Team Fortress Wiki:Discussion

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Editing big articles

There's a rule about editing articles, that you cannot edit page many times, because it's difficult to work with history. I'd like this rule to be corrected. It's more difficult to edit big articles like "class strategy" in one time, much easier to edit it by parts. Mendel777

HL1 Maps that work in TFC: Delete them?

There's a few articles about Half-Life maps that can be copied over to Team Fortress Classic, and they work: [Boot_camp_(Classic)]], Bounce_(Classic), and Crossfire_(Classic), just to name a few. Are these really worth mentioning? I mean... yeah, they work, but a Garry's Mod or Half-Life 2 Deathmatch map could work in Team Fortress 2 as long as the content (textures and models) is either a) part of the HL2 content that's installed with every Orange Box Source Engine game or b) has the content paked into the BSP. Yet we don't mention HL2DM maps that work in TF2. So: do we axe the TFC maps that are ones copied over from HL and work or not? RagnarHomsar 19:55, 4 September 2011 (PDT)

Unless they're directly related to a specific Team Fortress game, in my opinion, they shouldn't be mentioned. Sven 10:57, 5 September 2011 (PDT)

 Support They are HL maps, not TFC. This wiki is about Team Fortress.  –  Cructo [T][C] 12:06, 18 September 2011 (PDT)

 Support Same as Cructo's reason.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 12:11, 18 September 2011 (PDT)

 Support Get rid of them. Same as Cructo. Balladofwindfishes 12:14, 18 September 2011 (PDT)

 Comment I am sertainly sure we had this discussion before, and decided, that HL maps are threatened as custom maps, because they are widely used on TFC servers. DrAkcel ^{(T | C)} 09:28, 21 September 2011 (PDT)

Wasn't this for QTF, where there were no official maps?  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 12:12, 22 September 2011 (PDT)

Paint Pages

Hello everyone. One day I've tried to make a page for every single paint, like this: http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/index.php?title=Dark_Salmon_Injustice&action=historysubmit&diff=362725&oldid=249546

Why do I want this? I meet people everyday, who found a single paint. They have 8-9 hats and they want to know, what to paint. And here is the problem. Not all the countries has fast internet connection. If I have 1 Scout hat and 1 paint, I have to load 578 pictures of hat. And that's just one class! Now I need to open another class and find there my hats and a single paint. Basic [List of Paintable Items] is cool, when you have only 1 hat and lots of paints, but this is a rare situation. If I found Salmon Injustice, I'd better look at all Salmon hats, instead of all possibilities.

The point is, that there are so many hats, and not so many paints. That page in history is completely unfinished (I've began it in February, without any Wiki editing knowledge). Make [Hide] tablets for classes and here it is: we have comfortable paint system (and trivia about every can, without summarizing).

I hope you will think about it. I have these pages ready on 80%. Paint Can page could be shrink and there will be two lists - one is comfortable for those who have a lot of paint, and those, who have only 1 can. (I'll watch the answers 7 hours later - 2 am here) GordonFrohman 12:16, 5 September 2011 (PDT)

Well this causes a lot of work. Creating the pages and translating every page into every language. But most of all, whenever a new hat is released, you'll have to update every paint + translation. SackZement <Talk> 12:31, 5 September 2011 (PDT)

So difficult... I think I will be able to do it. GordonFrohman 22:53, 5 September 2011 (PDT)

We already have pages that list every hat in whatever paint colour. Click the class icons under the "Paintable item previews" section on the Paint Can page. -RJ 13:24, 5 September 2011 (PDT)

Stop posting that link, I've already told everything about it. It has giant amount of hats and paints I don't have. I have several hats and only 1 paint and don't want to look through 600 hats per class for using 1 paint GordonFrohman 22:53, 5 September 2011 (PDT)

Do many people, let alone people who play and are interested in TF2, have such slow Internet that 40 or so small PNG files take a toll on their speed? Balladofwindfishes 13:57, 5 September 2011 (PDT)

