Team Fortress Wiki:Discussion

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PlayStation Button Templates

Hey. I had a look on the Taunts page, realizing a very minor issues with the button templates.

1)Wiki rules donot allow images in text, so all buttons should belong in template form, as it wont be accesible to everyone easily.

2)The PlayStation ones would look more appealing and more familiar to players if it were changed from this : to 20px. If this is accepted. I will make the background of the button transparent.

Notes:

• The file is a .PNG
• The square is the same one as before
• The circle is made by me

That's all, thanks. --DiscoDiva (talk) 01:06, 21 August 2013 (PDT)

Would have been easier to have just uploaded over the previous version instead of having 2 different ones. Ashes (talk) 02:18, 21 August 2013 (PDT)

He wanted to check if it was good first. It would be ideal, as DiscoDiva said in 1) for this to work similarly to Template:Key, and thus be a template. However, some nicer images are never bad. Darkid (|) 06:04, 21 August 2013 (PDT)

So shall I get going and make the nicer images in a template form? No worries, I know that stuff. Just wanted an approval.--DiscoDiva (talk) 23:15, 22 August 2013 (PDT)

By "template form" I meant without images--i.e. a "square" character on a black background, or something. Darkid (|) 06:52, 23 August 2013 (PDT)

Yeah, I'll make the template pages, so they are accesible to however wants to use by just writing the text. Shall I proceed? --DiscoDiva (talk) 09:41, 23 August 2013 (PDT)

WP:BeBold! Go for it. Darkid (|) 09:51, 23 August 2013 (PDT)

Okee doke. I uploaded the new versions and made the separate template pages for the first batch of buttons. You can see my work here and add anything that would help and make it more convenient, if you wish.

• Template:PS Square
• Template:PS X
• Template:PS Circle
• Template:PS Triangle

There are still a few format issues on the template page, though. --DiscoDiva (talk) 23:46, 31 August 2013 (PDT)

I changed from normal link to wiki link one, please use [[ and ]] to create the link that're in this wiki. Rikka Takanashi (talk) • (contributions) 00:23, 1 September 2013 (PDT)

I now realize that I didn't make myself clear--I was hoping for one template, like {{Playstation Button}} which took a parameter (Square, X, Circle, Triangle). Templates are nice for shortcuts, but if they transclude an image then certain things (like width, alt-text, etc) can't be set. Darkid (|) 12:25, 1 September 2013 (PDT)

As in merging them in one template page? Well, I did tried that, but I decided to what I was able to do better. Atleast they are there. --DiscoDiva (talk) 06:24, 3 September 2013 (PDT)

I merged them quickly into one template and you can find the result from {{PSTemplate}}. Due to quick merge its name is what it is and it just directs to those PS Square, X, etc templates at this moment, but those can be quickly changed if needed. -Asplode (talk) 07:41, 3 September 2013 (PDT)

I've gone ahead and merged this all into {{PS Button}}. Please try not to over-think templates, it will save you headaches in the long-run. i-ghost (talk) 14:43, 31 October 2013 (PDT)

Adding file names to items

Should we add where items can be found in the files to hats and weapons pages? A lot of the files are counter-intuitively named and it makes it hard to find particular items in Source Film Maker. Guybrush20X6 (talk) 08:13, 3 September 2013 (PDT)

I think that adding that information to every single weapon and item page might be worth less than the time it takes to do it; however, if you'd be willing to meet halfway and have a single page with all of that information listed (basically a list of the names, images, and location of the weapon/item in question) in a nice template, I'd love to have that resource around. ~Sven~ (talk) 08:16, 3 September 2013 (PDT)

Yes, it's called the item schema. This discussion has been shot down before. i-ghost (talk) 14:43, 31 October 2013 (PDT)

The Wiki Cap: Recognition or Reward?

I've been hearing a lot of chatter recently (and in general, too) about people who hop on the wiki and try to get a Wiki Cap. These people tend to be misguided, assuming that they can do this quickly and with little effort, but it raises a larger question: Is the Wiki Cap viewed as recognition for one's work on the wiki, or is it a reward to encourage editors? (Alternately, both.)

I feel like this question merits some discussion on the wiki, but I also looked to see what the current opinion seems to be. In other words, I calculated some statistics about the 144 current Wiki Cap owners. The raw data is here, but before getting into that I'd like to summarize some key results:

1. A large majority of users (83%) who get a Wiki Cap lose interest in editing afterwards, that is to say their edits per day drops by a factor of 3+ (I.e. from 10 edits per day to 3 edits per day).
2. Of this majority, a further 18% (15% overall) stopped editing completely, which is to say their edits per day dropped by a factor of 100+ (From 10 edits per day to 1 edit per 10 days).
3. A mere 9 users (6%) showed an increase in edit rate after getting a Wiki Cap. Of these 9 users, 5 showed increases in editing by over 50% (From 10 edits per day to 15 edits per day).

Some general notes about this data:

• The data is compiled from Wiki-Fi and reflects the accuracy present there.
  • As a result, the data is only accurate to 3 decimal places due to the accuracy of the cumulative edits statistic on stats.wiki.tf.
• This table does not account for the fact that editors may not have started editing when they created their account, or that they may not have been editing actively until a few months after their first edit.
  • As a result, editors who had long "dry" stretches at the beginning of their wiki lives may have under-represented productivity drops, as their productivity prior to getting a Wiki Cap will be under-represented.
• Wiki Caps were decided to be awarded at some delay to them being received.
• Certain users had Wiki Caps awarded to them based on work unrelated to editing. This affects only 3 users as I see, and should not have too great an impact on the overall data.

This data seems to imply that the Wiki Cap is a reward, but the question still remains if this is the correct mindset.
Darkid (|) 12:55, 15 September 2013 (PDT)

It can be the golden fleece for all I care if it properly incentivizes useful contributions to the wiki. In the end this is more valuable than a single given person quitting editing after they get one. Recognition, reward, bragging rights. It's all the same in the end as long as it compels people to be useful. Even considering the people that think there is some kind of magic number of edits and that it's the same thing as a promo item and their edit quality reflects that mindset, their collective contributions probably outweigh what a single person could do. -- Lagg 13:24, 15 September 2013 (PDT)

By the time somebody actually achieves the Wiki Cap, they have already done so much for the Wiki that they wouldn't even need to contribute anymore. While it's sad to lose such a helpful editor, they've already dramatically improved the Wiki to the point that they feel like their duty is complete. Although this isn't true for translators and the like (because how many people who speak Japanese are playing TF2?), on the English Wiki things will manage fine without them. After all, how many people would actually be on the Wiki if it wasn't for the hope of a one-of-a-kind cap? --Samuel Enthers 14:09, 24 September 2013 (PDT)

Crafting Australian Christmas and Pyromania item set hats

The hats and cosmetics associated with these sets have only been recently instated as being part of an actual set:

Big Chief, Scotch Bonnet, Berliner's Bucket Helm, Fed-Fightin' Fedora, Dillinger's Duffel Bag, Helmet Without a Home, Captain's Cocktails, Liquidator's Lid

Can anyone confirm that their crafting recipes exist as well? e.g. 4 Refined Metal and set weapon creates the hat

13:33, 17 September 2013 (PDT)

When I go into Fabricate Set Headgear, the game allows me to use the caber (big chief) crossbow (bucket helm), so I assume it works. Darkid (|) 13:58, 17 September 2013 (PDT)

There was a note on the Big Chief discussion page about the crafting page recognizing the blueprint, but not following through after pressing Craft. I can't seem to find where crafting recipes are located in the schema files and I'm not sure if people want to actually use metal for this. 14:19, 17 September 2013 (PDT)

They are not in the schema, they are server-based (much like crate unboxing). Thus, it's quite likely that if a bug becomes documented, valve can fix it on their end. Darkid (|) 18:03, 17 September 2013 (PDT)

Strategy section overhaul

I'd really like to start an effort to reorganize the whole of the strategy pages as much of the data in them is out of date and I don't think they're organized very efficiently anyway. There's a lot of redundant - and possibly conflicting - info. The current system is:

• Basic Strategy - General class strategy and basic weapon tactics. It's all fairly brief and highly curated; "official" in a sense.
• Class Match-Ups - How that class fares against any other class, also fairly succinct.
• Anti-Class Strategy - Info for going up against a class and their weapons. Another "basic" article.
• Community Strategy - Class strategy, weapon tactics, match-ups against classes, pairings with classes, loadout recommendations... All less monitored but more detailed than the previous three.

It seems really inefficient to lump all the scattered community data into one page but have the brief "curated" stuff in separated pages when they could fit in one page much more easily than all the community stuff while remaining easy to monitor and keep up-to-date. Thus, I propose:

• Overall Strategy - A merge of the basic strategy and class match-up articles, along with new "general" class pairing info and basic weapon loadout examples (stock loadout, defined sets like Special Delivery or Hibernating Bear). The data from the anti-class page would also be merged in by not only providing strategy for each weapon in their sections, but also against it, eliminating the need for a separate article. A "cheat-sheet," if you will.
• Community Tactics - Community class strategy and weapon tactics. Should be much easier to manage if it's just in its own article, and keep track of when data becomes outdated. Like the new overall data page, would also contain data against each weapon as well as for it.
• Match-Ups/Pairings - The match-up/pairing info from the current community pages. Each article is into two halves: match-ups against enemy classes, and pairing tactics with friendly classes.
• Loadout Recommendations - A page for community loadout recommendations. Each recommendation has a title or brief description, the loadout, an explanation, and both the name of the submitter and the date of submission, in order to gauge how up-to-date a recommendation is in light of ongoing balance patches.

