Team Fortress Wiki:Discussion

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Proposing an "In Other Games" page of sorts...

Typically, TF2 appearances in other games, such as Worms: Reloaded or Dungeon Defenders, appear in said Trivia section of the page. However, for those with many appearances elsewhere, like the Pyro, we end up with a long list of Trivia detailing the exploits of Hudda Hudda Huh in other games. Why not just take every instance where TF2 has appeared in another game, and make a new page out of it? -- InShane 05:54, 1 March 2012 (PST)

We already have that, just as a subsection. -- Hefaistus - talk 06:15, 1 March 2012 (PST)

Well then, blast! I guess my question now would be if each of these instances should be mentioned on each trivia page. I felt that it was fine when the references were few, but the trivia some pages, like the aforementioned Pyro page, is over half-occupied with appearances in different games. -- InShane 07:15, 1 March 2012 (PST)

I guess a section dedicated to other games should go in each of the dedicated Class reference pages. I'll look into it tonight. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 07:24, 1 March 2012 (PST)

Patch layout upgrade or modification

I saw this nice: "patch name"-template, and i just thought that for every language the change for the next patch is done(after = ...). I mean these parts: before, current, after ; these are manually added in every language after the next patch is announced. It reminded me of the Patches page itself which works now as a template and must be edited only once and the rest will change itself. So couldn't this also be done on a greater scale? Please tell me what you think and know about it! TheDoctor 19:36, 1 March 2012 (PST)

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Get rid of orphan translated disambiguation pages

A lot of disambiguation pages have been translated but are total orphans. This makes them hard to maintain and almost completely pointless because no one can get to them. Only the main version will come up when using the search box. For example, BB/de is the German version of BB. No one is going to type "BB/de" into the search field, they will type "BB" if anything. Since nothing links to that page, it should be removed. I propose that all translated disambiguation pages (like BB/de) be removed if they are not connected to real articles, like 119th_medals/de is. The one downside is that all of these pages will show up as untranslated pages, but I think that's okay, since they already do show up that way on most languages. As another option, we could modify the bots to omit disambiguation pages in that report.

It's a shame to lose all this translated material, and it would be nice if non-English visitors could get to those pages, but that's just not how the Go/Search functionality works on the wiki. Thoughts? – fashnek _(talk·c) 09:45, 5 March 2012 (PST)

Less is always better. I started this in the irc chat, and i fully support it that these non logical articles should be removed. TheDoctor 09:48, 5 March 2012 (PST)

If we can get a tag for the English pages that we can put in so that those pages will not start clogging up the missing translations list, then I am all in favour for it. Particularly since there are 'bout four dozen of those BB-pages. -- Hefaistus - talk 10:09, 5 March 2012 (PST)

Yes, the tag would be that they are in Category:Disambiguation. This would lead to false positives on disambig. pages that are actually used, but redlinks on articles are straightforward to address. – fashnek _(talk·c) 10:13, 5 March 2012 (PST)

I just wanted to note that i started a small discussion with DrAkcel and he said he will take care of the matter, in the russian language. TheDoctor 11:36, 7 March 2012 (PST)

But are you planning on making the bots ignore all disambigs? Some disambigs, such as Badge, really shoud be translated, and the translation of the name of these pages should redirect to their translations (eg. Значок redirects to Badge/ru, which should be done for all other languages as well).  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 11:39, 7 March 2012 (PST)

That makes me wonder, EpicEric. Why should a russian person create a Badge/ru article and then make a redirect from the russian language to this article. Isn't it more logical to make the article under the russian name for badge???? If this is not possible, ignore my rejection for it. TheDoctor 16:23, 7 March 2012 (PST)

Well, yes, it would be easiest to ignore all disambiguation pages. The false positives would be those few disambiguation pages that actually need to be translated. Badge only needs to be translated if someone sees that it needs to be translated due to a redlink or because that person has created some redirect in their own language. Nothing actually links to the "Badge" article so it exists for search purposes. I believe search abbreviations should be handled on a by-language basis. That means that if Russian editors want to have a search-based disambiguation page for articles, they should make that disambiguation page make sense in Russian specifically. It should not try to match the English one, which is based on the English word "badge". – fashnek _(talk·c) 08:42, 8 March 2012 (PST)

