Team Fortress Wiki:Discussion

create a new section

Supporting charities

How about the TF Wiki starts supporting charities? And with that I mean put up the HTML widget for the Humble Bundle? http://www.humblebundle.com/

I think it'd help them a lot, and it wouldn't hurt the Wiki in anyway. I have yet to see confirmation of that we're allowed to use the actual widget they provide, but I don't think Wolfire would mind it all that much.

Actual code is here, I'm e-mailing him as I type this. <iframe style="margin:0 auto; border:none;" src="http://www.humblebundle.com/_widget/html" width="410" height="150"></iframe> (source: http://blog.wolfire.com/2011/07/Introducing-Humble-Indie-Bundle-3)

Thoughts? --Mave 12:40, 31 July 2011 (PDT)

Great idea but it'll need Wiki Staff approval first. » Cooper Kid (Blether · Contreebs) 16:53, 31 July 2011 (PDT)

Without a doubt, of course. Any chance you could get the word out to them? I have no idea who to contact, hehe. --Mave 03:32, 1 August 2011 (PDT)

Almost everyone watches this page (editors & mods) so you'll probably get some more comments soon. I would first say that this doesn't seem that feasible on this site. IFrames are pretty dodgy, and they are also disabled by the software so that would not work out. If people agree to this, maybe we could link to humblebundle.com somewhere? seb26 03:51, 1 August 2011 (PDT)

All-Class emblem in navs

It would appear we don't really have a concrete idea of what to do here. For awhile we were using a question mark, but that looked just odd. Now we have a TF2 logo, but it still looks odd. Further, the icon is being removed from some templates and left on others, and it's being placed on some items but not others. Overall it's confusing and I think we need a direction so our navs don't have different styles going on between them. Personally, I think we should organize everything into class. Instead of having all the weapons organized by class in rows, and then all the hats scattered about, we should just throw the hats into the place we put the weapons, or create a second part of the nav for rows of class hats. No matter what we need a good idea of what all the navs need to look like, so we don't have various navs with different styles. Balladofwindfishes 09:44, 2 August 2011 (PDT)

 Comment I personally think that there should be neither question mark icon, nor tf2 logo, simply leave all class or multiple class items with no emblem. I also don't like the idea of splitting the navs into different rows, the navs are already massive enough as it is. MogDog66 00:52, 4 August 2011 (PDT)

 Comment In the recent Deus Ex Update, Valve has actually used the TF2 emblem as an all class icon, near the bottom. The Machina, Diamondback, Purity Fist, Widowmaker, Short Circuit and Nanobalaclava all use the icon of their TF2 class, while the Company Man and Dues Specs, both all class items, use the TF2 emblem. -- Hefaistus - talk 00:56, 20 August 2011 (PDT)

"Basic strategy" template

There was a nice template used on each class page to list the official basic tips (those shown during the map's loading), especially helpful to prevent people writing their own "tips".

While unfortunately it didn't prevent the manual addition of tips (as Seb26 stated here) nonetheless it was useful to quickly clean up the section. "Pyros are good allies. They can help remove Sappers from Buildings using the Homewrecker or the Maul." on the Engie's page is a good example.

Keeping that section clean will be a nightmare, just like the Trivia. Should we have it back? --Kid Of The Century 08:03, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

EDIT: Concept time. Feedback's welcome. --Kid Of The Century 01:39, 4 August 2011 (PDT)

EDIT 2: Seb26 suggested a way that could please everyone, and personally I approve that. Take a look below.--Kid Of The Century 01:37, 7 August 2011 (PDT)

 Yes. How about adding all official tips (for every language) and then protect it? When new tips are added, just unprotect it, add them, and protect it again. SackZement (Talk) 08:12, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

 Comment Any way it could be made into a table, and then just protect the table from editing? Balladofwindfishes 08:15, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

Well, I guess so. We should come up with a proper layout though, just using the usual table model for a list might look bad.--Kid Of The Century 01:20, 4 August 2011 (PDT)

 Oppose You said it yourself: "Keeping that section clean will be a nightmare". The instant you put up tips, ever Tom, Dick and Harry thinks to themselves "I HAVE THE BEST TIP" and they go to add it. It's annoying to keep clean and you can't really blame them for adding their stuff. Even then, the tips don't really add anything to the page. Their only distinction is that they're in the game. Anything worth saying about any given weapon has very likely been said in its respective Community Strategy page. -- - _{(talk | contribs)} -- 01:50, 4 August 2011 (PDT)