While it certainly looks pretty, I think it's going to be a bit too much trouble for what it's worth, what with all the Translating/Adding in new content things (and since there's a paintable hat added almost every 2 weeks...). It's redundant as well, considering we've got these kinds of pages. Yes, I understand that you said "I have to load 578 pictures of hat", but, like Ballad said, in this day and age of internet, I don't think people who play TF2 worry much about small images loading up. If it's really that much of a concern, then why not just go to the respective hat's page and look at the painted variants there? 15:31, 5 September 2011 (PDT)

And that's what people do. Open every single hat's page is way more comfortable, than use list of paintable items. I am painting every single hat in Lime and Defeat, I've found an extra can I now I am thinking what to paint. I had to look through 4386 pictures of hats, instead of 10. And Lime is in the very beginning of the list. My friend is painting all his hats in Team Spirit. He have to scroll down to every single class and look at all possible color varieties, except the color at the very end. And yeah, in some Russian cities is very slow internet, cause we're not that rich to afford good connection. We can't even fix the roads on the streets, and you're talking about extra-fast inetrnet. I don't think that you know how is it to download TF2 update for whole night. GordonFrohman 22:53, 5 September 2011 (PDT)

Saying you need to load up 578 pictures just to know how to use your paint is ridiculous. The only reason that would possibly happen is if you owned EVERY Scout hat. Most people only have a few hats, some of which aren't even paintable. If you have paint that you want to use, you only ever need to consider the few hats you own. The people that actually feel they absolutely need to see as many painted hats as possible can always direct themselves to the previously mentioned Lists of paintable items. Any other pages would be entirely redundant. -- - _{(talk | contribs)} -- 22:12, 5 September 2011 (PDT)

578 - amount of pictured hats in that Scout List. I want to make dedicated page for every can. You're right, we have few hats, but amount of paint is even less, isn't it? I want to look, what can I do with this paint with some of my hats, neither all other paints nor other hats. Searching for a hat I have in hats list is even more useful, rather than using that Paintable List. (Stop posting links to that list. Didn't you read what I think of it?) GordonFrohman 22:53, 5 September 2011 (PDT)

What I meant is it's not unreasonable to simply open the articles for the hats you want to see painted. The current paint galleries are meant for doing exactly this. I think your initial example of trying to compare 8 or 9 hats is in fact a pretty typical situation, and loading 8 or 9 tabs is not unwieldy at all. Certainly not for anyone that has both a computer and an internet connection both strong enough to play TF2. Adding a page for every colour of paint would mean 27 new pages, all of which would need to be maintained when a new hat is added, all of which would need to be translated and none of which would provide any additional value to the Wiki beyond a minor convenience. I simply don't see pages like this being worth the long term effort. -- - _{(talk | contribs)} -- 01:59, 6 September 2011 (PDT)

I don't think we should be assuming everyone viewing the wiki is also someone who plays TF2, nor that they use the same computer or internet connection to view the wiki at all times. Nevertheless I think creating new separate pages would be time-consuming for limited benefit. It would make sense for a site that can dynamically-generate content and sort it in different ways but trying to recreate that here would be difficult and not worth it. seb26 02:29, 6 September 2011 (PDT)

I suspect that most people wont have all those hats, and even more likely is that they won't want to paint all their hats in one colour. Also, its best to be able to compare different paint jobs when they are right next to each other. So unless someone had a lot of hats and dedicated themselves to one colour it whoulden't be much use and as pointed out, it whould be a lot of work. Mysterious Island 06:16, 23 September 2011 (PDT)

Misc. Items 1st Person "Bug"

From the Essential Accessories page:

• Like the Rogue's Col Roule, Purity Fist, and Pip-Boy, the wristbands of the Essential Accessoriese are invisible to the player in first-person view.