 Support. But the bot should definitely omit them, or the new Russian translators will translate them again and again :). — Stormbird ^talk 08:56, 8 March 2012 (PST)

Or we add on the header of missing translation pages: "ONLY TRANSLATE DISAMBIGUATION PAGES IF THEY HAVE THE SAME NAME IN THE OTHER LANGUAGE ; and/or open articles in the russian written way, because f.e. PP/ru doesnt help a russian much if he searches in the russian language" TheDoctor 02:56, 9 March 2012 (PST)

Articles that make no sense (BB/ru,BB/de and others) need to remove--FreeXMan Talk | Cont 11:51, 10 March 2012 (PST)

We discussed it today with some russian translators. The best way, to my mind, is to make bot ignore pages from Category:Disambiguation and all localized categories like Category:Disambiguation/ru. Then all translated disambigs should be analyzed and either removed or adapted to the article language. There are TWO points that should be taken into consideration. 1) Not all english disambigs make sense in other languages (e.g., Point have those 2 meanings in english, but in russian they are completely different). 2) There are disambigs in other languages that do not have english equivalents (e.g., the russian word Ключ has 2 meanings: Wrench and Key, and we need a disambig/ru page). So, once again, bot should not process disambig pages as «translation needed» and all translated disambig pages should be revised and either removed or fixed to correspond the article language. — Stormbird ^talk 12:06, 10 March 2012 (PST)

The preceding discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Please continue this discussion here. -- Pilk ^(talk) 09:42, 10 April 2012 (PDT)

Would PS3 modding count under hacking?

I was thinking about updating the Hacking page with info about hacking the PS3/XBOX 360 versions of the game, as they are practically hacks aswell.

Would this be a good idea?--Iamgoofball 22:09, 5 March 2012 (PST)

New template(s) proposal

Hi all, I've not made any edits for a month or so, mainly because it's been pretty quiet and I'm loathe to make work for work's sake. However, I saw this thread on SPUF, and decided to help the guy out and improve the wiki at the same time.

The almost-finished (item name links need improving) template is here, and it uses a base layout, which is seperate from the data to allow for easier editing.

The base template also uses a new User:Rebmcr/qualitycheck template (thanks to EpicEric), which could be used in place of Template:canbeunusual, if it's considered a good idea.

I need to write a Usage section for these 3 new templates tonight, but I just wanted to start getting opinions on this now. rebmcr 03:34, 14 February 2012 (PST)

OK, usage section written, appearance improved. I feel this is of a quality now that can go onto the main site. What does everyone think? rebmcr 13:57, 15 February 2012 (PST)

 I approve of this.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 13:12, 15 February 2012 (PST)

 I approve of this in a superior fashion compared to Epic Eric -- Firestorm 13:13, 15 February 2012 (PST)

Here's my two cents:

• Title bar is too big, should only cover one line (might also read better as "Possible weapon qualities")
• Background colour makes it hard to see the breaks between weapons - try switching it to #FFDDAD as in this one
• Don't really need the key twice - all other templates on the wiki just have it at the bottom

Nice job overall. I saw that post on the forums too and was thinking about throwing a template together. Glad I didn't bother because this one's much better than anything I could have come up with!

» Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 14:35, 15 February 2012 (PST)

Thanks for the feedback, been a bit (a lot) busy since last week, but I applied those suggestions now and fixed the bug with the title size. rebmcr 13:14, 20 February 2012 (PST)

• Looks like the feedback was spread out over each page in the project, so I've grouped it here (if that's Naughty, please let me know). I would really appreciate more opinions, guys! rebmcr 13:14, 20 February 2012 (PST)

 I support this, but, we must decide whether to include such qualities as vintage for items that were not intended to be vintage (like Earbuds), as well as the community and self-made qualities. I eat derpcakes 10:28, 10 March 2012 (PST)

Earbuds aren't weapons =/ I don't think it's worth adding Self-Made or Community, as practically any item can be found in those qualities. The current ones (Normal, Unique, Vintage, Genuine and Strange) are enough. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 13:44, 10 March 2012 (PST)

IMO, it should only list qualities that are normally obtainable. Eg.: Big Kill should be listed only as Unique, not Vintage, as it was obtainable through an unusual method.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 13:56, 10 March 2012 (PST)

