Team Fortress Wiki:Discussion

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Protecting class basic tips from tampering

I'm guessing a fair amount of new users make edits to the basic tips on the class pages that have to be undone. Maybe we should make subpages such as [[Class/tips]] that contain the basic tips and protect it with a reason like "Page has official, basic tips that should not be changed in any way". Even just including it as a separate page may turn away wikinoobs. I know List of official tips has been protected in the past for a similar reason, only really unprotected because those tips actually get updated. Toomai Glittershine 19:10, 23 October 2012 (PDT)

A simpler, and less restrictive (to actual editors--i.e. if it ever gets updated) solution would be to add __NOEDITSECTION__ to the section in question; thus it could only be edited from a general page edit. This would defer any casual editor; but can be circumvented by simply editing the entire page. Darkid (|) 19:13, 23 October 2012 (PDT)

Clarification: __NOEDITSECTION__ will remove all section edit links (i.e. [edit]) on the entire page—I'm still for this idea. Darkid (|) 20:00, 23 October 2012 (PDT)

Is it possible to have a page for those tips that are in consideration? This way people could submit tips they have found useful while playing for others to see. Or would that be just too much work? Lud1colo 18:19, 6 March 2013 (PST)

A bit of an old discussion. However, I feel you have missed the point of this section. The tips are not supposed to be edited. They are official! We have community strategy pages for user submissions. Darkid (|) 18:55, 6 March 2013 (PST)

{{dec}} and {{thou}}

There are several pieces of information in the Wiki that contain numbers and are used on all languages. However, in some cases, these numbers have "decimal" algarisms, or even "thousand" algarisms. There's no problem in using . for decimals and , for thousands in English, but for other languages, it's troublesome. European countries usually switch those two, Arabian countries have unique symbols... the list is long. So I've gone ahead and created {{dec}} and {{thou}} that will (try to) solve this issue.

Where would these templates be used? Well... For {{dec}}, mostly {{Weapon list}} and {{Dictionary/price}}. This last one is the most important one, as it is used across the entire Wiki, and it could easily be added by changing WindBOT's configs. As for {{thou}}, I don't know if there's any current use for it right now, as all thousands in the Wiki currently have no separators; maybe let it be until a use appears, or add these separators from now on?

Anyway, put your opinions/comments/suggestions/stuph.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 14:31, 2 January 2013 (PST)

 Support Why not, makes the place look even prettier. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 16:37, 2 January 2013 (PST)

 With reservations For a template that's going to be used on a lot of pages, and possibly going to be protected, I'd be happier to see: The use of {{documentation}}, and not the use of , but instead the contents of lang. I'm thinking {{#switch:{{SUBPAGENAME}} |en |#default = . |es = , etc etc. Darkid (|) 16:45, 2 January 2013 (PST)

+ support from Warlike, LiquidFire and SevenFiveSevenM from IRC (Ctrl+F [17:05:02])

 Done  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 15:25, 6 January 2013 (PST)

Sir EpicEric, can you tell me where this change happened? It's something that probably should be in use in Template:Decimal Align instead of the current hard coded hack from way back when, which is what Darkid described? --Org 09:02, 10 January 2013 (PST)

Nevermind, found it. (I can't read apparently)--Org 09:06, 10 January 2013 (PST)

Dueler time zone

I am from Romania and i want to know at what hour i get the Dueler hat, if the previous 24h i won the most duels. I'm not sure but i think that the hat is awarded at 00:00 in Australia. Please correct me if i'm wrong.--Mouglas36 04:02, 3 January 2013 (PST)

By most duels, do you mean you were highest ranked on your duel scoreboard (such as when you load a map)? Darkid (|) 08:50, 3 January 2013 (PST)

Mouglas36 I understand what you are trying to ask here, and well there is no specific article on the wiki (that I know of) that can explain precisely when the dueler hat ("awarded the following day to the player with the most duel wins in a given day"--Dueler), is awarded.

I had a look into this, and all I can say is since the Item drop system is reset "at approximately 00:00 Greenwich Mean Time (GMT)" then my hypothesis is that the dueler hat times are also based on the reset time of the item drop system, therefore assuming the dueler hat is awarded at 00:00 Greenwich Mean time (GMT) then in Rome (assuming you have the most duels within the past 24 hours) you should recieve it at 1am (Rome time +01:00). DLStrike 03:38, 22 January 2013 (PST)

I do not want to disappoint you, buddy, but Rome is not Romania. Irvitzer 09:11, 22 January 2013 (PST)

Romanian Time Zone is GMT +2, so just add an hour. (02:00 am,according to your hypothesis)

Yes I misread, it is +02:00, 2 am then DLStrike 15:08, 22 January 2013 (PST)

About the Hats page and the Post-expand include size...