But yeah. Basically group all the "general" data while the community data is split up into pages. VinLAURiA (talk) 03:20, 18 September 2013 (PDT)

The only issue with this major grouping is the page size. One of the reasons I still (rarely) use the strategy pages is because I can quickly find the relevant counter-class or counter-weapon strategy. I'm not sure if this is just me, but with this rework, try to keep in mind readability. Darkid (|) 05:39, 18 September 2013 (PDT)

 Support This overhaul would be an extremely clean way to display all of the relevant information, unlike the clutter we have now. --Samuel Enthers 16:34, 21 September 2013 (PDT)

Eradicating the <tt> element

The <tt> element is a presentation element and fails to indicate the semantic context of the contents. As such it has been removed in HTML 5.[1]

I want to clean the wiki of it and replace it with semantic markup instead. But it is a big job and I can't do it alone.

Can I please get some help?

I first want to find a list of suitable replacements. Marking everything with <code> elements is not optimal here. We want templates like Cvar that can be given complicated code as needed.

Only after the correct replacements are figured out can a proper cleanup be done.--Henke37 (talk) 12:47, 18 September 2013 (PDT)

What kind of markup are we talking about here? --Samuel Enthers 13:57, 24 September 2013 (PDT)

All copies are gone now, except for minor sandbox pages. Darkid (Talk | Contribs) 08:10, 26 March 2014 (PDT)

About quotes

Moved from User talk:Rikka Takanashi
Most of the quotes on the wiki are supplemented by a little extra detail, perhaps to add context or to make a joke to an otherwise empty phrase. However, not all of the quotes on the hat and weapon pages has that additional wording, especially on some of the older pages. Naturally, this creates a problem with consistency. I wanted to fix the consistency issue by adding in more information to these quotes not only to make them more appealing, but to keep every page on the Wiki on an equal level. In this case, it is very necessary to add in extra details for the sake of improving the Wiki. You don't have a problem with this, I assume? --Samuel Enthers 17:22, 18 September 2013 (PDT)

I don't think so. Why we need to add little extra information? Also on the page that added to make it "not same" as another page that use the same quote or the quote that can't fit with the article. Those pages I removed because the quotes already fit the page, no need to expand. Rikka Takanashi (talk) • (contributions) 17:30, 18 September 2013 (PDT)

It's just a formality. We need to add information to make it more professional. If nobody needed to add any more information to the end of quotes, then why do we have them on such articles like the Crafty Hair, the Dillinger's Duffel, and the Bolt Boy? It's because not only does it tie into TF2's comedic and not-so-serious universe, but because at the end of the day it just looks better. It looks like more work has been put into the article, just by adding in one sentence. It works wonders on adding a little more to the already-bare cosmetic pages, and it's painless without causing any trouble. Just because something doesn't need to be done, doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Look at the Glossary of Player Terms, for example. We could manage just fine as a Wiki without adding in that page. But we did, and it's one of the most useful pages on the Wiki by rounding out it's general content. I really don't see a problem here. --Samuel Enthers 17:41, 18 September 2013 (PDT)

I think we should move this thread to General discussion to make it more clear, should we? Because I never think it's necessary unless it needs to specific to fit the items like Spy-cicle ("I see spy!" is not fit unless we added that the Heavy played pun to "Icy spy!") Rikka Takanashi (talk) • (contributions) 01:36, 19 September 2013 (PDT)

It was a good call moving this to the general discussion. Clearly we weren't going to settle this on our own. For the reasons stated above, I'll have to add in my  Support. --Samuel Enthers 14:58, 19 September 2013 (PDT)

 Oppose, with reason above. Rikka Takanashi (talk) • (contributions) 16:49, 19 September 2013 (PDT)

Create a standardized format for the Community Strategy articles?

Some of my favorite articles on the Wiki to read and edit are the Community Strategy Pages. However, I've noticed that they're a bit of a mess. The formatting and style is very inconsistent with one another, with sections and content having different names and placement. It annoys me that there isn't much consistency for such an important part of the Wiki. It's time to create a format that will lessen confusion among readers who go through the strategy pages often, and to make things nice and organised for all. I've developed the following format for strategy pages that combines all of the content from all 9 class pages that I think will work well. Of course, it isn't set in stone.

Lead section Paragraph and summary about the classes specific playstyles and unique abilities, as well as the general specs of each one (E.G. health, speed, etc.). The goal is to provide a brief overview of the class in a more in-depth summary than the classes main pages, without going too into detail so it isn't hard to read through.

1. Quick Tips Little "Protips" specific to the individual class. These provide little bits of strategy that the basic player can understand and carry out. They're like the in-game tips that you see on the bottom-left corner of the load screen.

2. General These are general bits of strategy that aren't weapon specific but apply only to abilities that the specific class can carry out or will find use in. A Soldier general tip shouldn't apply to the Pyro, etc. This section leads into the next section.

2.1 Class specific ability #1

2.2 Class specific ability #2

2.3 Class specific ability #3 These 3 subsections are designed to provide more in-depth strategy about the classes' specific abilities in a detailed and specific way. The goal is to only take the abilities that the specific classes will find a use for (E.G. Build locations for the Engineer, Headshots for the Sniper, Rocket Jumping for the Soldier) and create much more detailed strategies for them that other classes won't be able to make use of. Obviously we're not going to make a section about jumping for the Heavy because he almost never jumps in combat, but a section about jumping for the Scout will be extremely useful because jumping is one of the Scout's main combat strategies.

3. Weapon Specific

3.1 Primary Weapons (except Spy)

3.2 Secondary Weapons

3.3 Melee Weapons

3.4 Secondary PDA (Spy only)

3.5 Buildings (Spy only) These subsections are designed to provide more information and strategy about the specific weapons that the class uses that wouldn't apply in general strategy. The first sentence would be an overview about the weapons stats, and the rest of the section would be the actual strategy and tips. The Spy is a special case because he has no primary weapon, but instead has Sappers and Watches to talk about.

4. Buildings (Engineer only) The Engineer's buildings are obviously very different from the weapons he uses, so obviously they get their own sections and strategy.

4.1 Sentry Gun

Level 1

Level 2

Level 3

4.2 Dispenser

Level 1

Level 2

Level 3

4.3 Teleporter

Level 1

Level 2

Level 3

4.4 Combat Mini-Sentry Gun These sections are supposed to provide placement and maintenance strategies for the specific buildings and levels. As the Engineer's buildings level up the strategies change as well. The Engineer article should be more accommodating of these minute differences in building strategies and not just group all 3 levels together.

4. Taunt attacks Much like the weapon strategy above, but only for specific taunt attacks.

5. Weapon Combinations This section focuses on weapon loadouts and specific strategies for use with them, much like we already have.

6. Class Priority (Medic, Sniper, and Spy only) The Medic, Sniper, and Spy play much differently than the other classes, where they have to choose what classes they target in order to ensure positive results. Because of this, it would be beneficial to the strategy page if the 3 classes had a numbered list of classes that they need to target first so that they know what the best classes to kill/heal would be.

6. Cooperative Class Strategies This section is designed to create new strategies that are specific to teamwork with 2 or more players of different classes. They involve thinking outside of the box, encouraging team play, and making comparisons between two classes in a unique way.

7. Other class specific strategies Sometimes we can't say all that we can about a class in just 6 sections. Sometimes we need to go further to go more in detail about the class, such as with the Spy. If it is necessary, we can add in these strategies somewhere within the article, not necessarily #7.