Alrighty then, no bugged items (frowny face). I will proceed to comment that the strange-quality checkmarks are very hard to make out and hurt your eyes too. I'll work on the rest of the items' qualities, if you don't mind WHICH YOU DON'T. I eat derpcakes 14:16, 10 March 2012 (PST) Oops you took care of that =/ I eat derpcakes 14:17, 10 March 2012 (PST)

Gonna do a mmmphing awesome upgrade to the tick/cross cells now. Watch this space. rebmcr 05:39, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

Done, see below.rebmcr 14:45, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

 Heck yes. But I think you should just include the Multiple classes weapons on their respective classes. It's not such a big deal to have 3 shotguns in the template, but if users find it easier to locate, it should be better. GianAwesome 19:24, 10 March 2012 (PST)

 I have no strong feelings one way or the other What does everyone else think? What about Saxxy and Objector? rebmcr 05:39, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

 This looks like a pretty good idea I quite like the look of it apart from the black title box of the weapon. I think it'd be better to look more like this. Bojjob 08:57, 21 March 2012 (PDT)

New Stuff!

• Got a NEW VERSION for your approval/disapproval. I'll re-flow it into 8 columns when I get a consensus on whether to fold-in multi-class weapons (no point re-flowing it twice). rebmcr 14:45, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

 I still approve of this  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 15:08, 15 March 2012 (PDT)

• Also calling for votes on how to display the ticks/crosses! Look HERE and then let me know what style you'd prefer! rebmcr 14:45, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

Batallion's Backup has the Festive Flame Thrower icon. Otherwise, nice job!--Iamgoofball 15:53, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

You're looking at the next row. rebmcr 15:55, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

I like it, but the key looks weird; it is currently too big it fit in it's own section. 18:25, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

Yeah, the CSS is bugged in Chrome. Gonna fix it this afternoon. rebmcr 04:13, 12 March 2012 (PDT)

 1  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 15:08, 15 March 2012 (PDT)

 Suggestion - Why not have the checks and stuff to the right side of the weapon icon? Well, let me answer that myself: HHHH's "Unusual only" message. But I think it's still doable and worth considering. I eat derpcakes 09:49, 17 March 2012 (PDT)

Because then it becomes a lot easier to confuse the ticks for Item A, with Item B next to it. rebmcr 04:03, 19 March 2012 (PDT)

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Item set crafting - separate template

Note: Final proposal below ↓

Currently, for most weapon-based item sets (with one exception), we need two or three blueprints which have different ingredients but all create the same thing. Take, for example, these two for the Attendant:

Refined Metal		Degreaser		Attendant
x4	+		=

Refined Metal		Powerjack		Attendant
x4	+		=

I think that we should make a template called Item set blueprint, and in order to use it, you simply put in the name of the item set and it does the work. For example, {{Item set blueprint|Gas Jockey's Gear}} would give you a single blueprint for the Gas Jockey's Gear item set headwear crafting blueprint thing. How would it be a single blueprint, instead of two or three, as shown above? We would take the slot that would originally be for either the Degreaser or Powerjack, and instead label it "Gas Jockey's Gear weapon", and below it have a thumbnail for each weapon. However, in order for this to work, I would need help with translation switching.

Please note that in order to make this work the original {{Blueprint}} template must be updated (for multiple ingredients in one slot); also, share your thoughts. I eat derpcakes 10:59, 10 March 2012 (PST)

Kind of like how class token blueprints have multiple results? That could work.  Support. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 11:07, 10 March 2012 (PST)

 Support/comment Sounds like a good idea! How about instead of "Gas Jockey's Gear Weapons", you have the spot where there are multiple items that could be used, and have a / in-between the two items, and show both of the items icons?--Iamgoofball 21:32, 10 March 2012 (PST)

 Support Not much to say, just support. rebmcr 05:39, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

 Support and  Comment: There'd be no need to create a new template; we could only use {{Blueprint|autoresult=gas jockey's gear}}, for example, and it'd automatically appear correctly (as long as it's correctly dictionarized).  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 08:41, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

 Comment If once done every language would be up to date with the template update, which is good. But you could also manually do that. I just thought that the idea of an icon "jockey gear weapon" and under it the symbol of the weapons which you can use is not that great. I wonder if there are only 2 weapons which can be used it you let both appear like this: Weapon1/Weapon2. And they are kept seperated with a diagonally line. But i think the way it is done now works also very great and easy. TheDoctor 17:01, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

Like this?