I'm not really sure what you're talking about: are you suggesting we should just scrap the section altogether? I personally wouldn't, but it'd be better than keep that mess. --Kid Of The Century 02:47, 4 August 2011 (PDT)

As i said, it will not be a nightmare if we protect the template. SackZement (Talk) 03:51, 4 August 2011 (PDT)

 Neutral – I think the basic strategy tips should probably be copied to the dictionary (to prevent duplication of certain lines, for example the "Press E for Medic" line which appears on each page), but it is not a good idea to simply protect the page to stop people from adding things. {{Basic strategy}} was made like this last time and for months there were translations being made on the talk page because the page was protected. Protection doesn't work as well as it sounds and it will stop valid edits from translators (and not just people wanting to add their own tips). A better solution would to simply have each line in the dictionary, each set of lines in the dictionary (to avoid a #switch with Scout, Soldier, etc) and then on each page add {{Basic strategy}} again. seb26 00:14, 5 August 2011 (PDT)

 Comment. I support this dictionary idea. Let's see if people find their way through to add custom tips. SackZement (Talk) 00:30, 5 August 2011 (PDT)

 Agree I don't know how this dictionary thing actually works, but probably this is the best suggestion to please everyone. While at it, I'd suggest also to rename the section from "Basic Strategy" to "In-game tips" to better specify that the section is for official tips only.--Kid Of The Century 01:35, 7 August 2011 (PDT)

New Section Suggestion

I think that we should add a new section to the wiki front page, it would be small and would show "This month 1 year ago" "This month 2 years ago" and would show a small summary of important things that happened in Team Fortress 2 at that time. Such as "This month 2 year ago... The classless update was released. The Classless Update was the first non-class specific major update. The content focus of the update differed from previous updates; instead of introducing new weapons or achievements, the Classless Update added new hats, game modes and maps, while also delivering a large number of bug fixes and minor tweaks to existing gameplay."

I am open to suggestion and I hope that people like my idea. Chef Tony 04:14, 5 August 2011 (PDT)

Quite like this idea, but id want to see it in either side panels or boxouts rather than in main text. -- Swarfega  T  C  10:14, 5 August 2011 (PDT)

Might be tough to maintain manually, but a little database and a bot might handle it okay. Certainly worth considering. -RJ 10:18, 5 August 2011 (PDT)

I personally don't think it would be that high maintenance as you think. I was able to get information on 1 and 2 years in about 5 minutes. Chef Tony 10:27, 5 August 2011 (PDT)

I agree, if it only changes monthly it shouldn't be too hard to add some interesting information manually. Balladofwindfishes 15:35, 6 August 2011 (PDT)

Availability for stock weapons

As suggested by User:Balladofwindfishes on the IRC channel, should we start putting "Uncrate" on the stock weapons infoboxes?  –  Ohyeahcrucz [T][C] 16:55, 6 August 2011 (PDT)

Technically a Shotgun and Pistol are uncrateable. Personally, I think "uncrate" and then a tooltip about it being a strange weapon might be worth considering. Balladofwindfishes 16:55, 6 August 2011 (PDT)

I am in favor of "Uncrate: Yes (tooltip this is uncratable in strange form) et cetera --SilverHammer 17:45, 6 August 2011 (PDT)

Quakecon nav box

Other promotional's such as grordbort victory pack have nav boxes. So why can't this promotion have a nav box? should it? - Lexar - talk 17:44, 8 August 2011 (PDT)

Well, with the QuakeCon update, we aren't getting a multitude of items, like with Dr.Grordbort's Victory Pack, we are only getting The Original. So, that's why there is not navigation box. TheTimesAndQueriesOfMyAss 17:46, 8 August 2011 (PDT)

Plus the Pip-Boy, Tamrielic Relic, Wingstick, Anger.  –  Cructo [T][C] 17:49, 8 August 2011 (PDT)

The update wasn't much different than the Summer Sale, which has a nav. I fully agree the update should have a nav, it added a bunch of content related to a specific event (QuakeCon) which is basically similar to the Summer Sale with slightly less items and a shorter sale. Balladofwindfishes 17:51, 8 August 2011 (PDT)

Here is what it would look like (excuse the title its not in the dictionary because it hasn't got a page of its own).