Of course, this is just my idea. But I hope that we can work together to revitalise and reinvent the Community Strategy Pages so that they can be restored to their former glory. --Samuel Enthers 12:24, 24 September 2013 (PDT)

Looks like you've put a lot of thought into this layout, and the strategy pages really could do with an overhaul. Maybe if you could try throwing together an example page in your own namespace so more people can see how it would look? » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 03:36, 25 September 2013 (PDT)

 Agree'd The Community Stratedgy articles are the most messy ones, if I were a staff member, I'd give this the green light! StarHorder 08:24, 25 September 2013 (PDT)

Like Cooper Kid said, I want to see it on the page rather than in comment. I can't imagine clearly. And RobTheStarCollector, next time use {{c}} template instead of Pro and Con one. Rikka Takanashi (talk) • (contributions) 08:48, 25 September 2013 (PDT)

Alright everybody, it's all in the works. I'm making a markup in my user namespace and it will be done when I have an hour of free opportunity. It should be complete in a few hours at this time of posting, but I'm just letting you know that I am working on it. I really appreciate the support though! --Samuel Enthers 11:14, 25 September 2013 (PDT)

I've finished up the example! I've added in relevant information in bold. I can re-write the whole Spy article to fit in with this template, but I just need permission to go ahead and do that. What does everybody think? --Samuel Enthers 17:42, 25 September 2013 (PDT)

Also, if this goes until Monday with no objections, I will go ahead and implement this to the articles. After a thorough rewrite of course. --Samuel Enthers 07:28, 27 September 2013 (PDT)

I question the need for a template--as opposed to {{Match-Up}}, there's negligible formatting--but the formatting is good overall. I question (for engineer) the need for subheadings for different levels of anything but sentries. TOC limit is fun, but the most useful subsection headers are probably the weapon subheaders. Also specifically, how is an engineer a more important target than a medic? Darkid (|) 07:49, 27 September 2013 (PDT)

Now, this isn't a template per say. It's a guideline that I just whipped up together in my user space. It's used to help us with rewriting the strategy pages without being cast in stone. I mostly copied what the strategy pages already have while reformatting it myself, so it isn't meant to be a re-write yet. Also, if there's an Engineer on the enemy team you're not going to waste time on the Medic, you're going to sap all of his buildings and kill him. --Samuel Enthers 08:33, 27 September 2013 (PDT)

Standardizing the formatting is a good idea, but may I recommend combining this with my categorization suggestion above so that all the community stuff isn't lumped together. You were already in support of that, right? VinLAURiA (talk) 16:18, 29 September 2013 (PDT)

503 errors everywhere!

From any device I use, the site takes like 3 minutes to load and frequently gets 503s. Either it's just me, or the wiki needs a fix. Sometimes I accidentally make double edits or it never submits. ErnieTheGreatest (talk) 18:14, 31 October 2013 (PDT)

Can't do much about it. Its site traffic. Either wait or edit at a later time. There really is no fix. Ashes (talk) 18:16, 31 October 2013 (PDT)

This happens every major update. Wait a few days for it to pass. VinLAURiA (talk) 02:41, 2 November 2013 (PDT)

This has been happening way before the major updates--in fact, I'd associate the time with when we upgraded mediawiki (although I doubt this *caused* the problem). Darkid (|) 09:24, 2 November 2013 (PDT)

Renaming Scream Fortress 2013 to Helloween Special

Similar to how last year's Spectral Halloween Special was taken from the subtitle, I figured we'd keep things consistent by also doing the same thing this year instead of the generic title we have now. I actually tried to do this myself, but I'm pretty green when it comes to MediaWiki workings so I've been told that my method was a very crude and tedious "brute force" method and that I should've asked for consensus first anyway. So, yes? No? VinLAURiA (talk) 07:29, 6 November 2013 (PST)

I'm fine with renaming. Scream Fortress is to generic anyways. Just need a Bot to do all the changes and its all good really. Ashes (talk) 19:28, 9 November 2013 (PST)

What changes? All we need to do is move the update pages, nav templates, and categories. Darkid (|) 12:23, 10 November 2013 (PST)

... I blame Ashes. VinLAURiA (talk) 18:39, 10 November 2013 (PST)

Yeah, But using a bot would be more useful as we're moving hundreds of pages, templates and categories, Including translations. So a Bot would be more reasonable for a task like this. Ashes (talk) 18:44, 10 November 2013 (PST)

Category:Scream Fortress 2013 Template:Scream Fortress 2013 Nav Scream Fortress 2013 Scream Fortress 2013/cs Scream Fortress 2013/de Scream Fortress 2013/fr Scream Fortress 2013/pt-br Scream Fortress 2013/ru Scream Fortress 2013/zh-hant. Any others? Darkid (|) 18:56, 10 November 2013 (PST)

Not that I'm aware of. As I said elsewhere, I'm fairly certain changing the categories in the navigation templates would update all the appropriate pages without the need for bots. VinLAURiA (talk) 18:06, 11 November 2013 (PST)

Is there a reason not to use the official update name instead? tf2.com/history.php lists it as 'Scream Fortress V'. — Armisael (T · C) 19:16, 10 November 2013 (PST)

The same thing could be said for last year's special, which was officially Scream Fortress IV. The point is they're more distinct this way; just numbering them generically is pretty bland. VinLAURiA (talk) 16:54, 11 November 2013 (PST)

They're more distinct, but is it actually useful? I have no idea what year the Very Scary Halloween special was without looking it up (or what it was about) - I consider them more informative. And yes, we would want to change the name of last year's halloween special as well, but as noted above, that's not that difficult. — Armisael (T · C) 22:11, 11 November 2013 (PST)

That's not necessary. In many of the cases where more than one Halloween special is mentioned - such as the nav templates - there will usually be the year in parenthesis or some other mention of where each one falls in order with the others. Not only would "Scream Fortress #" be more generic, it'd be redundant. And from memory, the Very Scary Halloween Special was 2011's battle against MONOCULUS! It's really not that hard to remember. VinLAURiA (talk) 22:14, 12 November 2013 (PST)

If I'm user, I prefer the way to easy to remember the name, like The Forth Anniversary of Scream Fortress. The specific name like Very Scary Halloween Special can make me confuse with another Halloween Update. Rikka Takanashi (talk) • (contributions) 03:17, 13 November 2013 (PST)

So... should we do a vote, then? 'Cuz I'm saying  Support VinLAURiA (talk) 07:11, 22 November 2013 (PST)

Golden Frying Pen 22 November 2013

Здравствуйте дорогие участники! Я в конце каталога нашел оружие ближнего боя "Золотая сковорода". Ребят, это новая вещичка или я туплю? В интернете про нее ничего нету! Hello dear... players? I've just found a golden frying pan in the end of catalogue Mann Co! Is it new item or i am a just slowpoke? There is nothing in Internet about that!

See Golden Frying Pan.

Zabidenu

(contribs ▪ talk) 05:40, 22 November 2013 (PST)

An official 'Update Checklist'

This wiki has gotten very complex over the years, and one of the greatest complexities, mixed with the largest scrambles, and one of the easiest entry points for new users is updates. They're frequent, but the things they modify are so stretched out these days that invariably, even the most experienced editors forget some detain in some template somewhere. I propose, to be added to the Help: namespace, an update checklist which will allow users, new and old, to ensure that no nuance of any update is missed. I have mocked one up here, and although it likely has inaccuracies, I feel that it is close enough to complete to warrant possible submission. What do you all think of the idea/my mock-up? Darkid (|) 04:21, 23 November 2013 (PST)

I'd add the following for the weapons / etc. that mess around with a classes health, speed: Template:Metrics/Speed, Template:Metrics/Health, Template:Class health table, Template:Class speed table, since those hide the 'hidden math voodoo' of the game --Org (talk) 11:25, 23 November 2013 (PST)

Done. Darkid (|) 11:30, 23 November 2013 (PST)

Well I guess I'll put this to formal vote, since there was no discussion.  Agree It's not clear, even to experienced editors (like me!) what to do every update. Certain pages which should be maintained (like {{Itemcount}} and {{Dictionary/quad}}) have fallen behind, due to obscurity. A formal list of what to do will solve both of these problems, as well as simplifying what needs to be done every update--People can just read off the list. Darkid (|) 11:06, 30 November 2013 (PST)

 Agree This would be a pretty useful thing to have too, as long as the checklist covers some more stuff, like the painted variants section of the page, and the lists of paintable items. It can be pretty hard to work out what things need to be done with updates, especially when new items are added, or there are significant changes needed to existing pages. --Omolong (talk) 11:11, 30 November 2013 (PST)

 Agree Poot. —Moussekateer·talk 11:19, 30 November 2013 (PST)

Ok, pushing to Team Fortress Wiki:Update Checklist. I will also update {{TFWiki navbar}}. If someone could put a mention of it somewhere in the Help Center, that would be great. Darkid (|) 01:32, 5 December 2013 (PST)

Pages for Mann vs Machine upgrades?

I was thinking that MvM upgrades deserve their own pages, especially for stuff like disposable sentries and the projectile shield, because I can't find any info about it. I'd be more than glad to make a few pages myself about what I do know.

Thanks for reading. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Oscarvdhooft (talk) • (contribs)

Upgrade Station Darkid (|) 13:10, 24 November 2013 (PST)

NOT what I meant. Actual pages for invidual upgrades, clearly describing their mechanics. Complex upgrades like projectile shield, knockback rage and disposable sentries could use their own page because there is no info on it anywhere. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Oscarvdhooft (talk) • (contribs)

Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~. I feel like, although important upgrades, they would only constitute around a paragraph of detail (Minisentries especially do not need much explanation). This information could be easily put on that page, if you would like to add it. Darkid (|) 12:31, 27 November 2013 (PST)

Signing? How does that work? And the disposable sentry gun is actually different from the regular mini sentry gun. I still believe that upgrades like the projectile shield deserve their own page because there is much more than a paragraph about it. I unfortunately can't add anything about it because I don't know anything about because- you guessed it, there's no wiki page and I don't know how I can access and understand TF2 coding, while others do and could write a page about it.