Refined Metal		Powerjack or Degreaser		Attendant
x4	+		=

» Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 17:35, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

No I thought it should be like this:  ; just done it fast this is just an example. TheDoctor 17:46, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

Is this better?

Refined Metal		Powerjack or Degreaser		Attendant
x4	+	OR	=

» Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 18:01, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

Yes it is. Still i love this black lines until they reach the word "or". This seperation with the black lines makes it more clear for the casual user, and make it look not so plain. But if it can't be done otherwise i support this. Also cool for the fast answer. TheDoctor 18:04, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

 Support/comment I really like how this looks. It would save a bit of space on the pages, as well. ~Sven 20:22, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

 Me gusta, but still, how would we deal with three-weapon sets? This is a "three pipe problem," as they say (apparently). I eat derpcakes 03:30, 12 March 2012 (PDT)

Example numero 3 coming up:

Refined Metal		Croc-o-Style weapon		Ol' Snaggletooth
x4	+	OR	=

» Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 05:13, 12 March 2012 (PDT)

And this doesnt show the item name + link which doesnt help people who dont know the symbols of every weapon, or maybe think the bushwacka is a kukri... TheDoctor 05:30, 12 March 2012 (PDT)

I did try having all 3 items named like in the first two examples, but it made the template very wide. Clicking on any of the images does link to the respective weapon's article, so that should help. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 05:57, 12 March 2012 (PDT)

 Support this version. Each weapon icon is clickable in case you don't know the name, and having lines is a) cluttered and fussy, and b) difficult to code. rebmcr 08:11, 12 March 2012 (PDT)

 Support this solution, but I think it would be better to have "any" instead of "or", in a case which contains 3 items. I eat derpcakes 13:57, 12 March 2012 (PDT)

User:Sven/Blueprint example Something like that? (The TF2B template doesn't currently support having the text aligned to the center, but I did my best) ~Sven 08:13, 17 March 2012 (PDT)

Final proposal

With the feedback and help from the community I've been able to make a more to-the-point proposal. Much credit to Cooper Kid for his clever template workings.

The proposal is I think quite simple:

Replace the original redundant crafting recipes with either of these when applicable

Refined Metal		Gas Jockey's Gear weapon		Attendant
x4	+	OR	=

Refined Metal		Croc-o-Style Kit weapon		Ol' Snaggletooth
x4	+	ANY	=

A few things to note:

• We will incorporate this into the blueprint template so that {{Blueprint|autoresult=Gas Jockey's Gear}} and {{Blueprint|autoresult=Croc-o-Style Kit}} would give the above results;
• We will modify the formatting of the item set modification for any language that needs it ("any" might need different and longer words or phrases in different languages, etc.)
  • I'll leave this up to individual translators.

If we decide to put this into effect I'll be happy to help with coding it (for English, of course). I eat derpcakes 09:33, 17 March 2012 (PDT) 09:43, 17 March 2012 (PDT)

•  Support the "set name wepon" version rebmcr 09:36, 17 March 2012 (PDT)

 Oppose Either use "or", "any" or no text. Different texts for each set would only cause confusion. Either way, the second one is better.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 09:37, 17 March 2012 (PDT)

In response to these I've slightly edited the proposal, please check it again. I eat derpcakes 09:43, 17 March 2012 (PDT)

 Support the latest templates as they are, even though "any" looks bad.  Oppose signing talk pages without a username. – fashnek _(talk·c) 09:51, 17 March 2012 (PDT)

Sorreh, my bad. New sig coming up. rZ 09:56, 17 March 2012 (PDT)

 Support These are good, however I  Disagree with what Eric said, I think using "or" for two and "any" for 3+ is a much better idea, I don't think it would be confusing. -Mr. Magoolachub 09:54, 17 March 2012 (PDT)

 Support, "or" for two and "any" for 3+ is good, though I still think that using "or" across the board is fine and makes the most sense. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 09:57, 17 March 2012 (PDT)

 Support This looks pretty neat! If this gets added, I'll go ahead and start revamping the pages to add the new ones. Also, I happened to modify the second template to show it being used for a different item-set. I added the example below this post.--Iamgoofball 22:39, 17 March 2012 (PDT)

Refined Metal		Airborne Armaments weapon		Jumper's Jeepcap
x4	+	ANY	=

 Support moov, but need to make sure:

• All recipes stay in {{dictionary/blueprints}} without needing any translation switching on that dictionary (use translations from items dictionary)
• Text can be localized ("or"/"any") easily, in common_strings or blueprints dictionary; all language variants should fit on the template too, so accommodate for variable-width words
• The multi-result variant stays consistent:

Class Token - Scout		Slot Token - Secondary		Scrap Metal		Possible Results
	+		+		=

The above should have "one of" in the same style as the other cells can have "any"

— Wind 08:54, 21 March 2012 (PDT)

Maybe it's best to keep things simple then, like this:

Refined Metal		Gas Jockey's Gear weapon		Attendant
x4	+		=

Refined Metal		Croc-o-Style weapon		Ol' Snaggletooth
x4	+		=

That at least keeps them consistent with the current template format. You know how much I love consistency. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 17:06, 21 March 2012 (PDT)

 Comment I think that we don't need these "Or" or "Any". Just make a list of items that would be enough. --askarmuk, C? 22:17, 21 March 2012 (PDT)

Discussion closed, consensus is that we go through with the proposal. I will implement a version similar to Cooper Kid's, as shown just above. rZ 07:17, 22 March 2012 (PDT)

The preceding discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Lang icon Additional strings

Currently, Template:Lang icon only supports translated string for the word English. Sometimes it has to be used for other languages, but when you do that it shows the string of the language IN that language, for example, "Lang icon|ru" generates Русский. I think we should add the strings for other languages. GianAwesome 11:52, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

I support this idea, but I wonder how often it is really needed. TheDoctor 12:00, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

Yes, it is already designed to support that but no one has added any other languages except English (so {{Lang icon|en}} works in the page's language). If you look at the contents of the template you should be able to figure out how to add translations for other language names, not just "English". – fashnek _(talk·c) 09:55, 17 March 2012 (PDT)

"Random Page" button will never give any english pages

For the last 20 or so times I hit the random page button, none of the pages I got were in english.

I just thought I should say that, as that gets extremely annoying. Especially if it happens every single time, like it is now.--Iamgoofball 21:32, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

It's a software limitation. This happens because there are more translated articles than there are original, English ones. We can't do much about it. I eat derpcakes 15:17, 13 March 2012 (PDT)

It may be a software limitation, but it pretty much makes the random page button useless. Calq 15:37, 15 March 2012 (PDT)

Solution: Don't use it. I eat derpcakes 15:39, 15 March 2012 (PDT)

This was discussed before; a script to fix this has been created, but since we don't have server access and rely on Valve implement it (and they aren't answering us), there's nothing we can do about it.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 15:47, 15 March 2012 (PDT)

Bundles Template (lang. switched)

I just saw that the german page of the Bundle is outdated and the Prices and Availability changes, and to keep it in all languages correct, i would find it great if there would be a template for it. Also for new Bundles it would be great to have at least all Bundles listed, instead of not seeing all content. Soooo someone here to support my idea??? TheDoctor 05:41, 12 March 2012 (PDT)

Disambiguation pages: global suggestion

Hi all!

(English is not my native language, so have mercy please :). On the other hand, it means that I see the aspects of this problem that are language-dependent.)

So here are some points on the problem and a possible way to solve it.