Is this REALLY a bug? If it had properly rigged viewmodels and they are supposed to be called but aren't loaded, yeah I'd call it a bug. But there are no viewmodels for any of these weapons. It's not so much a bug as an art mistake/Valve not having enough time for the promos. Should we remove these "bugs"? RagnarHomsar 21:09, 13 September 2011 (PDT)

Well, the Rogue's Col Roule isn't a promo. It was community made, so seeing as Valve didn't try to make anything for them, that's important. However, the Gunslinger and shields all show up in first person. Maybe this is a misc problem, but we should ask Valve first about this. Fyahweather 21:11, 13 September 2011 (PDT)

The only thing I have against this is that the shields and Gunslinger are both weapons, and therefore pretty much have to have viewmodels in order to look right. Like I said, a bug would be if the viewmodels existed and are supposed to be loaded but aren't due to a programming error. This is just a lack of a viewmodel asset. Not really a bug so much as an oversight. RagnarHomsar 21:13, 13 September 2011 (PDT)

The Gunslinger is an entirely different, dedicated arm model with a cloned animation set. This is to aid in Gunslinger/Short Circuit combos, so the Gunslinger isn't actually ever attached like the Targe (whether or not it qualifies as a bug if the Targe doesn't attach with certain items drawn is a different discussion entirely). Go ahead and remove them, they aren't bugs, there are no first person or attachable assets for those cosmetic items. i-ghost 12:14, 2 October 2011 (PDT)

Naming crate series for stock weapons

I was just wondering, since the introduction of strange weapons, even stock items have been in crates. Instead of saying items are not in crates, could we instead list what crate strange versions of that weapon are in with a footnote (or whatever) saying that it's only available as a strange weapon? DVDV 00:58, 19 September 2011 (PDT)

This is already being accomplished by putting 'Uncrate (#X) (Strange)' in Availability, next to 'Stock', like every Strange weapon. This is located in the item infobox to the left. Shane Alvarado 12:38, 22 September 2011 (PDT)

Reload types for specific weapons

Nixshadow and myself were having a bit of a disagreement over this one. For weapons such as the sniper rifle and the flare gun (And all of their variants), I argue that these weapons should be listed as "no reload" rather than "single", since they don't actually have a clip at all on screen, and the animations are merely cosmetic. That is, you can switch away from these weapons immediately after firing and later on switch back and you won't need to see the reload animation (Unlike say, the crusader's crossbow, whose reload must be seen in full because it has a clip indicator). The issue might be confusing however as this would put it in the same category as the minigun and flamethrower, from a scripting point of view they're the same (save for a much longer delay between shots) but aesthetically they behave quite differently. Opinions? --Manta 01:55, 19 September 2011 (PDT)

I would say they have no reload time, but rather long attack intervals. An example with the rocket launcher, if you fire a rocket and immediately switch to something else for a while then back to the rocket launcher, you can fire another rocket immidiately after weapon switch time is over so long as you still have ammo in your clip. If there is no ammo in your clip, you must reload before you can fire again. Neither the flaregun or sniper rifle require you to reload but you still need to wait for the attack interval before you can shoot again. Another example, the minigun has no reload and picking up ammo lets you use the ammo immidiately. In the case of the rocket launcher or shotgun you still need to reload before you can use it. The huntsman is one of the more confusing weapons, but I think it has a very short reload time. RedMage 02:12, 20 September 2011 (PDT)

I whould also have to agree that they have no reload time, but just to make it clear as posible, there should also be a page explaining that it has no reload time and that the reloading animation is part of the display of an attack interval, and how the reloading annimation is a pure cosmetic feature. Just so people understand that they are the same as the minigun and flamethrower in how ammo is fired. Mysterious Island 02:54, 20 September 2011 (PDT)

Instead of a separate page, wouldn't a single sentence on the relevant articles explaining this be more neat?, e.g. "Whilst visually the weapons is reloaded between each shot, this is merely cosmetic, all that is required to fire the weapon again is a certain length of time to pass (Switching weapons does not influence this length of time)". Maybe a bit long winded.Manta 03:48, 20 September 2011 (PDT)