— The preceding unsigned comment was added by Oscarvdhooft (talk) • (contribs)

Giving a page for every single upgrade would be pointless. It would more less clutter. Its easier to compile it all into one page which we already have anyways. Just saying. Ashes (talk) 08:56, 28 November 2013 (PST)

Wiki editing is mostly done in WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get). If you can provide the text for the pages, someone else can deal with the formatting. By signing, I only mean ending your post with ~~~~.

Darkid (|) 10:47, 28 November 2013 (PST)

Well I'm not the best writer or formatter for that matter, but what I wanted was more of a request for people to make them. As of now there is no information I can find on the projectile shield, and I'd like to learn about its mechanics.

Oscarvdhooft (talk) 23:59, 30 November 2013 (PST)

Blocks bullets and projectiles, deals typeless (bison) damage on contact. Builds from healing/overhealing. Upgrading increases degree coverage, duration, and build rate. A formal paragraph would add numbers to all of this (degrees up/down, etc). I can do this, if you like. Darkid (|) 00:03, 1 December 2013 (PST)

Would it not easier to just add this information onto the Upgrade Station page. Since that's where all upgrades are listed. Ashes (talk) 10:49, 1 December 2013 (PST)

Currently no Page for Heart of Gold

This item has been around since the 11/26/13, yet no one has created a page for it. Is there not sufficient information about the item or is everyone waiting for someone else to make the page? Neither one seems likely since the TF2Wiki has a large community and many people take responsibility. Also, pages are created and allowed to stay for things we barely know about. I'd gladly make the page myself but I'm not really sure how or what to do in order to create an acceptable page, or why it's not being done in the first place. --Shnowshner (talk) 19:53, 28 November 2013 (PST)

Must have been overlooked in the recent bustle of edits still being made to the large MvM patch. I will create the base page now. —Moussekateer·talk 20:04, 28 November 2013 (PST)

Okay, thanks. --Shnowshner (talk) 20:08, 28 November 2013 (PST)

Update, please, Main Page/ru

Up - RUS VERSION Down - EN VERSION

A good spot to post this request would the Translators' Noticeboard. Nobody here can really help with that request--only one of the russian translators can. If it's a seriously outdated main page (it looks rather alright, btw), then you might post on an active russian editor's talk page. However, keep in mind that translation is by volunteer only--if someone does not want to translate the page (because it's a lot of work) they don't have to do so. Darkid (|) 11:35, 30 November 2013 (PST)

More info on the comics?

I was wondering if we should have a section on character pages that explains their roles in the comics. I know one guy was saying most gamers don't focus on the comics, (I had put this topic on the wrong page earlier) but I still feel like it's important. Almost all other wikis explain other sources, as well. Sure, there's not a lot of story to the comics, but lately they've been making a story arc, (spoiler alert) after Gray took over Mann co. and the mercs got fired, and now Miss Pauling has to find them. (end of spoilers) There aren't a lot of comics now, but they are being posted, so if we wait for there to be a long, big story, then by then there would be a lot of catching up to do. --PyroGothNerd (talk) 11:58, 23 December 2013 (PST)

Eh... Wouldn't say it's really needed since you could incorporate it on the Non-player characters page. Under their name just add to it. As long as it is canon really. Ashes (talk) 12:55, 23 December 2013 (PST)

But I'm talking about the player- wait. Do you mean put the player characters as they appear in the comics in the non-player characters since inb the comics they aren't characters? .... That could get confusing. --PyroGothNerd (talk) 14:57, 23 December 2013 (PST)

Oh i see where your getting at. You're referring to the nine classes correct? If so, Kinda pointless there really. Wouldn't see the need to. Ashes (talk) 15:05, 23 December 2013 (PST)

But some information in the comics aren't in the games, like how Demoman's Mom always gets on him about getting a job (even when he was a kid, sheesh) or how the Scout has a crush on Miss Pauling. --PyroGothNerd (talk) 18:19, 23 December 2013 (PST)

/ukr

Should we translate the wiki into Ukrainian? You know, TF2 just got ukrainian localization files. - \theguy299\talk\contribs\ 08:33, 14 January 2014 (PST)

yay no answer - \theguy299\talk\contribs\ 05:12, 19 January 2014 (PST)

Well, if TF2 Community decides to create Ukrainian version of Wiki, I'll gladly help to expand it. User:XLVIII User talk:XLVIII

See here. Just because STS supports a language doesn't mean we do. If you can get enough support (probably 3-5 editors, committed for around a year), then bring this topic back up again, talk to an admin, they'll get the relevant things set up. Darkid (Talk | Contribs) 09:17, 23 January 2014 (PST)

Sheen on Killstreak Weapons

Hi there people of the wiki!

I recently got an idea of a new section that would be good to add to each weapon. The sheen from professional, or specialized killstreak weapons does not always appear on each of the weapons. I believe that a section on each weapon that told weather or not the sheen shows on the weapon would be good to have.

Another good section to have on each of the weapons would be one that explained where the sheen appeared on each weapon. I have noticed that on many of the professional killstreak items the sheen only appears on one part of the weapon. For some weapons, you can not see the sheen on them in first person, while you can only see the sheen in third person.

It would be good if everyone could help get together a list of each weapon where the sheen does not show, and where the sheen does show for each weapon. I have seen many situations where someone trades a fair deal of keys for a specialized or professional killstreak weapon, and once they get the weapon and don't see the sheen, they get extremely upset.

Having a list for this would be very helpful.

Thanks people of the wiki!

Here is the link for the list so that you can add, or change it: http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Killstreak_weapons_sheen — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alienboy567 (talk) • (contribs)

Not really needed honestly. Ashes (talk) 09:38, 15 January 2014 (PST)

Possible user page template

Hi everyone, long time no see. I have made this html document (responsive versions for tablets and mobiles) because i wanted an updated look on my user profile... but then i thought... why can't we have it as a template that everyone can use? i would like to make it with wiki syntax and document it so everyone can have a snazy steam community looking userpage.

point being, what are your thoughts. i am also open to suggestions as i may have missed some core features of a wiki user page. - Lexar - talk 08:38, 17 January 2014 (PST)

On the one hand, it looks awesome and it would be handy to have a template that new users can use to spruce up their userpage. On the other hand ... we could end up with everyone using the same template. The amazing variety of userpage designs makes each one unique, and a lot of people enjoy personalising their own page. A big template like this might make things too ... generic, if you know what I mean. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 08:19, 18 January 2014 (PST)

"unofficial/community" banner

We need a banner like that for stuff like Convoy like I've mentioned in the talk page of Convoy. This would alert people that the information they are about to read isn't official such as the fancy vs nasty thing or the guard dog thing. Otherwise it makes it look like a real thing in the game. Hell, why are unofficial maps even in here? This is the TF2 Official wiki... We don't need UNOFFICIAL ITEMS on this wiki but if we're going to have them, we need a "COMMUNITY-CREATED" banner Anyone? ErnieTheGreatest (talk) 22:00, 18 January 2014 (PST)

Dont' think its really needed. The description saying "community created" in the actual article is enough. A banner isn't really needed. IMO Ashes (talk) 22:06, 18 January 2014 (PST)

‎ ClockworkSpirit2343 just did a nice job adding a banner to unofficial map pages! hooray! ErnieTheGreatest (talk) 23:12, 18 January 2014 (PST)

TF wiki logo

Since this is called the TF wiki and has all the TFC stuff... why does the actual logo say TF2 wiki? Could someone make a logo that has TF without the 2? That might look cool and accurate. ErnieTheGreatest (talk) 18:20, 26 January 2014 (PST)

Add Blog Post Topics? (Posted in List of Blog Posts Discussion)

Should the contents for each blog post be added in order to make finding a certain blog post easier? Because most of the posts, if not all, do not have clear titles indicating their contents. Green5 (talk) 02:24, 20 February 2014 (PST)

Damage types needed

I'm really surprised that this has never been added. There are a lot of weapons with non-obvious damage types, and this should be documented on the wiki. This is relevant for MvM, weapons that give type-specific buffs and debuffs, and most of all the Vaccinator. There is currently a brief summary on the damage page, but it's grossly inadequate. I would suggest two things: Add a damage type section to the damage box for each weapon, and/or add a table of all weapons and the damage they do, either on the damage page or on a new page. Some lists of damage types have previously been compiled elsewhere (for example), and I can help test any that are in doubt.

I would start doing this myself, but I want some consensus on how to organize and format this information. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kered13 (talk) • (contribs)

 Support Yes, god yes. Can we please do this? There are plenty of weapons that deal damage in weird ways - this really is important information. It wouldn't be hard to add a section to the weapon infobox for this, either. — Armisael (T · C) 16:42, 23 February 2014 (PST)

 Support - just not sure if this should be in the infobox or the "Damage or function times" section. I'm personally just as okay with both. (contribs ▪ talk) 16:43, 23 February 2014 (PST)

Might be appropriate to put it in {{Damage table}} as a call to a wrapper template pointing to a dictionary. Just fyi I wouldn't trust that link as it seems to think that melee weapons are 'nothing' when in fact they are bullet damage. i-ghost (talk) 09:49, 9 March 2014 (PDT)

Melee weapons don't activate the pain train's bullet vulnerability - I think they once did, but that was fixed. — Armisael (T · C) 19:47, 9 March 2014 (PDT)

Like Armisael said, it's fixed for a long. Maybe we need to state the melee weapons as "Melee" type. Rikka Takanashi (talk) • (contributions) 20:19, 9 March 2014 (PDT)

See also: Damage

Damage and function times
Shot type		Projectile
Damage
Base damage	100%	30 (bullet)
Critical		90 (30 bullet, 60 crit)
Mini-crit		41 (30 bullet, 11 crit)
Afterburn		3 / tick 60 total (fire)
Afterburn (mini-crit)		4 / tick 80 total (60 fire, 20 crit)
Function times
Attack interval		2 s
Afterburn duration		10 s
Values are approximate and determined by community testing.