1. Main point: Disambiguation is always language-dependent.
   • Consequently, there can be no need in translating disambiguation description to other languages, they can just have no sense there.
     • Example: Point. In English this word could refer to a specific region on the ground, to the player score or to the aiming as a part of hat name. In Russian all three meanings are expressed by three different words, and the disambiguation article is not needed. Don't know about other languages, but guess it is a normal situation everywhere.
     • Example 2: All those abbreviations that brought this discussion to life.
   • Consequently 2 (less obvious), there can be disambiguations in other languages that have no sense in English.
     • Example: a Russian word Ключ (pronounced [klyuch]). This word can refer to the key as well as to the wrench in Russian, so we would like to have a disambiguation article on this word. But there is no corresponding article in English segment, as in English key and wrench have nothing in common.
   • Suggested decision: illustrated now by an example with Ключ.
     • First, I created an article Ru_Klyuch/ru. It has a name that is more or less readable for english-speakers and is located in /ru segment (so all localized templates are working correctly). The prefix Ru_ indicates that it is a special article and prevents possible conflicts in case some transliterations will be exactly like existing English words. I also suggest to introduce a new category for those pages, for example, [Category:Language-specific disambiguation] to help bots.
     • Second, I created an article Ключ, as we are doing now to define a cyrillic alias. This page is a standard language redirect to Ru_Klyuch/ru.
     • We are still within wiki standards, except that we don't have a page [[Ru_Klyuch]]. But this — and it is a key point in my suggestion — is a normal situation, because — see Main point. It is normal that a disambiguation is described in only one (or maybe several) languages and is missing in others. Of course, users in other languages will create their own pages, like Fr_Shershe_La_Fam/fr (one of the few phrases I know in French, lol :).
2. Point #2: We need some bot tuning, NOW. I suggest that the bot creating 'Missing translation' pages should ignore pages from Category:Disambiguation and all language categories like Category:Disambiguation/ru. Look at the page Missing translations/ru — we really need to get rid of this spam, it makes the page completely useless now.
3. Point #3: As I have said above, a new category Language-specific disambiguation should be introduced (or choose a better name if needed). Bot should be aware of this category too, and should not process missing pages from it.
4. After all this is done, we in our language segments should review all already localized disambiguations and kill those that don't have sense (I have started to mark such ones in Russian with {{cleanup}} now). At the same time, we should also think about our own disambiguation articles — the main goal of all this mess :)

Thanks to all who didn't quit reading :). Please think of this suggestion and if you agree, support it. It will not require much work from the wiki admins (just points #2 and #3, and a formal "Let's do it" permission), but will bring new opportunities to the non-english wiki users. — Stormbird ^talk 07:18, 17 March 2012 (PDT)

I agree with this but not the proposed naming scheme (Xx_RedirectName/xx). It would create articles in the main namespace, and quite a bunch of them. I would rather have a dedicated article namespace for this, even if "unofficial" (as in, not in MW's config), which would make it look like Disambiguation:RedirectName/xx. On top of that, it would make it easy to make the bot ignore these pages, because it would be able to tell that it is a disambiguation from the name, something that is not possible currently or with the proposed naming scheme, and is crucial to being able to generate "missing translations" lists easily without having to fetch extra information — Wind 16:29, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

 Agree, I like the idea of the new naming. 1) Didn't quite get it, you mean that RedirectName should be an English transliteration (like Klyuch) or localized (like Ключ)? And 2) what should be done before we can start making localized disambigs? — Stormbird ^talk 13:49, 19 March 2012 (PDT)

The RedirectName would be an english translation of the name of the redirect, so Disambiguation:Key/ru in this example. As for #2, need to assemble a list of disambigs to migrate before doing it all in one shot so that there is no confusion or in-between mistakes. Having a proper namespace definition in the MediaWiki config would be nice, but sadly that seems unlikely to happen at the moment because Valve won't moov :( — Wind 14:17, 3 April 2012 (PDT)

And why not Disambiguation:Wrench/ru? The main problem is that, as I have said, [klyuch] can refer to the key as well as to the wrench in Russian. And the disambiguation word to explain is Klyuch — there is no english equivalent to it, that's why I suggest to use transliteration. As for 2), I think that all current Category:Disambiguation/ru can be processed. — Stormbird ^T│C 12:30, 6 April 2012 (PDT)

Then how about naming it Disambiguation:RedirectName/xx where RedirectName is the name of the redirect page that goes to Disambiguation:RedirectName/xx (I think that was the original idea lol) — Wind 23:59, 7 April 2012 (PDT)

You got it :). Redirect page Ключ should go to Disambiguation:Klyuch/ru, making it clear both for russian and english users (the latter just need to know that the page concerns russian disambiguation). As for current english disambiguations, they will look like Disambiguation:Point, which is also easy to understand and support. — Stormbird ^T│C 02:35, 8 April 2012 (PDT)

Alright from me, but:

• Need more staff support for this (is big move and so far I'm the only one saying anything here)
• Need to make a list of such disambigs and where they should be moved to, in all languages (this will take some time)

— Wind 11:40, 9 April 2012 (PDT)

 Senõr Support -RJ 11:43, 9 April 2012 (PDT)