I may have forgotten a few thing in it. The main idea is that we can get a nav box. change the colors all you like, this is just a basic layout. - Lexar - talk 18:14, 8 August 2011 (PDT)

Something about that seems scattered and unorganized, which is kind of funny since it's organized just like any other nav. Balladofwindfishes 18:35, 8 August 2011 (PDT)

I don't think a nav box is necessary or warranted; the Dr. Grordbort nav box makes sense since it was content that was created specifically for TF2 that is independent of anything else and was its own update, while some of the promo items from the most recent sale are from games that weren't even part of the QuakeCon package (they just happened to be on sale) at the same time). Given that, the Original is really the only real promo item, and that does not warrant a nav box of its own. ButteredToast 11:28, 9 August 2011 (PDT)

All items included were part of the QuakeCon event. The promo wasn't just for the package. On the wiki, we shouldn't make the call on what is a "real" promo or not. The fact remains the items are all promo items that all fit under a very specific theme. Such a criteria is also why we have the Summer Camp Nav and Shogun Nav Balladofwindfishes 11:30, 9 August 2011 (PDT)

I have to agree with TheTimesAndQueriesOfMyAss; the other games that happened to be on sale (such as Brink and From Dust) weren't necessarily part of the package, and just happened to be on sale at the same time as the QuakeCon package (and had promotional items). Steam has sales on software all the time, but not every sale warrants a nav box. ButteredToast 12:14, 9 August 2011 (PDT)

Nobody was talking about putting the From Dust promo into a nav. Brink was a major part of the QuakeCon sale and had an entire day dedicated to it, plus free DLC launched just for it. Brink was also made by Bethesda, who had the majority of the promos items and ad space during the event. And for the record, we do have navs for every major sale (as this was) tied to promo items. Both the Steam treasure hunt and Summer Sale have navs including their items. We don't need navs for midweek madness or daily deals, but the Quakecon sale was a massive sale that spanned 5 days and was directly related to a special event. All the promos added last friday were released for the purposes of that event. Balladofwindfishes 12:18, 9 August 2011 (PDT)

The point I was making with the From Dust reference is the fact that there can be sales of other things (that include promo items) that go on at the same time that aren't necessarily included in a sale or set; you even acknowledged this yourself after I made the point, but won't hold the other games or promo items to the same standard despite the fact that they weren't all part of the same package. That aside, just because something was "done before" does not necessarily mean that it is correct or should be continued; a lot of things that are done on a Wiki are typically done because someone else did it or some variation of it before, but it does not always serve as an ample justification or precedent. ButteredToast 13:32, 9 August 2011 (PDT)

Wikifier

Hello everyone! For more than 1 month, the wikifier script has helped the Russian Team to write articles. It a button that appears on the edit page, that calls a script when clicked. When you click the button, the Wikifier script fixes common mistakes in the article (the button only shows in the wiki editor, and you can preview what it does). For example, it puts the correct russian quotes («...» and “...” inside them), the right spaces after and before punctuation symbols (It will replace “Здравствуй , сударь ! ” by “Здравствуй, сударь!”), and fix wiki and HTML marking, etc. It is like WindBOT working in your browser. Wind and I want to make this script global. To do this, I need to know what do you, localization teams, want it to do? Can you tell me some your language-specific punctuation and typographic rules? Common mistakes that editors in your language do? --Daniil 23:58, 14 August 2011 (PDT)

 Support I like dis new weapon :3 — Wind 00:02, 15 August 2011 (PDT)

 Support This is good applicable to the german language. SackZement (Talk) 01:15, 15 August 2011 (PDT)

 Support Very good idea. The Spanish team would certainly see benefit to the Wikifier. BiBi 04:11, 15 August 2011 (PDT)

 Support Iz Really Good ! Especialy when french punctuation adds spaces where other languages doesn't ! I approve of this, it sure will be useful for every localisation. Tturbo _{( / )} 08:48, 15 August 2011 (PDT)

• Okay. Here we go. Local teams, please read your local discussion. --Daniil 13:20, 17 August 2011 (PDT)

New update?