Currently, the hats page has a picture and name and link for every single hat in the game. Unfortunately, each template for each class is approximately 200 kilobytes, and the ten of these (9 classes + all-class) comes dangerously close to the 2 Megabyte limit for the amount of text that can be transcluded by templates. So close, in fact, that the update history and other small templates on the page push it over. This issue cannot be fixed by removing those small templates, as there will be more and more and more hats. Of course. Since the issue is these 10 templates being on the same page, the only option I see is to have them broken up and put on separate pages. These pages would be linked to by the hats page, much like item quality does now. The other option is to get valve to increase this limit, but that is (unless they up it to 10 MB) only a temporary solution. Thoughts? Darkid (|) 16:30, 4 January 2013 (PST)

 Support It took too long to access the Hats page, even editing, I think move the List of all hats to another page is the best (Maybe do that on the Misc page too?) Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions) 17:17, 4 January 2013 (PST)

In regards to the misc page, we could put scout hats & misc on the same page... save some space. No increase in the template include size, as they're one template anyways. Darkid (|) 18:02, 4 January 2013 (PST)

 Support I don't think there are better options at this point without help from Valve which is not likely to happen — Wind 17:34, 4 January 2013 (PST)

 Support Seems like the best option ... but the Hat of the Week is staying put. I have spoken :P » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 17:50, 4 January 2013 (PST)

Hat of the week is a reasonably small template... smaller than update history iirc. Darkid (|) 18:02, 4 January 2013 (PST)

 Support Not much of a choice, huh. Also, this might be a nice opportunity to put hats and miscs for a single class together, so I  Support that, too.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 13:46, 18 January 2013 (PST)

 Support Seems like we pretty much have to. Blk_Mage_Ctype 12:22, 19 January 2013 (PST)

Festives Debate 2013

(protip: read this previous discussion)

Another Christmas, another batch of festive weapons, and this time they aren't all stock weapons. I now feel that the difference between a weapon and a festive weapon is much more significant and easier to show simply because they're not all stocks. Seeing as it has been many months since it was last talked about, I think we should discuss it again.

To start it off I think we should Separate articles of festive weapons and normal ones. Now, certain festives have different capabilities, and the distinction becomes clearer and more important. rZ 14:49, 6 January 2013 (PST)

I'm still all for treating "Festive" as an additional item quality - albeit one which makes the item visibly different (like Community, which adds the sparkle effect). Festive just adds lightbulbs, bows or wrapping paper. Whether the weapon is Strange or not is irrelevant. So we simply stick "This weapon exists in Festive quality" and add a picture / 3D model to the infobox, as usual.

However, we should consider that whatever the outcome of this discussion, the same rules that apply to Festive weapons should probably also apply to Botkiller weapons. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 15:24, 6 January 2013 (PST)

Third time for this. Ooookay... I still support a merge--for all the previous reasons. Unfortunately, as the 3d Models project is dying (not dead) in the water, (and the fact that it would force the same to be done of botkillers) it would put more stress onto a broken bridge than I'd like to. However, I don't see a feasible alternative. Darkid (|) 15:28, 6 January 2013 (PST)

I don't think there's much reason to duplicate an entire article (several times, if we are also doing Botkiller weapons) just for items with a different skin. Sure, there are some variations, but we can just add some infobox info (dunno, maybe "Strange (Festive)" where it suits best?). No need to give translators/editors/everyone even more work by separating everything when it's practically the same weapon.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 15:36, 6 January 2013 (PST)

 Disagree Well, looking to create an artcle for festive weapons by themselves is a good idea, and you make a good point that the sandvich can not be strange, where as the festive one can be, but on a seperate article there would be little else one may write about it. In the same article, maybe a section that is labled more clearer as "Festive" or "Festive Version", that way there is a distinction. In the section it can include information such as that the festive version can come in strange, and what crate to get it from, how it works the same way as the normal version of it etc. DLStrike 13:38, 16 January 2013 (PST)

 Nope.avi I don't feel that this is necessary since Festive weapons are for all intents and purposes just simple reskins of existing weapons that lack enough differences that set them apart to merit their own individual pages. Just add their 3D Models to their respective item pages alongside the default models at the top of the page and call it a day. Blk_Mage_Ctype 12:05, 18 January 2013 (PST)

Suggestion: Add 3D Models of 2012 Festive weapons to their respective articles.