I can talk about russian segment only. As for russian disambiguations, this category now counts 276 pages, but the large part of them have no sense and can be removed permanently. The other part, however, should be preserved (maybe with small corrections) and be 'equipped' with transliteration and cyrillic redirect. This process will take some time and some efforts. I suggest to start with moving ALL those pages automatically to the new namespace, leaving their current names (Baseball cap/ru → Disambiguation:Baseball cap/ru) and adding some marking infobox like {{retrans}} or {{cleanup|Check if disambiguation exists in Russian}}. Having all this, local editors can process those pages: rename + add cyrillic redirect + remove marking infobox — or, if needed, just empty the article and add {{delete}}. No additional help from administration will be required at this step. — Stormbird ^T│C 12:20, 9 April 2012 (PDT)

Even better idea: the new infobox with instructions explaining the new disambig structure. It should briefly explain what to do with the article, so that any editor can understand the point. Maybe it should also add some special category mark, like [Disambiguations that require review/xx] — it will help monitoring progress. I can prepare the infobox draft tomorrow. — Stormbird ^T│C 12:27, 9 April 2012 (PDT)

Another option is not to move current disambigs at all. As I have said, most of them were created as translations of english disambigs, paying little attention to their real need in russian. Maybe it will be easier to look at all russian item names, game concepts etc. and create pure russian disambigs from scratch. — Stormbird ^T│C 12:20, 9 April 2012 (PDT)

 I agree, it never made sense to me the way it's set up now. Disambigs should only really be used to disambiguate search terms. -- Pilk ^(talk) 09:38, 10 April 2012 (PDT)

Idea: A real 3D model viewer for weapons and hats

This is just an idea. Nothing that I have the power to even attempt to understand.

A discussion in IRC led me to think about having a JavaScript model viewer - like HLMV in your browser. Theoretically the user would be able to move the model in true 360 degrees, jigglebones and paints and all. We could have a version based on WebGL, and another based on 2D canvas. (Have no idea what I just said? WebGL is a newer web technology that takes advantage of the graphics card for 3D images. 2D canvas is slightly older and not as optimized for 3D images, but is supported more than WebGL.) If WebGL was not supported the other version of the model viewer would load instead.

Here's the problem: Somebody needs to code it.

Now, that's not to say from scratch; Source rendering in JavaScript has been done. However, the code must drastically change for our purposes. I'd like to see from the community whether you think it might be worth it to contact the guy who created a Team Fortress map with JavaScript, and to otherwise pursue the idea of this model viewer.

Please discuss. I have no idea what you will say, and I won't until you say it! rZ 09:00, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

The issue with that is someone needs to code all the shaders too, otherwise the models won't actually look like they do ingame. I'm not opposed to that, but it's a lot of work for whoever takes that on. It would make the workflow of generating the 3d models a heck of a lot easier. I think a webGL viewer is too heavy for the wiki though, I've also had a lot of issues with them. —Moussekateer·talk 09:42, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

I'd just like to point out that this has been done (albeit with many bugs and the like). rZ 11:23, 30 March 2012 (PDT)

Image Consistency: Part Deux

Further to the discussion I started a few weeks ago, most of the image names for all Hats and Miscellaneous Items are now named consistently - much kudos to FreeXMan for moving all the files I marked as incorrect. There are just a few more files to be done - these are ones which are actually missing and need to be made from scratch, so if anyone who uploads images for the Wiki could have a go at some it would be appreciated. There are 4 to do:

• Lo-Fi Longwave (File:Lo-Fi Longwave.png)
• Gold Dueling Badge (File:Gold Dueling Badge.png)  Done
• Tournament Medal - GWJ Tournament (File:Tournament Medal - GWJ Tournament.png)  Done
• Merc Medal (File:Merc Medal.png)  Done

Once the last of these have been uploaded, the {{Item infobox}} can be modified as needed to hard-code the images into it. That should save someone the effort of going through every page in every language and changing all the filenames before all 216 of the old redirects are deleted. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 09:34, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

Again this seems like a lot of work for very very little benefit, template and usability wise. Also there is nothing inherently wrong with redirects, that's what they're there for. —Moussekateer·talk 09:48, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

The paint gallery and item icon templates have images coded directly into them, which makes them easier to use and update. I'm just trying to get a similar thing working here. Once it's done, it's done, but the work will only get harder the longer it's left. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 09:54, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