What do people think about this format, then? Implementation would probably be done through some dictionary somewhere. — Armisael (T · C) 10:53, 10 March 2014 (PDT)

I think that looks good, but I'll note that the flareguns' primary damage is BOTH bullet AND fire. So for example, a targe + paintrain demo will take 30*0.5*1.1 = 17 damage (after rounding). As far as I know the flareguns are the only weapons with this dual type property, but the format needs to be able to represent that. One possibility:

See also: Damage

Damage and function times
Shot type		Projectile
Damage
Base damage	100%	30 (bullet/fire)
Critical		90 (30 bullet/fire, 60 crit)
Mini-crit		41 (30 bullet/fire, 11 crit)
Afterburn		3 / tick 60 total (fire)
Afterburn (mini-crit)		4 / tick 80 total (60 fire, 20 crit)
Function times
Attack interval		2 s
Afterburn duration		10 s
Values are approximate and determined by community testing.

Another thought would be to use icons to represent the damage types. We could possibly use the Vaccinator resistance icons for that?

I'm also going to add some less obvious weapon types that I have found by experimenting:

• All flareguns (including manmelter): Bullet AND fire
• Sandman/Wrapp assassin ball: Melee
• Caber: 35 Melee + 150 Explosion
• Pomson/Bison: Typeless, but still ranged
• Loose Cannon (impact): Explosive
• Charge impact: Melee
• Guillotine: Typeless, neither melee nor ranged (!)

I'm testing these by running a server with puppet bots and the GiveWeapons plugin to give them different resistance items. If there are any other items you think should be tested, post them and I'll try to do them. Kered13 (talk) 22:55, 25 March 2014 (PDT)

We can break at least some of the text out to its own row, although afterburn and crits are still obnoxious cases - I think it may be best to just link to afterburn in the table for those few weapons that inflict it.

Like so. Thoughts? — Armisael (T · C) 10:37, 28 March 2014 (PDT)

Looks fine, though I would do 'bullet / fire' or 'bullet & fire' spacing is nice. Darkid (Talk | Contribs) 10:42, 28 March 2014 (PDT)

Looks good. I second using "bullet / fire". Kered13 (talk) 00:32, 29 March 2014 (PDT)

"Originally contributed as set" - notable?

Hi,
I recently updated some pages of the Strongbox Pack and found some inconsistencies belonging to a common trivia entry:

"The XYZ and ABC were originally contributed as a part of the IJK set."

On some pages, this was removed, on others, it still exists. I'm now asking for an opinion about what we should do with those.
~{ TidB | t | c }~ 08:24, 15 March 2014 (PDT)

As the number of items in this game grows, telling what was originally intended to be a set becomes very tricky. However, there's also no need to reference non-official content; so only if all members of the set are in the game do I feel that should this be listed. Darkid (Talk | Contribs) 09:03, 15 March 2014 (PDT)

Creating a page for TipOfTheHats.org

Tip of the Hats is an annual charity livestream event benefiting One Step Camp, hosted by the competitive Team Fortress 2 community. First held in April 2013, the inaugural event lasted 36 hours and raised over $35,000. Players from around the world participated in the livestream and helped to make it one of the biggest events in Team Fortress 2 history, with more than 65,000 people tuning in.

I believe it deserves its own page on the wiki, And should even be a featured article to raise awareness of it. It takes place March 29th though the 30th. Many of the bigger names in the TF2 community are around, and anyone can donate.

Tip of the hats allows donations through Hats/items and monatary donations start shortly before the event begins.

I just wanted to create this discussion to see if everyone does indeed agree. Vince Montego (talk) 22:20, 15 March 2014 (PDT)

 Agree We have pages for ESEA, CEVO, and so on, why not this community site? Darkid (Talk | Contribs) 22:22, 15 March 2014 (PDT)

 Neutral I'll be neutral on this, I don't think they're popular enough (Unless I haven't researched long enough) to have a page at this time. Ashes (talk) 22:23, 15 March 2014 (PDT)

By comparison, CEVO has 150 tf2 teams, so around 600 players, with a $8000 prize pool. Darkid (Talk | Contribs) 22:24, 15 March 2014 (PDT)

 Agree I think they're popular enough to have a TF2 page. They raised roughly 36k in 36 hours, which means they're quite popular. They also have their goals set higher this year. It's a nice way to spread the word about how video games(TF2 specifically) can help out in real life situations. --HuskyHippo (talk) 13:44, 16 March 2014 (PDT)

Feels like it should sit in Category:Community events. i-ghost (talk) 11:38, 23 March 2014 (PDT)

Well, Since the TF2 team officially recognized Tip of the hats on their blog, I think its safe to say a page is fine. Ashes (talk) 05:32, 31 March 2014 (PDT)

New Update? New Content? New ARG!

Some new content was added to the game after the Two Cities update and the Smissmas 2013:

What was added:

This was found in the game after the updates

The bulletin board (inside the folder named "props_teaser" The (RED) and [BLU] Mann co. posters The painted shovels in Mannhattan

What has been discovered:

If you take all the numbers in the bulletin board and put them in update order, then decode them alphanumerically, you get "Be sure to drink your jarute" (yes, jarute not jarate). Here's the numbers: 2 5 19 21 18 5 20 15 4 18 9 14 11 25 15 21 18 10 1 18 21 20 5. Alphanumerically is "1=a, 2=b" and so on.

The Scout in the bulletin board is featured in a Force-a-Nature poster but instead of the FaN he is holding a red painted (yes, painted) Holy Mackerel, this matches with the shovels found in Mannhattan

There is a little picture partially hidden under the Medic’s Gold Rush update picture with blurred words that says Poppy Joe?

The envelope features blurred words that possibly says later, further, future

Near to the Engineer’s update picture we can see some blueprints of an unknown machine, possibly a rocket engine

Nothing yet from the Mann co. posters.

What are the conclusions:

1-Possibly in a near update we can paint weapons! 2-Due to the blueprint we are going to have new machine related gameplay (MvM not confirmed). 3-Poppy Joe can be mentioned again.

What do you guys think a new update and ARG? — The preceding unsigned comment was added by NUKPyromaniac (talk) • (contribs) 00:05, 25 March 2014

I think that this sort of discussion is better suited for the forums. Darkid (Talk | Contribs) 17:22, 24 March 2014 (PDT)

Should there be a page for Easter eggs?

I've been looking around the wiki lately and I noticed there isn't an Easter eggs page. I wanted to know if we should create a page for Easter eggs. It would have Easter eggs from all maps instead of having them on each of them. BetaBomb (talk) 12:14, 30 March 2014 (PDT)

Nope. Easier to just incorporate them on pages that have em. Also, kinda pointless to note them really.... Ashes (talk) 05:32, 31 March 2014 (PDT)

Spoilers

I think the Wiki could use spoilers, for example, in the Administrator page, considering the latest revelations in the comics. It could have some kind of support similar to the Portal Wiki, maybe? Even though yes, these informations will probably get old some day, they will still be spoilers for new players that haven't read the comics yet.

