating around in the Beta for weapons like the Flamethrower and Tomislav for quite some time now, yet so far neither of the weapon's have received their proposed buff/nerf as of yet. What I propose is that anyone who participates in the Beta and provides feedback, will receive a special promotional versions of whatever weapons/items they have tested in their backpacks as soon as the proposed buffs/nerfs have been implemented in the main game. These special items will be labeled with a special quality, such as the existing Community quality or otherwise labeled as a new kind of quality, such as the Beta quality. (In other words, testers would receive a Community Flamethrower or Beta Tomislav in the main game once the proposed buffs/nerfs for said weapons had been implemented within the main game.) These items would be treated similarly to achievement items in the sense that they cannot be traded, and additionally cannot be gifted or crafted.

See? It's not really a huge or difficult to implement incentive, just a simple one that provides Beta testers with a free weapon every here and there with a special quality that acknowledges them as valued participants in the TF2 community. And in some cases, early access to newly introduced weapons.

In addition, a very special exclusive hat (similar to the Wiki Cap) could be implemented and rewarded to long-time participants of the TF2 Beta. Perhaps one that ranks up similarly to Strange Weapons the longer a tester participates in the Beta?

Anyway, it's up to Valve whether they want to take this suggestion or not. It's just a little idea that I came up with today while thinking about the Beta. If anyone has any further ideas or suggestions on how to improve on this concept, then please feel free to post them below. Blk Mage Ctype 13:16, 20 April 2012 (PDT)

The wiki is not the place for this discussion. This is better suited for the forums Balladofwindfishes 13:18, 20 April 2012 (PDT)

Split : Spine-Chilling Skull 2011

As we all know this Halloween Valve released 4 skull hats, The Spine-Chilling Skull 2011, The Spine-Tingling Skull, The Spine-Cooling Skull, and The Spine-Twisting Skull. While in the wiki they are all combined into 1 page. I believe we should split them because

• The information is too confusing, the reader has lost us long ago when we putted 4 different items in a page. which have different earning way, look, icon, name, time available, e.t.c.

• They are 4 different items - They look alike but they are still each item for his own. You don't see me put all the Ghastly Gibuses in one article.

• The page is way to big.

Beside that, our work is already done. Also if you could take a look I've linked you to the Spinge-Tingling Skull page I've already done to show you how much better and less confusing the page looks.

 Note I will take action if there will not be any reasonable negative comments in 5 days. Atlas 11:24, 21 April 2012 (PDT)

 Disagree. The main text has 3 paragraphs, 2 lines each. It is long just because of several painting schemas (maybe it is possible to hide them like some nav pages?). And all those 3 hats are in fact styles of one. There is almost nothing to write about each one of the hats, and instead, we'll have to repeat the same information (obtaining etc.) on every related page. — Stormbird ^T│C 11:38, 21 April 2012 (PDT)

 Disagree While they might behave like 3 different hats when crafted, the bought version still treats them as styles which can be switched around. And you can't deny that they are all the same skull, just with different horns. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 14:36, 21 April 2012 (PDT)

It's okay for the content to repeat sometimes. it does that often in the wiki. Beside I want someone to search for Spine-Tingling Skull and get the right information. I don't want him to buy a 3 styled hat instead of what he orignally wanted . Anyway we obviously need to clean the mess up with that page. Atlas 14:38, 21 April 2012 (PDT)

 Agree Similar circumstances as the various forms of the Ghastly Gibus (which all have their own page) Balladofwindfishes 14:42, 21 April 2012 (PDT)

 Agree Aside from that of the Spine-Chilling Skull 2011 wherein the separate hats are only considered styles, all crafted variants of the hat are indeed separate, so they should have their own separate pages. Blk Mage Ctype 11:53, 22 April 2012 (PDT)

 Agree and I talked this to death when the hats came out. No one was on my side at that point but I am in favor of four distinct articles (each of which clearly leads to the others). (Note, however, that this hat is not really the same as the Treasure Hat and the Ghastlier Gibus because those hats have a distinct appearance of their own. The Spine-Chilling Skull 2011 does not.) – fashnek _(talk·c) 17:08, 23 April 2012 (PDT)

 Disagree Quoting i-ghost in a previous discussion on this matter, "The page quite clearly states that "crafted versions of this hat will randomly select one of three styles and permanently lock itself, unable to change style. The hat will be named after the crafted style, counting as its own unique item." There's no need for redundant pages. The Gibus does not behave in the same way, so it's not comparable. The statement on the page makes it quite clear how the hat behaves; the extra pages add nothing of substance to the Wiki. Keep in mind that the ability to "downgrade" your treasure/bounty/houwar hat was patched in later, whereas these skulls are simply styles derived from one hat." tl;dr, the Spine-Tingling, Cooling and Twisting Skulls are the same item (Spine-Chilling Skull 2011) with only one style each. Comparing it to the Gibus is completely wrong, since they are "obtained" in different ways and act differently. Also, your reasons for splitting that article are too foggy.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 17:13, 23 April 2012 (PDT)