It really doesn't reload, but I don't believe the word "cosmetic" fits that sentence well. "Although this weapon doesn't reload, it has an attack interval between each shot" would suit better, but somewhat unnecessary, since this characteristic is already noted in the "Damage and function times" table.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 13:18, 20 September 2011 (PDT)

Eh... the weapons sort of reload, it's just that the animation time can be completed even if the weapon is not the current weapon. Where this gets real dicey is with the Huntsman and Crossbow, which don't reload while switched out, despite being single loaded weapons. I think it should be noted on the pages it applies to, but I also think it should be noted on pages where it looks like it could apply, but doesn't (like the Crossbow). Balladofwindfishes 14:14, 20 September 2011 (PDT)

The animation for the sniper rifle and flaregun is for attack intervals, not reloading. To prove my point, touching the supply cabinet effectively removes the need to reload. When you fire say a rocket launcher 4 times then immediately go to a supply cabinet, you don't fire immediately and you still have to wait for the attack intervals, but you skip the animation of the soldier putting rockets in. In the case of the sniper rifle and flaregun, they are both completely unchanged by touching the cabinet; you still need to wait for the pyro to put a flare in and for the sniper to pull the lever before you can shoot. You can "reload" while switching weapons because attack intervals are counting down alongside weapon switch time, which applies to every weapon. Reload time does not count alongside weapon switch time; if you attempt to reload then switch to another weapon before it finishes, the reload time resets. RedMage 00:39, 21 September 2011 (PDT)

So we're agreed that these weapons are no-reload types then? --Manta 01:43, 21 September 2011 (PDT)

Generel Crafting in article?

Just read that the Pilotka and the Stahlhelm is now craftable, but I didn't saw any recipe for it. Then I remembered that this must be a generel recipe for craft with a class token. I just thought that it could be maybe added, because not all people know how to craft a personal class hat. I also know that the chance of getting that hat is really low because there are many other(don't know the exact number), but couldn't it be listed. Maybe someone coult programm it to look like that: Stahlhelm (1/(all hats))% chance of getting, and then if you click you get the list of the other soldier hats you could get. or 1x Stahlhelm / (all hats number) ; and if you click on all hats number you would see all the other hats.

The way it is now it is a bit to uninformational for most of the people, you go strictly to the crafting page but there is not enough attention to the class hat crafting. Hope someone get's my idea. TheDoctor(without a small pic) 04:48, 22 September 2011 (PDT)

So you're suggesting that every hat page list every hat recipe and a chance of obtaining it through individual crafting recipes? seems rather unnecessary. Right now only set hats have this on their pages, because they have specific recipes that almost guarantee you the hat. RedMage 14:52, 22 September 2011 (PDT)

I think he's suggesting that clicking on "craft" in the item infobox under the "Availability" section should lead you to a section on the crafting page which explains this better. » Cooper Kid (blether·contreebs) 14:56, 22 September 2011 (PDT)

Yeah, Cooper Kid is right, can't we make it different for hats to get to class hat crafting then generell? TheDoctor(without a small pic) 02:42, 23 September 2011 (PDT)

I think the fact that if a page doesn't have a crafting blueprint, it should be implied...that it doesn't have a blueprint. You could probably add a tool tip next to crafting (Not on it, as it's a link and that messes up tooltips.) i.e: Crafting (?)

Though I am personally against that and think it should be obvious enough if we don't supply a crafting recipe, that it doesn't have one. - nixshadow (t|c) 02:53, 23 September 2011 (PDT)

If there is no recipe, you can't craft it that's what i think, and if there stands craft it is kinda confusing for new guys. TheDoctor(without a small pic) 03:09, 23 September 2011 (PDT)

Why not make a new page called Random crafting recipes with a list of all possible recipes, just as a reference for new users? » Cooper Kid (blether·contreebs) 03:55, 23 September 2011 (PDT)

Would be good, but is there a well known symbol for random in the world? Maybe like this then: (random symbol) craft! And then a redirect to the page. I would love to see an article only about hats you can't get because there is no specific blueprint. This would help a lot more then the redirect to crafting alone and you get lost. TheDoctor(without a small pic) 04:12, 23 September 2011 (PDT)