I don't know, just throwing in some ideas. Might actually be difficult to implement depending on how much access admins have to the site's structure (thougb I don't think that's the case). – Epic Eric (T | C) 17:52, 2 April 2014 (PDT)

How much of a concern is the storyline in TF2 anyways? If you don't read the comics you wouldn't care about the administrator at all. It might be worth being a warning up at the top of the page, but I don't think anything else would really be necessary. — Armisael (T · C) 18:20, 2 April 2014 (PDT)

Eh. Fair enough. – Epic Eric (T | C) 17:34, 3 April 2014 (PDT)

I’ve wondered about this myself, not just for Storyline but for references and “Easter eggs” as well. In the latter cases, I wonder if someone new to the game would rather try to figure out the references and find the subtle content on their own and so would appreciate a Spoiler warning. On the other hand, all of the background content and (especially) the Trivia sections clue the new player into the existence of comics, movies, in-game story, and (especially) hidden content. This second case was certainly my situation, Pyromania was the first update to happen after I started, and I completely missed it, I was on the road for a month and had no idea it had happened, but for the references to it in the wiki articles. So, count me Neutral to mild Support, I can understand the feature being of limited value and a bother to implement and maintain, especially to the senior members; but, I can also imagine (meaning guess, really) a few new players appreciating spoiler notices. Moreover, the storyline is developing and moving into the realm of revelations. True, up to this year, there hasn’t been much if anything to spoil; but I think if I was just starting the game now, I don’t think I would want to know before I read it that the shadow Gray Mann was speaking to was <Spoiler>. Mikado282 (talk) 20:52, 22 April 2014 (PDT)

I would much rather follow wikipedia's approach, and simply offer a disclaimer-we are a source of knowledge, people come to it with the expectation to read about the content. Looking at a wiki like tvtropes, it is noticeably problematic to read the content with spoilers on. (See also: WP:No disclaimers in articles) Darkid (Talk | Contribs) 21:21, 22 April 2014 (PDT)

That kind of goes to why I am not committed to support -- given its nature, one should expect spoilers. Mikado282 (talk) 21:39, 22 April 2014 (PDT)

I think it would be good enough just to give a reference in the first or second sentence of the individual articles for major NPCs that they are important characters in the comics; which would factual, notable, informative, and not a disclaimer/spoiler alert. I think Merasmus and Saxton Hale are good as is; so, maybe you could work something into Administrator’s introduction. Mikado282 (talk) 19:00, 23 April 2014 (PDT)

Somewhat tangentially, I quibble with the comment “If you don't read the comics you wouldn't care about the administrator at all.” I don’t think I got into the comics and videos until my first Halloween event (Fourth Annual Halloween Special). I went the wiki to learn how to fight the bosses, and in that manner learned about the past content. Similarly, that is how I learned that the Administrator/Announcer had any sort of significance. Moreover, it was through the wiki that I learned that the game had any storyline at all. In a nutshell, I found the game, googled for strategy, found the wiki, found the storyline, found the comics. YMV; but, maybe it happens that way for others, too. Truly, the wiki is the bookshelf where I keep my "worn" copies of the comics. Mikado282 (talk) 21:39, 22 April 2014 (PDT)

Strangifiable Items.

I think in the table (To the right of the screen under the items picture) Listed where if it is Paintable, craftable, tradable, ect. There should be a section in the mix where it says...

Strangifiable = Yes Or Strangifiable = No The Lion (talk) 00:47, 6 April 2014 (PDT)

Why it needs to? I don't see any point of it. When we need to check that the weapons availability, it's already in availability section. Rikka Takanashi (talk) • (contributions) 02:09, 6 April 2014 (PDT)

And what about for cosmetics? The Lion (talk) 02:48, 6 April 2014 (PDT)

The infobox already supports it. You just put strangifier into the availability section. --Omolong (talk) 08:01, 6 April 2014 (PDT)

Strange parts additional information

Do you think strange part charts should note if a strange part counts towards its total in MVM missions?

some are obvious

some are not so obvious and require research

for example, will "Strange Part: Medics Killed That Have Full ÜberCharge" work on robot medics?

- Lexar - talk 05:11, 1 May 2014 (PDT)

My understanding is that none of them do except for 'robots killed'. Since robots are bots, stranges won't rank up on them. Darkid (Talk | Contribs) 05:20, 1 May 2014 (PDT)

That's my understanding too but ive seen some people on the steam discussiond complain because their strange parts don't work because they didn't know. Just some sort of indication to say "hey, hate to disappoint you but other then this and this NO other stranmge parts work on mvm" if you catch my drift. - Lexar - talk 05:22, 1 May 2014 (PDT)

Add a note (see strange#Notes) that they don't rank on bot kills. Darkid (Talk | Contribs) 05:32, 1 May 2014 (PDT)

While normal strange parts do not work for robot kills, I can confirm that Strange Part: Allied Healing Done still functions normally in MvM. I suspect that Sappers Destroyed and Allies Extinguished do as well. --Leadfoot9 (talk) 08:36, 2 June 2014 (PDT)

Weapon demonstration reservations

The weapon demonstration reservations template doesn't work on some custom signatures.

This

{{Reservation|~~~~}}

Produced this  This demonstration has been reserved: Someone forgot to put their signature here!

However this

{{Reservation/sandbox}} ~~~~

Works

 This demonstration has been reserved: - Lexar - talk 21:33, 2 May 2014 (PDT)

Is there an issue with the reservation template? - Lexar - talk 21:34, 2 May 2014 (PDT)

{{Reservation|~~~~}}

 This demonstration has been reserved: Darkid (Talk | Contribs) 05:07, 13 May 2014 (PDT)

Should work now. Darkid (Talk | Contribs) 05:07, 13 May 2014 (PDT)

 This demonstration has been reserved: Someone forgot to put their signature here! NOP =( - Lexar - talk 05:16, 13 May 2014 (PDT)

Span tags (that are not inside brackets) seem to cause this, for some odd reason. I can't think of an obvious way around this, though. Unrelatedly, did you know you can use <u></u> for underlines? Darkid (Talk | Contribs) 05:54, 13 May 2014 (PDT)

New policy for deletion of community sites

</nowiki> A discussion took place on the IRC channel over the course of yesterday, but it is just a summary of what has been being discussed infrequently over the past few months. The logs are here: Part 1 Part 2.
The general gist of the discussion is: Community pages are mostly fishing for attention, rather than being impartial descriptions of the webpages. There were 2 major options suggested in the above discussion:

1. Scrap all community sites in favor of general pages on trading, inventory, etc. ("The wiki should cover the process involved, not the specific instances.")
2. Scrap all community sites that have not been directly mentioned by valve. ("The wiki cannot simply ignore certain parts of the community, but high level of notability is important.")

It is clearly a problem to have every site define notability for themselves, so there needs to be some standard by which sites are given pages. However, this might not need to be as strict as official valve mention, since valve does for the most part condone the market (10% transaction fee and all).
It is worthwhile to note that valve assumedly does not want all trading done via marketplace as not all items can be traded in the marketplace.
My personal opinion is that community sites have no place on the wiki, since notability is always tricky to define. It is easier to talk generally about the principles of trading with an addendum that there are third party trading sites. Darkid (Talk | Contribs) 04:58, 13 May 2014 (PDT)
Edit: Current policy link

I think that we should note notable sites (even if its just as a bullet-point list on the relevant article). The wiki's been getting some negative PR recently, and we should probably try to counter it. Why not post threads on community discussion sites (spuf/reddit/etc) and ask what the community thinks we should do? At worst, it becomes obvious to community that coming up with reasonable notability guidelines is hard. — Armisael (T · C) 15:41, 13 May 2014 (PDT)

Shouldn't KritzKast still be online (keep the page)? This website has in-game items, promotions, and many more. Including that blog posts also comment about the website (not like tf2 trading websites). The only external tf2 website I've seen on the blogpost that isn't the KritzKast was the TF2backpack viewer (the very first one). Gabrielwoj (talk) 07:22, 14 May 2014 (PDT)

I think just one page called "Community Sites" with a compiled list of notable websites is an OK balance. I kind of missed all the drama so I guess I have a fresh view on this. It should then be up to whoever adds a site to that to provide references for the notability of the site. KritzKast for example can provide its official blog mentions. I do wonder why custom maps weren't wiped from the Wiki either, they aren't notable generally unless Valve rolls them into the game proper. Something like this maybe:

• A semi-protected page which only moderators can edit, with sub-sections for website types.
• Users nominate websites on the discussion page, providing evidence for notability; they would need to write the section as it would appear on the page so that the community can revise it.
• Consensus vote, approved sections are added to the page.

So what is notability? It's subjective, but it can be measured to an extent. For instance, mentions on the blog, praise in the community, promo items, and surveys. Not every bootstrapped trading site is worthy of mention of course, but some of them have plenty of influence in the trading, and therefore TF2, community (e.g fixing key prices). We will need to liaise with other communities to draw up a policy on this, as it's very clear that we have failed to do so (and it's always been on the back burner).

This seems like the least conflicting way to solve this issue. In retrospect, wiping the sites from the Wiki was a good idea as it sparked debate across the TF2 community (funny how people notice when stuff gets nuked), which is what we need. TF2 is a game defined by its community, and it's pretty clear the community cares about what appears on this site. I think we'd be doing a disservice if we didn't at least attempt to strike a balance between what the community wants and maintaining an objective stance on the Wiki's content. i-ghost (talk) 12:18, 2 June 2014 (PDT)

i-ghost has written a lot of stuff that I agree with, so I'm not going to repeat all of it. But I agree with the idea of a community sites page as a satisfactory compromise, and I in fact did create one a year ago at Community sites. Notability might be hard to pin down, but removing all traces of community sites from the wiki is taking the easy way out of doing the work needed to filter them out. I don't agree with the notion that because no users spoke up before about the community articles, they didn't care about them. The only notice they had was this small post on the discussion page (which I very much doubt most wiki editors read, let alone casual wiki users) and a discussion in the #tfwiki-staff IRC channel. From what I've seen in the community it's clear a lot of users DO want community sites on the wiki in one form or another, and we would be foolish to ignore that. —Moussekateer·talk 18:07, 2 June 2014 (PDT)

I also agree that we need to document community sites. You can't have TF2 without TF2Maps, KritzKast, etc., and I think it's fair to assume that wiki users have an expectation that such content should be present on the wiki. The drama that this caused seems to support this assumption. So let's not fall short of users' expectations and let's give them community websites.