I just got the typical "Steam has finished downloading Team Fortress 2" message. No, I did not recently start reinstalling TF2. I do believe an update has occurred, gentleman. Why has nobody said anything about this yet? 404 User Not Found 15:00, 15 August 2011 (PDT)

Oh special, my TF2 is crashing on load now. What did Valve do now? 404 User Not Found 15:00, 15 August 2011 (PDT)

Because it just patched, be more patient we don't get thing done before we know when they happen. Also, I doubt this is appropriate discussion, of course updates are going to happen. - nixshadow (t|c) 15:02, 15 August 2011 (PDT)

Yeah, it's totally appropriate discussion. No two ways about it....or however that saying goes... 404 User Not Found 15:03, 15 August 2011 (PDT)

If it was this page would be filled with over 100 topics about 9 mb updates. - nixshadow (t|c) 15:04, 15 August 2011 (PDT)

.....Touche. 404 User Not Found 15:06, 15 August 2011 (PDT)

Getting item contributors involved: The Concept and Design section

So I was looking around the Wiki and right now we're basically set with gameplay stuff on the English pages. This site is packed to the brim with weapon stats, paint images, etc. And those are great! But a lot of people, myself included, like to know more about the design of TF2 and the items in it. I've already started to outreach with the groundwork of this idea by collecting concept art from contributors, but I feel we can go further. Right now we have some trivia elements like "this item was originally named blah blah and had blah blah as a texture" and for many article, that's okay. But many, many items have much longer, more detailed designs behind them. The Tomislav for example, went through 3 or 4 revisions (which we have images of, we have pages of critiques from others on the item). In March the contributor was contacted by Valve stating they wanted the item in the game. The creator is the youngest contributor of TF2 items ever, and this is a fact Valve has toted. A nice bunch of paragraphs could easily be written outlining the development history of Tomislav. And then there's the Shogun pack. There's an entire history of that shogun pack hidden deep in Kritzkast's archives that we only start to mention. Stuff like Sega contacting all of the polycount winners and Laro being the only one to actually respond. Sega specifically wanting Geisha hair for medic.

This also ties in with another problem I noticed. We have this large group of people who directly own a portion of this game, and are easily approachable, and yet we neglect this wealth of information that could easily fill up interesting sections. All these contributed hats and weapons lacking any sort of meaningful trivia, despite the creator standing right there, ready to be contacted and asked questions.

Obviously not every page would need such a section, but for many items, the story of the item is just not nearly as interesting in one line of trivia. I feel like as a TF2 wiki, we can remain true to the gameplay of the game while still adding things people would expect and find interesting on a wiki. Outside of game stories.

Right here is the Shiv article redone with the new section and removed redundant design trivia.

Please think about this a bit before just saying no. This is something not many game wikis have the luxury of doing. We're unique in that we have the community who designs large portions of the game and are easily approachable. Let's not ignore that resource. Balladofwindfishes 18:30, 16 August 2011 (PDT)

 Support We need stuff like that, makes the article more interesting.  –  Cructo [T][C] 18:37, 16 August 2011 (PDT)

 Neutral It's an interesting idea, but I think that it would be useful to canvass (I can use buzzwords too! ;)) the community, perhaps using the Steam Fora initially, in order to gauge the level of interest. If there is community support, then that would indicate that the content would be of interest and would be worth compiling. --- Esquilax 18:39, 16 August 2011 (PDT)

I can ask Facepunch, Polycount and SUF and feel out the interest, if more people think this is an issue. FP/Polycount might be valuable places to gauge interest on a contributor level, especially since that's where 99% of the information for the section would come from. Balladofwindfishes 18:41, 16 August 2011 (PDT)

 SupportI second the notion of getting contributers more involved. The developement of the games items etc. is just as, if not more, interesting as the gameplay ****BC^talk 18:43, 16 August 2011 (PDT)

 Comment Daimao and Nzdjh both thought it was a good idea, plus Political Gamer seems interesting in getting map contributors on board. Balladofwindfishes 06:17, 17 August 2011 (PDT)

Well, here's a Sandbox of my idea, with the Shiv written out. The Shiv is nice because it's got a good source of development history. Here is the Shiv article redone with the new section and removed redundant design trivia. Balladofwindfishes 08:14, 17 August 2011 (PDT)

 Support I found that very interesting to read and don't think it detracted from the article at all. However, I think the positioning of the section was a bit off, I think it may be better if the section was moved to below say the Achievements section? I feel it's more important to have all the information relevant to actual gameplay presented first, before a section on the item's history is presented. -Mr. Magoolachub 19:12, 17 August 2011 (PDT)

Alright, I changed up the order a bit, does lit look better now? Balladofwindfishes 11:29, 17 August 2011 (PDT)

Much better :D -Mr. Magoolachub 19:12, 17 August 2011 (PDT)