We have rotatable 3D Models for weapons on their individual articles, but not for the Festive variants. Seeing as we have the "Nommed" versions of the Sandvich's 3D Model, it seems incredibly odd that we don't have the 3D Models of Festive weapons. I mean, if the simple model of the Sandvich with a bite taken out of it merits a place beside the default model, then shouldn't the far more significant Festive model be included as well? I propose that we add the 3D Models of Festive weapons to their respective articles, featured right alongside the "Default" model (and "Nommed" in the Sandvich's case) immediately. Blk_Mage_Ctype 17:16, 17 January 2013 (PST)

That's already in place, for the 2011 Festives at least. See Scattergun. I'm sure once the 3D model project picks back up the 2012 Festive 3D models will be made. COBALT 17:18, 17 January 2013 (PST)

Excellent! I didn't see that before, otherwise I wouldn't have posted this. However, hopefully this will encourage more people to contribute and help with the 3D Model Project, as so far progress has been quite slow. Blk_Mage_Ctype 09:18, 18 January 2013 (PST)

Hey I've just got a question, it might be a bit off topic, but where can I find a list of project pages such as the 3D models one, I know the link to the weapons demonstration project's link is always above each video on the wiki. I just wanted to know, so I can see what projects I can help out on, thanks in advance. DLStrike 15:05, 19 January 2013 (PST)

Tasks here and 3D Models Project here. And for your future reference, you can easily find the tasks page by clicking on "Help Out" near the top of the Main Page, located right beneath the Search bar. Blk_Mage_Ctype 17:13, 19 January 2013 (PST)

Should more incentives for user participation be added?

Maybe it's just me, but basic user participation seems to be at an all time low, specifically in categories such as Articles marked for open review. Granted that user discussion is but a small part of the Wiki, but it often results in vast improvements that otherwise would have never happened, so it disappoints me to see so little discussion going on. In addition, certain smaller articles such as Jiggle Bones and Self-illumination aren't updated as often as they should be or have enough people working on them. In fact, before I got involved, the Self-illumination table was severely lacking, and even now may be incomplete since I am not fully aware of all the items in the game that have Self-illumination applied to them. Furthermore, a number of high priority projects such as the 3D Models Project have stagnated. Granted that it is still Winter and these projects may pick up in the Summer time once school is out, but that's just conjecture at this point.

That said, perhaps we should consider adding more incentives for user participation? Nothing too fancy or extravagant like the Wiki Cap, but something smaller and more easily obtainable. Just a little trinket for those who have taken an active interest in the Wiki and it's improvement. For example, this has been on the Steam Workshop for awhile, and I think it's a pretty nice idea...

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=76228512

Just a plain little Badge for those who participate in the Team Fortress Wiki's improvement. Requirements for earning one should probably be similar to those of the Wiki Cap, but on a smaller scale. That way they're not too easy to obtain and require some commitment, but don't require the kind of extensive work that the Wiki Cap requires. Basically, it's something for the little guys. The folks who work hard to improve the Wiki, but don't have the kind of time or skill to obtain a Wiki Cap. Something to encourage more people to actively participate, and reward those who already have been participating. Blk_Mage_Ctype 08:13, 3 February 2013 (PST)

 Nope.avi If such an item were to exist, it would at least double the workload of staff members since we're the ones who review each and every person for a Wiki Cap already, which is reason enough for me to veto the idea outright. And if it were automated, it would be way too easy to abuse. The Wiki Cap itself, and the fuzzy happy feeling you get for making a positive net change to the Wiki, are already reward enough for contributing and participating. -- LordKelvin 09:44, 3 February 2013 (PST)

I disagree. If anything I imagine that your workload would remain mostly unchanged, since having a lesser reward would likely result in less undeserved Wiki Cap nominations for you to have to deny. Users would likely be a bit more conservative with their nominations for Wiki Caps, and opt for nominations of the Wiki Badge instead. Also, most people don't experience such a warm fuzzy feeling unless their work is acknowledged in some way, and seeing as the Wiki Cap and most of the currently existing Wikichievements are very difficult to earn, most of the little guys who make smaller yet still vital contributions to the Wiki go unnoticed and unacknowledged. Blk_Mage_Ctype 11:20, 3 February 2013 (PST)

That's not how it works.

Even if this Wiki Badge idea were to be somehow implemented (which is much harder than you'd think, since you'd have to get Valve on board for the idea), then we would still have to individually review every person nominated for a Wiki Badge, which would increase our workload considerably as it is. Even if you discount setting up the whole nomination system for the Wiki Badge, people will take it as a carte blanche to just nominate whoever they think is doing a "good job," especially if it's advertised as "for the little guy" as you want, which means that people will start nominating for all sorts of petty reasons and there will be an increase in dummy account nominations (which we already do have to deal with for the Wiki Cap). On top of that, people will then start using "this person has a Wiki Badge" as a reason for nominating for the Wiki Cap, even if they don't deserve it, which increases our workload on that end as well. The net result is that we end up with an extra system to take care of, with all the headaches to go with it, for a problem that doesn't seem to really exist.