 Comment One thing to consider is the amount of images the page requires right now. It would be nice if we had all class galleries for all three styles, and in that case, that's 27 images right there, plus all three paint galleries and the page is looking a little bloated with images. Plus we are missing two backpack icons, which we do not have (despite them existing). That's a lot of images on one page, especially on a page where it can be avoided (unlike something like the Reggae hat). It may be redundant information wise (but this can be said for a lot of hats), but it seems odd to not have a page for these items and yet we have pages for the special Modest Pile of Hat that only has a badge on it marking its only difference from the Modest Pile. Technically, one line saying "There is also an identical version with a button on it called..." and that would serve the same function as separate pages. And yet we have separate pages for those items. A measure that was almost unanimously voted in favor of. Balladofwindfishes 15:44, 24 April 2012 (PDT)

Necromancy!

OK, you all saw this template sit on the previous version of this page for about 2 months. It gained mostly positive reactions but got paused when more important stuff (read: Mint/Eight painted hat images) needed doing. Well, I've finished it now, and made Hat and Misc versions of it, too.
In addition, the code has been split up and been made a LOT more streamlined.

• Original Weapon template
• New Hat template
• New Misc template

But wait, there's more! They also now support appending /(class name) to the end of the template (e.g. {{User:Rebmcr/Template:Weapon qualities checklist/scout}}), to produce a collapsed version of the template that is suitable for tucking under the navboxes at the bottom of articles. Like so: User:Rebmcr/Template:Weapon qualities checklist/scout All the templates still need some more optimising, and assuming no-one objects, I intend to move them into the main namespace in a few days, so as to allow me to strip a load of userspace code out of them and knock about 33% off the total filesize.
But that's not all! I'm also offering a bounty of 1 scrap for every mistake you can find in these templates. Note that one-off hats (e.g. Top Notch), one-off qualities (e.g. Vintage Companion Cube Pin), and glitches (e.g. Vintage Bill's Hat) are omitted intentionally. rebmcr 06:45, 23 April 2012 (PDT)

Do you think you could tweak the colors you're using right now? As it stands it's difficult for a deuteranopic colorblind user like myself to be able to effectively use this tool because of how the colors run together. You can see how it looks using this tool. ==Fax Celestis _talkcontrib^home 07:12, 23 April 2012 (PDT)

I see. That's a useful tool that I haven't seen before, thanks for the heads-up. I was already aware that colour is the primary identifier, however I made sure to include tooltips as reminders, in addition to keeping the position of each quality static for each item. Once it's in the main namespace, I might gain some performance overhead and be able to add a colourblind toggle - what would be a good set of colours to switch to? rebmcr 07:21, 23 April 2012 (PDT)

Try messing around with this thingy. I'm not versed well in how it works, but I've seen its use and it is effective. ==Fax Celestis _talkcontrib^home 09:00, 23 April 2012 (PDT)

Well, those are the colors shown in-game, so it's mostly Valve's problem. Also,  Support Forever.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 17:16, 23 April 2012 (PDT)

Valve does include a colorblind mode in TF2 as well. Look in the Adv. options. Failing that, how hard would it be to include a colorblind toggle on the template that would alter the colors? Worst case scenario, you need two templates; best case, you can build it into the main one and flip a switch. ==Fax Celestis _talkcontrib^home 08:07, 24 April 2012 (PDT)

 Info You know Pip boy and Wingstick are available at genuine quality ;) (sssh, I won't charge metal) , Polycount pin can be found in Community and Self-Made qualities (I suggest you do something similar to the one of the Wiki Cap) also Lugermorph. Frying Pan,Half-Zatoichi and Pain Train are multi-class weapons. Atlas 11:55, 24 April 2012 (PDT)

Weird, at first glance there is no reason that the Pip-Boy and Wingstick should not be showing as Genuine. I'll have to spend some time on it later. Thanks for the heads-up about the Polycount Pin. Previous version had consensus to fold-in multi-class wepons so I just left the Saxxy & Objector in the bottom section as special cases. rebmcr 06:35, 25 April 2012 (PDT)

 Pro I love it - it's simple and very understood able. Keep on the amazing work Atlas 11:55, 24 April 2012 (PDT)

 Support a big + from me. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 12:02, 24 April 2012 (PDT)

(-)- or (-)- or please make it only (-) ; right?

 -
  -
 
I think the last one should be the standard. Someone against it? Because when i see on the main class article a very different way of listing it and it should be used on all the same way with the same rules. Also this concerns me in a math way: " +100% fire damage vulnerability on wearer " < this looks so weird (-+). Like i talked with Asplode in the chat, the wiki people are clever and smart they will find a solution. To turn up the heat i will wait till Friday and after that post my own rulebook idea if no one has a solution, thanks. TheDoctor

 Agree And in cases like " +100% fire damage vulnerability on wearer " we could just use a red plus instead of a minus. burny 06:40, 24 April 2012 (PDT)

 Support Red plusses (plus-es? plus's? pli?) rebmcr 06:53, 24 April 2012 (PDT)