I'm hesitant to begin working on more though, I'd really like some more input. Balladofwindfishes 09:21, 18 August 2011 (PDT)

The section, revised. Fixed some inaccuracies, moved information around to make it flow better. If anyone wants to proofread this as well, by all means, proceed. maggosh 10:14, 18 August 2011 (PDT)

Wow Maggosh, you knocked it out of the park! Balladofwindfishes 12:21, 18 August 2011 (PDT)

Why thank you. maggosh 06:42, 19 August 2011 (PDT)

Hat levels in articles

With recent update we got an ability to see hat levels in-game. But we still have "Level 1-100" in articles (unless this is a special case). I suggest change this to "Level 1-100 Hat" where possible. DrAkcel ^{(T | C)} 00:28, 19 August 2011 (PDT)

This can be changed in {{Item infobox}} so that hats with no other specific levels can be displayed as "Level 1-100 Hat". I'll edit this now so people don't have to edit every hat page. seb26 03:19, 19 August 2011 (PDT)

Ok  Done seb26 03:33, 19 August 2011 (PDT)

Added Team Fortress skins removed

Today I edited all of the skins from Team Fortress to make them presentable (They are the actual skins from the model, the game shows only whats in the UV map, however it is still shown in the skin), and after getting permission on the IRC, to upload them, I proceeded to do so and then edited the page to include the newly uploaded images.

They were removed unfortunately. I'm unsure why, as Team Fortress Classic images are there, as well as Team Fortress 2 images, so why not Team Fortress as well?

Thank you.

TeamXlink 10:30, 19 August 2011 (PDT)

Only your Sniper image on the Sniper page was removed... they're still on all the other pages so I guess you can put it back for sake of consistency. -RJ 11:09, 19 August 2011 (PDT)

"Added new Weapon:" Or "Added Weapon:"

I've noticed an inconsistency in the update history of the classes. Sometimes it will say "Added new Weapon:" other times it will say "Added Weapon:".

Which should I be using?

Thank you.

TeamXlink 10:31, 19 August 2011 (PDT)

The great Wiki clock!

Hey guys. Check out the clock at the top of the page at The Portal Wiki. Do you guys think this is worth implementing on the TF Wiki? The difference being instead of displaying UTC, it would display PDT as PDT is the timezone used for talk-page signatures; this would give a quick reference point when seeing how long ago a comment was added - useful for users in timezones other than PDT.

Bear in mind this can be implemented per-user via a user's User:SomeUser/vector.js file. This discussion's whether or not it should be implemented site-wide. Yay or Nay? -RJ 15:07, 19 August 2011 (PDT)

 Yes I suggested it, bcuz I love it. -RJ 15:07, 19 August 2011 (PDT)

 No Unneeded. You can just check your clock.  –  Cructo [T][C] 15:08, 19 August 2011 (PDT)

 No The .01 seconds it takes to look at the bottom right of my monitor will continue to suffice. SS2R 15:10, 19 August 2011 (PDT)

 Comment Consider that not everybody's time-zone is PDT. I'm UTC - I'd have to go and find out how many hours back PDT is and then invent math. This would provide the same reference your clock does for users in other timezones. -RJ 15:12, 19 August 2011 (PDT)

I can't see any reason why it's important to know when a response was made on a talk page. The important things are WHO responded and what the beef is of what they say. I could care less if they said it at 12:01am or 4:16pm. SS2R 15:20, 19 August 2011 (PDT)

 Oppose I don't like that clock >: It changes every second, which attract my eyes to there, thus distracts me from the article. And no I'm not in the PDT time zone either — Wind 18:53, 19 August 2011 (PDT)

 Comment I don't like the clock, but i find cache purging very useful DrAkcel ^{(T | C)} 00:43, 20 August 2011 (PDT)

 Neutral I like bells and whistles as much as the next guy, but I don't think I'd miss it if it weren't there. -- - _{(talk | contribs)} -- 06:39, 20 August 2011 (PDT)

 Yes Great idea. Plummaster 06:41, 20 August 2011 (PDT)

 Support "What was that, Sandvich? Put a clock? Good idea!" Now seriously: most members probably never thought of it, but have you tried keeping track of long discussions on talk pages? Specially when they have no signature, people place signatures without ~~~~ etc? It's tough as hell. Specially when you're trying to place {{unsigned}} templates and such. Also, I keep a list of translations to be done for PT-BR, and you have no idea how hard it is to place time marks without having a perfectly synched built-in computer clock compared to the Wiki clock, which is shared by all members. Most of you might not even notice these stuff, but they do make the difference on active discussions.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 08:44, 20 August 2011 (PDT)