How about something like this? » Cooper Kid (blether·contreebs) 04:54, 23 September 2011 (PDT)

I would say: Wow! You put a lot of great work into that and i would love to see this linked to random class hats, instead of generell Crafting. TheDoctor(without a small pic) 15:01, 23 September 2011 (PDT)

Thanks a lot! It shouldn't be too hard to do - we'll just need to edit the links in the infoboxes on each hat page in question. I'll need to talk to someone higher up to make sure my page is ok first though. In the meantime, I'll try and get it finished! » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 03:30, 24 September 2011 (PDT)

Just a note, the Flip-Flops and Lucky 42 are not craftable. Balladofwindfishes 07:28, 24 September 2011 (PDT)

thanks, I've fixed that. The page is pretty much done now, I'll leave it for a bit but if there aren't any objections I'll set the ball rolling sometime tomorrow. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 14:52, 24 September 2011 (PDT)

Unsure: Proof of Purchase where to?

I saw the Meet the Medic video again and in the end you can see the proof of purchase on one dead soldier(3:36). I don't see that mentioned anywhere. Someone could add that in the Proof of Purchase or, or and, in the Meet the Medic article. I'm not sure enough where it could be placed best, hope someone can make that. Thanks in advance. TheDoctor(without a small pic) 19:08, 23 September 2011 (PDT)

The general concensus is that anything you can plainly see isn't worth noting - the same was said of the Soldiers wearing some of the new Uber Update hats in that part of the video as well. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 05:04, 24 September 2011 (PDT)

The new star hat was mentioned, and it is clearly visible. The proof of purchase is shorter seem and smaller. Maybe a picture on the proof of purchase gallery then? TheDoctor(without a small pic) 05:35, 24 September 2011 (PDT)

Here is a picture, and maybe someone thinks that it is noteworthy: Click me i'm a picture link . TheDoctor(without a small pic) 08:52, 24 September 2011 (PDT)

Where is that other hat mentioned? They discussed it on the talk page but decided it wasn't really worth noting. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 13:07, 24 September 2011 (PDT)

You are right. I thought it should be mentioned and totally missed the point. What do you think about this: A picture of it like shown above in the gallery of the proof or purchase then? TheDoctor(without a small pic) 02:28, 25 September 2011 (PDT)

Trivia section? Rolandius 06:11, 27 September 2011 (PDT)

Cleaning up Beta/Unused content

It seems when reading those pages, most of the content is "this item may have been" or "it's likely this weapon did this" however, we just don't know that as a fact, and we shouldn't be stating it as such. I think we need to look at them and revise most of them to not be filled with speculation. The articles should only contain what we know as fact, and not what we assume the weapon's function was. On another note, many of the unused weapon articles have "demonstration videos" which is basically a video of someone's mod who recreated the assumed stats of the weapon. I don't feel like these belong on the wiki, unless we make them ourselves. Balladofwindfishes 16:24, 25 September 2011 (PDT)

 Agreed Assumptions are never okay. As for the videos, unless they are made by us or valve then they really should't be there. 16:34, 25 September 2011 (PDT)

Currently unreleased content medals forgotten?

I just read the ESL article today and wondered over this sentences: "Valve will be offering in-game medals to all participants. You will need to play your matches and finish the season." Then i wanted to know how the medals look like and i moved to the Currently unreleased content article because i didn't saw a link to the medal. And now i'm confused. There is no picture of a medal, and it isn't mentioned at all there. Did Valve refused the ESL request or what happened? TheDoctor(without a small pic) 04:47, 27 September 2011 (PDT)

Valve is really slow with adding medals to the game, with other competitive medals sometimes taking a year before being released. It will be even less likely that they will be added to the game files soon if the competition hasn't ended yet. And as long as Valve doesn't add the models, we can't create images for them either. -- Hefaistus - talk 06:02, 27 September 2011 (PDT)