 Disagree What about negative + ones, (like Burny stated. They should all follow the same pattern IMO) or ones without a symbol (No random critical hits), or negative ones without a symbol already (25% explosive damage vulnerability on wearer), or cases where it would be really confusing (20 max health on wearer seems like the wearer will only have 20 health points when equipping it, 25% damage to self seems like you have a 75% protection against your own bombs. Plus, if this patterm was to be followed by   ones, 100% increase in turning control while charging would sound pointless if you had the same charge turn rate as before, or if you only had 6 max pipebombs out). All the three icons used for attributes --  ,   or   -- are only used to indicate if the attribute is positive, neutral or negative. These icons are representations of how the effect affects the player, not representations of plus/minus symbols.
Well, my biggest issue in this case is that these symbols are about whether the attribute called positive, neutral or negative by the game files, while "+" and "-" symbols in the attrib's text is solely about what it does. There are positive +'s, negative +'s, positive -'s and negative -'s, placed in the start or the end of the attribute; a "simple" color-changing icon wouldn't be of any help, as those two things are completely unrelated.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 11:05, 24 April 2012 (PDT)

 Disagree I wouldn't waste your time like Eric did, cause I think exactly like him. Atlas

• New  Suggestion It seems that perhaps a departure from the in-game wording might suit our purposes better. For example instead of "+100% fire damage vulnerability on wearer", instead we could put "Double fire damage vulnerability on wearer". It would be stupid to keep the misleading and ambiguous wording, just for the sake of mimicing the game. We are here to provide expanded information, not mirror what you can already find out by reading the backpack text. rebmcr 11:38, 24 April 2012 (PDT)

That's almost completely unrelated to the original disccusion, but still,  Support. If we want to cover info, we must make sure that info gets accross to the viewer, without any misinterpretations.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 14:25, 24 April 2012 (PDT)

• New  Suggestion How about something like this, the icon with out the plus or the minus wouldn't be misleading. burny 07:21, 25 April 2012 (PDT)
•  Comment Our listed attributes should match the games as closely as possible. The articles can explain the confusingness of Valve's wording. However, I'm pretty neutral on this, because the raw attributes will always be under the infobox anyway. Balladofwindfishes 13:20, 25 April 2012 (PDT)

Not in the general class pages ballad. That's what i just wanted to discuss. But we should just reward this difficult (-) + or (+) - with other words, yeah. Good suggestion, will work on that. TheDoctor 10:26, 30 April 2012 (PDT)

Sorting old undocumented notes

I've noticed on some newer patches with a lot of item changes: March 22, 2012 Patch, February 9, 2012 Patch we sort the undocumented changes in a way similar to how Valve structures lengthy patchnotes. This might be something worth doing for older, larger patches, as some are kind of scattered (September 30, 2010 Patch for example) and could use some nice organization. It's nothing major, but I know people are always looking for stuff to do, so this might be something worth doing, just making sure everything is nice and tidy. Balladofwindfishes 13:44, 26 April 2012 (PDT)

 Neutral That's okay, I guess, but I don't think that really needs to be done. As long as the message gets across to the readers, it's fine.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 15:03, 26 April 2012 (PDT)

 Comment It doesn't need to be done per-say, but we're at a point now where the English articles are basically complete as far as information is concerned. I hate to call it "busy work" but it seems that if it's just sitting there, unsorted and there's nothing left to do... might as well make the page a little neater and easier to read. Not anything people should put priority on though. Balladofwindfishes 15:47, 26 April 2012 (PDT)

 Comment I'd be willing to do it, only I wouldn't know how to do so as I am unfamiliar with Valve's method of sorting lengthy patch notes. (Suggestions?) Personally though, unless there's some server limit for patch notes that we're fast approaching, then I'd just as soon leave it as is. I'd rather the pages be filled with lengthy yet descriptive patch notes than condensed ones that leave out vital information for the sake of saving space. Cataloged data can't always be "clean" and attempting to keep a database of complete information neat and tidy is (in the long run) an exercise in futility. Blk Mage Ctype 10:21, 27 April 2012 (PDT)

 Comment You wouldn't be removing info, you'd just be sorting the undocumented changes that do exist, and putting them in a more organized fashion for readability. See the February 9, 2012 Patch for a good example of how that's done. Balladofwindfishes 04:55, 28 April 2012 (PDT)

 Support Ah! In that case, I can do this all quite easily and will gladly undertake the task. I've already done so for the Backburner page, so tell me what you think, and if it's to your liking, then I'll get to work on more pages immediately. Blk Mage Ctype 07:59, 28 April 2012 (PDT)

 Comment Well, I did make a nice edit for you before on the Backburner page as a sample, but someone went and edited/reverted it. ('-_-)

 Comment I meant on the actual patch pages: Like this Balladofwindfishes 17:01, 28 April 2012 (PDT)

 Comment Meh, in that case nevermind. I'm unfamiliar with those pages, and as such, probably wouldn't be well qualified to revise them. Blk Mage Ctype 04:53, 29 April 2012 (PDT)

Crate 43 stats are wrong

They don't add up to 100%. I'm not sure how to fix it, but it's definitely wrong. Sorry if this is the wrong section, first-time poster.