 No – a clock thing on recent changes would be OK but I think it would be annoying on every page and especially to readers who probably won't find it that useful. I also have my own utc clock already :3 seb26 15:20, 20 August 2011 (PDT)

 Oppose Unnecessary, and easily overlooked even if implemented. coreycubed / talk 07:15, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

Tournament Medals article seperation

Currently the Tournament Medal pages have a shared page for all ranks of medals. It would probably be best to separate them, but I'm going to go ahead and take a consensus on if this should be done, and if so, should it be done now, or when the medals are released? - nixshadow (t|c) 02:50, 20 August 2011 (PDT)

 Support We have separate pages for Duel badges and ID badges, so, i don't see any reason we created only one page for these DrAkcel ^{(T | C)} 02:52, 20 August 2011 (PDT)

 Oppose I'm against it, but only because I prefer the opposite action take place. I think that the Dueling Badges and 119th medals should have been consolidated into just two respective pages. That said though, I'm still somewhat opposed to it because it would mean creating a ridiculous number of nearly identical pages for the sake of consistency. There are 10 UGC medals, 3 GWJ medals and 4 ETF2L medals; that's 17 new pages all nearly identical pages created. I'm not against it just because it's a lot of work (which admittedly someone else will do), but because I can't fathom how the Wiki would benefit in any way from it. Who's really going to say: "Thank God for this separate article. Now I know what these two slightly different silver-coloured UGC badges look like and can compare them side-by-side"? So, I say no. Anyone going solely for consistency might want to consider instead consolidating the other badge pages. -- - _{(talk | contribs)} -- 07:21, 20 August 2011 (PDT)

 Oppose Alex2539 said pretty much everything I wanted to say. 17 practically identical pages is counter-productive. I would also support the merging of the duelling badges and 119th medal articles. —Moussekateer·talk 12:15, 20 August 2011 (PDT)

 Oppose – there is nothing different at all about any of the new medals apart from their picture, and these are noted in the gallery section. 17 new pages for the sake of 'consistency' is a waste of time and effort seb26 15:20, 20 August 2011 (PDT)

 Oppose, for the earlier mentioned reasons by Alex2539, plus a new one; I am a translator. I am not particularly inclined into having to basically translate the same page 17 times. When you can copy paste a page from another page and change just the names and a sentence, you know that they are better off merged. Like Moussekateer, I'd also support the merger of the duelling badges and the 119th medal articles. Additionally, I'd also like to see the propaganda hats remerged again with their normal counterparts. Sometimes less is just more. -- Hefaistus - talk 03:55, 21 August 2011 (PDT)

New paint table

I created a new version of Paint can table, that can be seen here User:DrAkcel/Sandbox2. The main template is here. Any comments on this? DrAkcel ^{(T | C)} 09:00, 21 August 2011 (PDT)

 Oppose I like the overall design of the table, but it doesn't fit the schema used on other pages (color, formentioned design). real_alien (T/C) 09:05, 21 August 2011 (PDT)

TF2 Crafting Tool

Roebuck5996 11:20, 21 August 2011 (PDT)

Hey I'm new to the wiki and just trying to throw an idea out there. I don't know how we could get this to fully work but ill just see if the idea attracts anyone.

Alright, so basically an online crafting tool. When new updates come out and the recipes are trying to be found, why not have an online crafting tool where you can test different recipes without wasting your precious guns on tokens or angering yourself by not having the certain gun it could need to craft. There might be a crafting tool online, but adding one that could be used in the wiki would be very convenient. Just another reason to visit the wiki.

I'm just throwing this idea out there. Any feedback would be appreciated!

Thanks!