I remember there being a link in that article to an email from Robin Walker referring to the medals. Check it out. Rolandius 06:08, 27 September 2011 (PDT)

I read more about it and found out that the ESL promised for 2 seasons medals. Also your email only covers highlander. ESL said normal 6vs6 medals. But I get it: Valve Time ; thanks for the Infos. TheDoctor(without a small pic) 23:07, 27 September 2011 (PDT)

Engineer Community Strategy Cleanup

Have a look at This. I can't imagine this being useful to anyone reading the wiki looking for useful information. I'd personally like to gut the entire written content from it and start over because I feel it would be simpler than trying to make sense and order of this wall of text. --Manta 00:52, 28 September 2011 (PDT)

Clarification of Resupply

This is getting a bit annoying to see. In some instances pages will refer to the spawn cabinets as 'the Resupply Cabinet', yet in other instances it is called 'the Resupply Locker'. Could we get some discussion and voting on what the correct name is? Consistency, after all, is important.--Focusknock 06:01, 28 September 2011 (PDT)

"As a Sniper, the Razorback breaks after being stabbed. Grab a new one from a resupply locker". Thats from STS. -- Keisari 06:05, 28 September 2011 (PDT)

I have found that consistency isn't important to a lot of people as I have run into a lot of circumstances like the one you mentioned. In regards to this subject, I have been told that 'the Resupply locker' is the way to reference it. Rolandius 09:31, 28 September 2011 (PDT)

No point to vote on what the correct name is. Valve refers to it as a couple different things, but I told Rolandius and choose to edit with "Resupply locker" as that is what the file name is for it when you're making a map. Also, the Respawn page gallery lists them all as lockers. Neither one is wrong, and we don't need to make it a this-way-or-no-way thing. SS2R 03:06, 29 September 2011 (PDT)

ÜberCharge rate demonstration

I brought this up yesterday in IRC, in that there is no solid demonstration (akin to the jumping demonstrations, etc) showing damage sources and their relation in building ÜberCharge, stemming from beliefs that I have heard from many players that damage does not help your Medic build ÜberCharge faster, despite it stating otherwise on articles such as the Medigun. This is a myth that has had roots in the TF2 community for a long time. So as a result, here's me as the Heavy, Keisari as the Soldier and the star of the show Cthulhu1992 as the Medic in our bid for a video we think should be posted on the ÜberCharge article as demonstration material: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVw5jbEe0ng

I will upload the source file to my FTP for the TF2 Wiki Youtube account's official use, if desired. However, I noticed there were jumping demonstration videos that are not on the official account and embedded in the jumping article anyway. I'm not 100% sure on protocol regarding this type of stuff. Thoughts? ~Xenaero ( T | C ) 08:22, 28 September 2011 (PDT)

This video would be 100x better and more to the point if you just showed things side by side. On the left, healing with no damage being done, and on the right, healing with damage being done. That will give a live representation of the damage-Uber building up faster MUCH better. Check the Original demonstration video to see what I mean. Side by side is really the way to go. SS2R 03:00, 29 September 2011 (PDT)

Valid suggestion. How is this, then? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXoqX2PauZg ~Xenaero ( T | C ) 17:14, 30 September 2011 (PDT)

beating a dead horse: TF2 Wiki and googlebombing

so when searching for "tf2 wiki" the first site that pops up is tf2wiki.net

we need to fix this. lots of newcomers to tf2 are being directed to an outdated and poorly managed site full of opinion, speculation and misinformation.

i've brought this up before and been told "there's nothing we can do", but that is obviously not true. its called google bombing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_bomb , and it's how you change the results of a google search.

as you can see here: http://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/kzo9u/this_really_bugs_me/ the Team Fortress 2 community is aware of and upset by this fact. at least 1259 people agreed, and this image was number 1 on the tf2 subreddit for a day.

i know it might not be considered important, or maybe people think it's too hard, but it's something we can and should change.

i propose we start a project around googlebombing in order to make this the number 1 result in google for "tf2 wiki"

anyone agree?