A community sites page sounds OK, but it still suffers from the same problem as before: determining notability. I still stand by the old objective suggestion of limiting it to websites that are linked from the TF2 blog. It effectively outsources the crap-filtering to Valve, and they've done an OK job at that. That criterion has been suggested before but it's never actually been enforced yet. I think we should try it. I have no strong opinion regarding the format (one single community sites page vs. one page per site), as I think the problem stems from the presence of such content (and the policies governing its presence) rather than the format it's delivered in.

Re: visibility: I'd be OK putting a link to this discussion thread in the sitenotice if that'd help. Surely a large enough sample of people from each notable community will see it and should chime in within a week or so. — Wind 20:05, 2 June 2014 (PDT)

Somewhat late to the party, but I've decided to copy-paste the logs of the staff channel discussions, just to put everything in one place. -- LordKelvin 10:46, 23 June 2014 (PDT)

Kill icon tooltip

Hello, I have recently made a kill notice sandbox that has a tooltip inbuilt for it. the biggest use for it would be an example here. This

{{Kill notice/sandbox|weapon=wrench}}

will still produce normally

This

{{Kill notice/sandbox|weapon=wrench|kill-tool=Only Engineer}}

will produce a tooltip once hovered

Tell me what you all think. One of the many uses would be in the shotgun item infobox seeing as its a multiclass item with only a single class being able to use the hadouken with it. - Lexar - talk 01:01, 25 May 2014 (PDT)

 Support Looks good to me. I wonder if we could do something to make it clearer that there contextual data available on hover - the change in background colours distinguishes it from normal killicons, and the cursor helps if the user bothers to hover over it, but I don't think it makes it obvious there is extra data available... perhaps we can add a little question mark () floated to the right? That might work. -RJ 05:48, 25 May 2014 (PDT)

 Support I think this is very useful and I also support RJackon's idea with a special symbol that calls a reader's attention. ~{ TidB | t | c }~ 05:53, 25 May 2014 (PDT)

 Support I like the idea of the tooltip but dissagree with the symbol's inclusion. People may be confused and assume the symbol appears in gameplay kill notices.--Piemanmoo 12:24, 25 May 2014 (PDT)

 Support Don't see why not. I like the symbol and don't think it'd cause much confusion — Wind 13:26, 25 May 2014 (PDT)

 Support I'm on it, but is there a way to center the killicon on the new banner? Otherwise, it looks great. Gabrielwoj (talk) 13:39, 25 May 2014 (PDT)

Infobox qualities.

Been making some info box edit here

Main focus is the qualities section. What do you all think?

- Lexar - talk 02:16, 9 June 2014 (PDT)

I like the idea, but I think it's a bit too big. I mean, almost everything in the infobox is just plain text and your addition with its colored background and the TF font in caps stands out heavily. It'd be good if this addition is more unobtrusive, maybe just by making it smaller. I like the idea of this, though.

~{ TidB | t | c }~ 04:03, 9 June 2014 (PDT)

Good idea, but takes a little too much vertical space at the moment. Maybe a horizontal swatch which has the quality name on hover would be better. i-ghost (talk) 08:25, 9 June 2014 (PDT)

It takes too much space while bringing little useful information. Maybe if you made it have two boxes per row it'd be a little smaller, but I'm not sure it would fit horizontally with all possible pairs of qualities, and in languages where these words are longer than in english. Maybe make it a single row of colored dots, each of which is tooltip'd with the quality and links to the quality page? Like "Quality: ⬤ ⬤ ⬤ ⬤" but with some extra CSS to make it not show the underline. — Wind 08:29, 9 June 2014 (PDT)

i think i can do this, i'll give it a shot. - Lexar - talk 08:30, 9 June 2014 (PDT)

Nice idea. I agree with i-ghost reason. I've made a [mockup] (Imgur) for a smaller version (image only, I haven't edited any template). Wind's idea is pretty good, but, how would be if the item has Community and Self-Made quality? ▪ - 08:34, 9 June 2014 (PDT)

Looks damn fine right now. Doesn't take much space and is east to read. It would probably be good to center the boxes. Nikno (talk) 09:04, 9 June 2014 (PDT)

I agree, I like the horizontal row now. —Moussekateer·talk 09:06, 9 June 2014 (PDT)

Add your pro or cons below support or don't but this needs to be voted on

 Support Looks good, suits the infobox and gives useful information on the item. I like. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 09:32, 9 June 2014 (PDT)

 Support I agree with Cooper Kid. Provides useful information while adding not too much weight on the infobox. ~{ TidB | t | c }~ 09:33, 9 June 2014 (PDT)

 Support Looks great. I've seen your update, I would love to see that going live! ▪ - 15:05, 9 June 2014 (PDT)

Don't know how my sig got in there, but I  Support this idea. Whomever implements it should use the {{Dictionary/quad}}. 17:06, 9 June 2014 (PDT)

 Support moov gear up — Wind 19:24, 9 June 2014 (PDT)

 Support yesyesyesyesyesyes. I'd personally prefer the version in the template, but gabrielwoj's mockup doesn't look bad at all either. (contribs ▪ talk) 23:53, 9 June 2014 (PDT)

Unsolicited Suggestion: While you are at it, I am thinking the Ammunition section could be reduced in height by removing the redundant words:

Loaded:	6 Rounds (or charges or whatever)
Carried:	32 Rounds
Reload:	Single

Or by swapping the numbers and text:

6	: Ammo loaded
32	: Ammo carried
Single	: Reload type

but that might be too different (but would give more room for other longer languages). --Mikado282 (talk) 19:49, 9 June 2014 (PDT)

very nice suggestion Mikado, I will definitely look into this. - Lexar - talk 00:57, 10 June 2014 (PDT)

With the top table, as shown, there would be room for contextual units (bullets, shells, rounds, charges), would make the table more readable, but would mean more maintenance and a need for consensus on style for the units (unless automatically inferable from other attributes. The bottom table could also be made more fidgety, I mean informative: units in parenthesis, e.g., (bullets) (may be not much value added), or contextual text (Ammo loaded for the Righteous Bison becomes something like shots per recharge (uses no ammo). -- Requirements Creep, aka Mikado282 (talk) 09:58, 14 June 2014 (PDT)

HTTP/HTTPS issues

I don't know where else to put this, but there seem to be some issues with the wiki regarding HTTP versus HTTPS (at least in IE10):

• For HTTP, all custom fonts are missing (e.g. the Build font in tabs and infoboxes).
• For HTTPS, all weapon demonstration videos are blocked by default (with the reason "Only secure content is displayed").

Toomai Glittershine 17:04, 13 June 2014 (PDT)

Yeah, I'm getting the same issue. I've tried all the ways I can to clear the cache, and I'm still getting the same issue with the custom font. I'm using the latest version of Firefox, if that helps anyone. It works fine in Chrome, though. --Omolong (talk) 17:13, 13 June 2014 (PDT)

Wiki acting strange

I've noticed oddities today (06/18/2014). I'll list some problems I noticed. 1- Search bar doesn't fit correctly above; 2- Any page that you want to edit is marked "watch this page" by default (including this one I just edited); 3- Third Saxxy Awards page has no "See Also" on the page, but it supposed to be there (go on Edit); 4- Some minor stuff (See the trivia part in any page, like Memory Maker; 5- Possibly other stuff. ▪ - 11:49, 18 June 2014 (PDT)

1. Staff's looking into that; 2. Make sure you uncheck "Add pages and files I edit to my watchlist" in your preferences; 3. fix'd

{ TidB | t | c } 11:57, 18 June 2014 (PDT)

I never enabled that. I have no idea why it enabled so sudden. ▪ - 20:29, 18 June 2014 (PDT)

Page Location for New Taunt Voicelines

Initially, I believed that the new voicelines (let's say for Scout) for the action taunts would go under Scout responses.

However, looking at the page, notable taunt voicelines such as the Schadenfreude are missing (admittedly it's also used in Kill-related responses, but it's not recognized on its own). Instead, that voice line is located on the Scout taunts page.

The only taunt voicelines located on the Responses pages are the High Five taunts for Spy and Pyro, being the only classes with unique lines for that taunt.

Otherwise, all taunt-related voicelines are located on the class's respective Taunt page, not the Responses page.

Looking over the previous action taunts, never have so many voicelines are triggered by and associated with an action taunt. Only the Schadenfreude has an associated voiceline by each class, but it's limited to one.

The Taunts pages have to be updated anyway with the new action taunts.

So there's three possible pages where the voice lines could go:

• The taunt's individual page as a backpack item

• Each class's Taunt page

• Each class's Response page

This of course, brings up the problem of redundancy.

If only the taunt-associated voicelines are moved to the taunt pages, should the Spy's and Pyro's High Five used (and unused) responses be moved to the class taunt pages?

01:43, 21 June 2014 (PDT)

Reminder: Administrator got new responses for Payload Race this past update.