If you're editing the Wiki with the end goal of getting a Wiki Cap, then perhaps your priorities are misplaced. The whole point of a Wiki is that it's a community project that is maintained and made better by the community for the sake of the community, the Wiki Cap in this case is an anomaly in that we see fit to thank the most valuable contributors in a visible way (mainly since this an official Wiki dedicated to a game where the developers continue to support it). Additionally, Wikichievements are made in such a way that any user can award them to any other user, it's just that not many people opt to award them anyways. -- LordKelvin 08:53, 4 February 2013 (PST)

I also would note that the category you cited (this) hasn't been updated in years--and most people don't know about it. If you look at the trafic through Category:Marked for deletion or Category:Requested moves, you will see the high traffic that there is on the wiki. The majority of the community is working with the new items that valve keeps adding, the community pages, etc etc. My judge of "active use" is Special:ActiveUsers, which stays consistently over 1000--at least 1000 edits (although the true number is closer to ~10,000) in the past 3 months. That's not stagnation. Darkid (|) 09:01, 4 February 2013 (PST)

The bazaar bargain page.

At the top of the page it reads: "This weapon features a specific bonus attuned to headshots. At the bottom-right of the screen, there is a head counter very similar to the Demoman's Eyelander. Upon spawning, the headshot counter is set to 0. As such, the zoomed charge rate of the weapon is 20% less than that of the Sniper Rifle. Upon the player successfully scoring a headshot, the charge rate of the next shot taken will be 10% faster."

However, the data given alongside it in the weapon infobox flatly contradicts this. Saying that the total charge time with 0 heads is 5.26 seconds (Compared to the stock 3.3) which is more like 63% of the normal speed, not 80%. But then, according to the graph, the bonus with each shot seems to be such that 1 heads is almost to normal speeds, and 2 is much faster, which means that the +10% per head second is also wrong. Does anyone want to look inside the game's data and see what's going on here? --Manta 08:55, 16 February 2013 (PST)

Change "Horošo!" to "Horosho!"

In Heavy voice commands and Heavy responses articles Russian word "Хорошо!" is romanized as "Horošo!". I suggest changing it to "Horosho!" for the following reasons:

1. š letter is not used in English alphabet
2. Wikipedia uses "sh" to romanize the "Ш" letter.
   Teyandee 11:13, 16 February 2013 (PST)

Need Help on translate these template

These template need some translate (include Upgrade Station template that I already post, but I post again because last time only few new language added), not quite sure how many token those need to translate.

• Template:List of medieval weapons
• Template:List of afterburn-inflicting weapons
• Template:List of modifiled fire damage weapons
• Template:List of damage vulnerability and resistance weapons
• Template:List of weapon styles
• Template:List of hat styles
• Template:List of misc styles
• Template:Upgrade station class
• Template:Upgrade station primary
• Template:Upgrade station secondary
• Template:Upgrade station melee
• Template:Upgrade station sapper
• Template:Upgrade station building
• Template:Upgrade station canteen

Thanks to everyone who helped. Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions) 06:37, 19 February 2013 (PST)

Fixed Template:List of afterburn-inflicting weapons link in the above comment. – Smashman _(talk) 08:54, 19 February 2013 (PST)

What should we do to Template:Promo nav

It's really pain to edit this template and look that where are items in the promo and that promo item is for which slot (Weapons/Hats/Misc). My opinion are :

• Split this template to 3 pages of templates (Weapons Promo nav, Hats Promo nav and Misc Promo nav)
• Split this template to 3 categories but still on single template (Cause a lot of size larger and ugh! to editors)
• Split this template to 2 pages of templates (Games Promo nav and Events Promo nav)
• Do nothing

I don't think do nothing is the best way. I think we should do somethings before this template grow larger and harder to edit. Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions) 07:11, 27 February 2013 (PST)

Least edited languages

So i got bored today, and i decided to see what languages on the wiki are least edited. So, today is 3rd March, 02:50 PST, and i used 500 changes on 30 days.

Results: Below, but i decided to post only language edits i managed to count.
7.zh-hans, 53 edits
6.no, 48 edits
5.hu, 45 edits
4.tr, 43 edits
3.pt (not pt-br!),41 edits
2.da, 31 edits
Aand number one is ar, with...16 EDITS!

As you can see, we need bigger community for the arabian tf2 wiki.
\theguy299\talk\contribs\ 02:50, 3 March 2013

In pt I only saw User:Lumpy3 as active editor, he said it really huge job due low editor in pt. Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions) 03:46, 3 March 2013 (PST)

A more useful metric is here, and that would put arabic, hungarian, danish, portuguese, and turkish as the most needed languages. However, this entire discussion is rather moot since translations are on a volunteer, not commission, basis. Darkid (|) 05:18, 3 March 2013 (PST)