-Roebuck5996

Every recipe can be seen in item schema, so we have no need to "waste" metal. DrAkcel ^{(T | C)} 11:11, 21 August 2011 (PDT)

Hello. First, please sign your posts with ~~~~. Second, there's one here. Third, this is not what the Wiki is about.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 11:12, 21 August 2011 (PDT)

(Hopefully im editing this right this time.) DrAkcel, im saying this could be used to figure out the recipes before they are published to the wiki, so they could be found quicker and put on the site quicker. Eric sorry about not signing the post, I'm new to the wiki and was not aware, also the site you posted is not loading for me for some reason. It was just a suggestion and I thought that it would fit in with the site, sorry about the misinterpretation.Roebuck5996 11:20, 21 August 2011 (PDT)

You can use Will It Craft? for this purpose as well. Hope that helps :) coreycubed / talk 08:00, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

I see what you're getting at, but the crafting recipes haven't needed to be "found" for a while now. Ever since the March 15, 2011 Patch every recipe is listed within TF2 on the crafting screen as soon as they are available. Instead of guessing, all we need to do is check the recipe list in-game when an item is added or made craftable. A tool like this would indeed have been useful at one time, but not anymore. -- - _{(talk | contribs)} -- 12:43, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

Standards for identical items

Looking through certain character's weapon lists (eg. Demoman + Pyro's melee slot), it is very messy when you consider that half of the weapons are identical (Eyelander = HHHT = Nessie's 9 Iron, Bottle = Frying Pan = Saxxy etc.). For example, the demoman's melee page:

Weapon	Kill Icon	Ammo Loaded	Ammo Carried	Damage Range	Notes / Special Abilities
Stock Bottle		N/A	N/A	Base: 65 Crit: 195	The Bottle will break upon a successful Critical hit (purely cosmetic feature).
Unlock Eyelander		N/A	N/A	Base: 65 Crit: 195	Has 37% longer melee range.  Every killing blow decapitates the enemy, increasing its head counter. Every head taken raises user's speed (7.5%) and health points (15) to a maximum of 4 times each life.  Lowers maximum health by 25 points.  No random Critical hits.
Craft Pain Train		N/A	N/A	Base: 65 Crit: 195	Doubles capture power for points and carts.  Raises bullet vulnerability by 10%.
Craft Scotsman's Skullcutter		N/A	N/A	Base: 78 Crit: 234	Has 37% longer melee range.  Deals 20% more damage.  Lowers speed by 15% on wearer.
Promotional Frying Pan		N/A	N/A	Base: 65 Crit: 195	Same as the Bottle's attributes.
Craft Horseless Headless Horsemann's Headtaker		N/A	N/A	Base: 65 Crit: 195	Halloween item.  Same as the Eyelander's attributes.
Craft Claidheamh Mòr		N/A	N/A	Base: 65 Crit: 195	Has 37% longer melee range.  Charge duration is increased by 0.5 second.  Decreases max health by 15.  No random Critical hits.
Craft Ullapool Caber		N/A	N/A	Base: 35 + 149 1 Crit: 105 + 300 1	On hit the grenade's 'head' will explode dealing melee damage to the enemy and explosive damage to the user and all enemies around him. The explosion can be triggered also by hitting solid parts of the map and will launch the user upward. Afterwards, it will show signs of damage and will be able to deal only the melee damage and won't explode again until the user respawns or visits a resupply cabinet.  No random Critical hits.
Promotional / Craft Half-Zatoichi		N/A	N/A	Base: 65 Crit: 195	On kill, restores the player to full health.  This weapon is Honorbound and once drawn cannot be sheathed until it kills.  A single successful hit will kill an enemy wielding the same weapon.
Distributed Saxxy		N/A	N/A	Base: 65 Crit: 195	Limited item from the Replay Update.  Killed enemies freeze into solid Australium statues (purely cosmetic feature).
Craft Persian Persuader		N/A	N/A	Base: 65 Crit: 195	Halves the time required to recharge a charge.  No random Critical hits.  All ammo collected converts into health.
Craft Nessie's Nine Iron		N/A	N/A	Base: 65 Crit: 195	Same as the Eyelander's attributes.

The line "Same as the ....'s attributes." is not very uncommon. It is obvious that there are clones, and thus I don't think that they should be treated as different objects, especially when treating them as the same causes visual clutter and, in my opinion, makes suggestions that aren't applicable. In combat of this, I propose something like this:

Weapon	Kill Icon	Ammo Loaded	Ammo Carried	Damage Range	Notes / Special Abilities
Stock Bottle		N/A	N/A	Base: 65 Crit: 195	The Bottle will break upon a successful Critical hit (purely cosmetic feature).
Promotional Frying Pan
Distributed Saxxy					Limited item from the Replay Update.  Killed enemies freeze into solid Australium statues (purely cosmetic feature).
Unlock Eyelander		N/A	N/A	Base: 65 Crit: 195	Has 37% longer melee range.  Every killing blow decapitates the enemy, increasing its head counter. Every head taken raises user's speed (7.5%) and health points (15) to a maximum of 4 times each life.  Lowers maximum health by 25 points.  No random Critical hits.
Craft Horseless Headless Horsemann's Headtaker1
Craft Nessie's Nine Iron
Craft Pain Train		N/A	N/A	Base: 65 Crit: 195	Doubles capture power for points and carts.  Raises bullet vulnerability by 10%.
Craft Scotsman's Skullcutter		N/A	N/A	Base: 78 Crit: 234	Has 37% longer melee range.  Deals 20% more damage.  Lowers speed by 15% on wearer.
Craft Claidheamh Mòr		N/A	N/A	Base: 65 Crit: 195	Has 37% longer melee range.  Charge duration is increased by 0.5 second.  Decreases max health by 15.  No random Critical hits.
Craft Ullapool Caber		N/A	N/A	Base: 35 + 149 2 Crit: 105 + 300 2	On hit the grenade's 'head' will explode dealing melee damage to the enemy and explosive damage to the user and all enemies around him. The explosion can be triggered also by hitting solid parts of the map and will launch the user upward. Afterwards, it will show signs of damage and will be able to deal only the melee damage and won't explode again until the user respawns or visits a resupply cabinet.  No random Critical hits.
Promotional / Craft Half-Zatoichi		N/A	N/A	Base: 65 Crit: 195	On kill, restores the player to full health.  This weapon is Honorbound and once drawn cannot be sheathed until it kills.  A single successful hit will kill an enemy wielding the same weapon.
Craft Persian Persuader		N/A	N/A	Base: 65 Crit: 195	Halves the time required to recharge a charge.  No random Critical hits.  All ammo collected converts into health.

This has practical applications for all classes, particularly the scout, pyro, engineer, soldier and demoman. I realise that the fact that the HHHT has a giant name makes them both look rather unaesthetic. Nevertheless, it is still an improvement.

The way items would be grouped would be primarily, the unique weapons would be arranged in order of release date. All weapons which fall under the category of "clone" would then be tucked into its position. This point is relatively questionable, as it is understandable for the newest weapons to be at the bottom, regardless of their (non)unique nature. Perhaps initially, new clones start at the bottom before moving into its correct position after a new update.

Obviously, alongside a change like this, questions regarding what really makes an item identical (eg. is the Saxxy the same as the default melee weapon? Is the amputator the same as the bonesaw?) Before moving onto questions like these however, public opinion must be in favour. Start supporting! DVDV 00:40, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

By the way, if this goes ahead, I want to implement it. I want a hat :P DVDV 01:42, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

 All the way!. its a lot better then for example to maul description "see homewrecker" either copy paste or group them, don't make things more tedious. This is why i agree with this change. - Lexar - talk 00:34, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

 Support I like the way this looks, it makes sense to group what are essentially the same items together. -Mr. Magoolachub 00:36, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

 Neutral Pros are obvious, but I find the lack of a chronological order disturbing *force grip*. Either to have a cake or eat it. real_alien (T/C) 00:55, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

Don't forget that it still retains some chronology. If you look at the second last paragraph, it's still retained as a secondary sorting method. Don't forget that the date in which the weapon came out is shown on its page. For those looking for new weapons, I made a suggestion which could be used in order to find the more recent weapons.DVDV 01:42, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

 Support non-redundancy > chronological order SackZement (Talk) 01:04, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

 Support Looks way better and more organised. Flamedrac0 07:03, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

 Support And here I was all set to complain about two massive tables on the talk page. That is really cool and how it probably should have been done from the beginning. coreycubed / talk 07:19, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

 Support This does look alot better than the current layout, it also groups the same kind of items together, i like!! T-Wayne 09:41, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

 Support Looks a lot more organized, and it would separate the clone weapons from the ones that are different rather well. -- 10:11, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

 Support Like what others have said, this looks more organized and there's really no reason I can think of not to implement it. RagnarHomsar 15:38, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

 Probably While it doesn't make sense as alphabetical/"regular" chronological orders would, it's a lot easier to see, examine, and compare.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 15:46, 22 August 2011 (PDT)

I'm gonna :  Disagree because it's awkward to look at. A jumbled mess. However, I would be able to  Support a sorter that defaults to release order. --SilverHammer 21:26, 22 August 2011 (PDT)