No one's touched the page since December so I didn't know if anyone here knew. Just something I'd point out for the to-do list. VinLAURiA (talk) 22:26, 28 June 2014 (PDT)

Feel free to add them if you'd like.--Piemanmoo 00:06, 29 June 2014 (PDT)

As far as I can tell, they're currently unused and require conditions not available in the current PLR game mode. Still, I'm getting around to upload them for my second pass of missing voicelines after I complete the framework for the class Taunt pages. 13:47, 1 July 2014 (PDT)

Scout taunt voice lines in engi's page?

so i was browsing the engineer taunts and found scout voice lines for most of the new taunts, if anyone know's how to fix this please do — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sir scumbag (talk) • (contribs)

This discussion page isn't the right place to ask about this. Go to the Engineer Taunt's discussion page instead. If its technical issues, then try elsewhere. Thanks. Ashes (talk) 12:12, 10 July 2014 (PDT)

Responsive Wiki

Hi guys, after many edit spams i finally have it going properly and the full wiki functions with it Responsive wiki page.

Mess around and resize your browser, it will not break (at least to know knowledge).

so, what are your thoughts? - Lexar - talk 08:08, 14 July 2014 (PDT)

It's nice, however, I think the Full Moon icon should be centered and with a space between the Moon Status (The Moon Status centered as well). And the latest wiki caps awarded, make the users have a link to their userpages. Other than that, it's great. ▪ - 08:35, 14 July 2014 (PDT)

Items' original names, etc. and trivia

here instead of Help talk:Style guide/Trivia for greater exposure For a while now, trivia relating to items' original names, Workshop descriptions, and such have been deemed as not being notable. I'm personally for these being considered valid trivia, and I'm not sure where this convention (which isn't even noted in the trivia guidelines!) came from. The original names of community-contributed items are even mentioned in the main section of the articles, and it would only make sense to include explanations for the possible references included. I don't think I'm not the only one with this opinion. Due to how this isn't even mentioned in the trivia guidelines or never being properly discussed, confusion is further created about the notability of trivia like this. Due to the things I mentioned, I thought it's finally time to form a concrete guideline relating to this.

tl;dr: Is trivia relating to the original, now unofficial details of the item notable? Why? Why not? (contribs ▪ talk) 10:17, 14 July 2014 (PDT)

 Support - I agree, some items have only its creation due the name or the thing it was based on. In fact, some pages have the original names as a trivia, like the Falconer. ▪ - 10:27, 14 July 2014 (PDT)

I covered this over on the IRC somewhat, but I'll restate it here for everyone else. I think that original names would be pretty relevant to include, seeing as they are noted on the page. I'm not so sure about including descriptions, unless the information backs up other trivia regarding the item or item name (like with the Combustible Kabuto, the description references KLK, which the item's design does as well). In regards to sets, that's a lot more awkward. It fits with some items to include the trivia, such as with the Peacenik's Ponytail/Texas Tech-hand, due to the fact that the set was included ingame, but one of the items wasn't included in the set (for obvious reasons). I'm not sure that it's particularly interesting trivia to just say that "These items were contributed as part of this set, but they weren't marked as a set ingame", considering that the pages would already cover whether or not the item is in a set. Additionally, I think I've seen some items that are just put into collections on the workshop because of similar themes or something similar, even though the items wouldn't actually work as a set ingame. --Omolong (talk) 10:35, 14 July 2014 (PDT)

 Support I don't see any reason why this king of trivia can't be included.

Side question: do we need to translate workshop item/item set names for other languages? Maybe, just add translation in brackets alongside with the original name; I can't find anything about this in guidelines. Irvitzer (talk) 14:51, 14 July 2014 (PDT)

weapon demonstration

can i reserve a demonstration on the classic = an i am new to the wiki — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cmj2003 (talk) • (contribs)

Please go to the weapon demonstration discussion page to reserve weapon demonstrations. This discussion page isn't for that. Ashes (talk) 12:59, 22 July 2014 (PDT)

Released inconsistency

It is all about the {{Item infobox template!
Shown in the item infobox: | released = issue
In the articles, by whoever wants to, there is added a link to a major update or the patch date. I find it confusing that it is not clear what is entered there.
The official documentation says:
When the item was released. Basic text parameter. Not displayed unless defined specifically.
So which is it:
1. Released: Mann vs. Machine Update
2. Released: August 15, 2012 Patch
?
Thanks for any help & informations. Magicalpony (talk) 06:56, 30 July 2014 (PDT)

I prefer Released: Mann vs. Machine Update since I feel more connected to major updates; when I read a specific date that was two years ago I don't think I can remember what happenend back then.

However, this will make the item infobox a little bit more inconsistent than just writing the date everywhere. SackZement <Talk> 07:03, 30 July 2014 (PDT)

It would make it a lot more consistent with pages in general if it noted the patch date rather than the update name, yeah. The update name should be listed in the main description and the Update history (at the very least) as well, so it's not like the actual update associated with it wouldn't be visible at the top of the page, if the patch date was in the infobox. In contrast, if the update name is in the infobox, it would mean that the patch date is only listed in the Update history, which can be a hassle to scroll down to if you just want to find out the date an item came out (for example, if an item has four styles that are all paintable, you'd have to scroll past all of the tables for the painted variants to get to that info). --Omolong (talk) 07:30, 30 July 2014 (PDT)

Sounds reasonable, but sometimes the update name is not listed in the main description (and sometimes not even in the update history) and you have to scroll down to the update history aswell. Can't we have both in the item infobox like in most patch notes (June 23, 2011 Patch (Über Update))? Give it a line break between the patch date and the patch name and the item infobox will still look smooth. SackZement <Talk> 04:45, 31 July 2014 (PDT)

It'd probably be a good idea to make sure that all pages do have the update name in the description and the update history at some point. That idea about putting them both in the infobox could work, though. It would just depend on how it actually looked when put on the page. It could be the best solution, really. --Omolong (talk) 07:32, 31 July 2014 (PDT)

Preview here, feel free to edit at will. I tend to the version with the line break. The one in one line (last one, with nowrap) might be the best as long as it still fits in the infobox, which will be not the case for third community weapon update or something. SackZement <Talk> 08:34, 31 July 2014 (PDT)

I think the first one is best there, really. I think it'd be more consistent if the update names were all on a separate line underneath the patch date, rather than some of them being on the same line, some of them being on a separate line, and some having to wrap from the patch date line to the second line. So yeah, the one with the line break looks best to me. Might be worth getting some staff input on this before we go ahead with changing any pages for it, though. --Omolong (talk) 08:43, 31 July 2014 (PDT)

 Support the version with a line break. (contribs ▪ talk) 09:14, 31 July 2014 (PDT)

 Support SackZement's version with a line break. — Wind 15:24, 3 August 2014 (PDT)

Availability template(?)

It is all about the {{Item infobox template!
Issue: Availability
Every language needs to update after an update. Simply: Copy over the english information in the other languages (hats/weapons/others). Wouldnt it be more efficient if the info is stored in one place (like th dictionary) and it is automaticly applied for the other languages. I find it inefficient how it is done at the time.
The official documentation says:
The means of obtaining the item. Basic text parameter. Not displayed unless defined specifically.
I think this is outdated and should be thought over at least once.
Thanks for any help & informations. Magicalpony (talk) 06:56, 30 July 2014 (PDT)

This could be a good idea. It would mean that you'd only have to make one edit to update all of the language pages for a single item. It would also make it easier to update a bunch of items from one update that need a new availability (like the Love & War cosmetics being updated to show that they can be received in drops), rather than having to edit every single item and all of their language pages. Something like Template:QuAD could work, but I'd have no idea how to implement it. --Omolong (talk) 07:30, 30 July 2014 (PDT)

While this could be implemented with relative ease using a dictionary, I personally don't think it's required as those strings would only have one very niche use. The manual updating works just fine, I think. (contribs ▪ talk) 09:23, 31 July 2014 (PDT)

This sounds like {{Dictionary/quad}} — Wind 15:24, 3 August 2014 (PDT)

How much strategy in Maps articles?

Due the recent activity on Gorge & 2Fort i asked myself: How much is really a map description and what is in the direct area of strategy?
The Style guide for maps doesnt reveal any significant information about the matter.
Text like: "...often sniper lurk there" or "often a sentry gun is there" are valid information about how to decribe a map? Or should it only be in the community strategy article of a map? Relevant example link: Gorge ; cleanup needed? Magicalpony (talk) 21:13, 11 August 2014 (PDT)

I think stating common spots is not really "strategy" and as long as it's not overused it can actually help to describe (the playstyle of) the map.SackZement <Talk> 02:09, 12 August 2014 (PDT)

Have to agree with SackZement here - the likes of Snipers on the balcony of 2Fort isn't just strategy, but a key map feature present in virtually all games. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 08:24, 12 August 2014 (PDT)

MediaWiki extensions

Is there any plan to introduce MediaWiki extensions such as Mobile Web (Mobile Frontend) or the Visual Editor? Canis (talk) 00:59, 25 September 2014 (PDT)

Craft No. for limited item

New things out of the box are #86 Limited Quantity and can not be bought or craft, I think you need to write NO