The item icon and paint gallery templates are a completely different situation. They need to have consistent naming because the former template is used extensively across the wiki and the latter is 30 or more images used on a single page. In those cases consistent naming makes absolute sense. Single images used on single pages did not need that ridiculous amount of unnecessary work. The image name is highly unlikely to change once set on the page and as far as I can tell the only benefit all that work gave was for the sake of a random image picking template. Consistency is nice but not at the sake of common sense. —Moussekateer·talk 13:39, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

That does make absolute sense. But what about the Backpack images? There's only one of them in each userbox, and it essentially serves the same purpose. Anyway, it's done now - all we need is a couple of new images to finish off. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 15:38, 19 March 2012 (PDT)

Single paint colours with team variance

Some hats/miscs look different on RED and BLU, even with non-team paints applied. On hats like Whoopee Cap and Bombing Run, it's absolutely fine, as you can still see the paint colour. However, on Defiant Spartan (for example), the way it's set up for painting leads to completely different colours with the same non-team paint, on different teams. I propose this template to either replace the existing one in the article, or be linked on a subpage: User:Rebmcr/Template:Painted_variants/team. Please note that I'm only proposing this for the really different ones, NOT for Whoopee, Bombing, etc. rebmcr 15:20, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

 Support for all hats that change with teams. rZ 15:31, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

No, there's no point if just a decal changes. This is only for if the actual paint colour changes. rebmcr 15:33, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

All hats that change with teams even when painted. rZ 15:36, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

Language Switched Template Bundles List

I saw that in other languages(ko,ja etc...) the price list and other things didnt worked out nice. So i made a template for it which is really simple but works excellent. I could replace the old bulky texts on the Bundles site, and shift it into a new place to support general updated sites on all languages, with still the possibility to add notes or other things. Here my template: User:TheDoctor/Template:bundletest . I will apply this template to every translated page if i get the okay from some moderators about it. Please tell me what you think about it, it's my first language switched template. TheDoctor 16:54, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

 Support It doesn't really affect me personally, because language switching, but I like it. This should definitively be initialized. 17:38, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

Pilk said it's okay, so i added it. Discussion is closed i guess. TheDoctor 03:25, 19 March 2012 (PDT)

New wiki homepage

As you may have seen my edit spamming, Pilk and I have been making a New Wiki Mainpage based off a design made by Benjamoose. features: - can squish down down while looking good still down to 550px wide (which is the minimum width it can shrink to) - Uses divs not a table or 2, this provides dynamics to the page, making the formatting work better for your browser - according to some users (i cannot test this myself ='( ) it is compatible with mobile browsers! - the color scheme looks cleaner therefore a better and easier to navigate page (everyone likes easier navigation right?) - uses a custom font Blackoak for the headers see this image for reference

so, feedback would be much apppreciated =) - Lexar - talk 05:59, 23 March 2012 (PDT)

Looks great, but I would suggest making the class bar of another colour but grey. It looks a little bland like that. -- OluapPlayer _(t) 06:02, 23 March 2012 (PDT)

I'm actually in favour of a more understated, minimalist colour scheme. I also heartily support divs over tables. rebmcr 06:18, 23 March 2012 (PDT)

Additional- A different colour scheme would also help to differentiate ourselves from the other wiki.rebmcr 06:20, 23 March 2012 (PDT)

 Very Strong Oppose - Minimalistic color scheme for a wiki about such a colorful game is stupid. The proposal is very dim, not welcoming at all (a main page should be welcoming). The current main page is much easier readable. SiPlus 06:44, 23 March 2012 (PDT)

 Support using divs,  Oppose the new look of the page. It's nice, and obviously had a lot of work put into it, but it makes sense to keep the current colour scheme, as every table on the wiki uses that nice orange from the logo. The main page should carry the same colours, in my opinion. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 09:59, 23 March 2012 (PDT)

 Support layout, gradients and sleek look,  Oppose current color scheme. Perhaps some non-grayscale colors and an interesting image background would spice things up. rZ 10:35, 23 March 2012 (PDT)

This May Sound Crazy But, I propose Strange Crafting.

Honestly, As a Strange Lover, I think a player should be able to craft 2 Stranges of the same class into a strange scrap, And Craft Strange Scrap into Strange Rec, And use that Strange Reclaimed metal in the crafting recipe of the weapons you want, as long as there is a STrnage Variant of that weapon. For example, You should be able to use that strange Rec in the PowerJack Recipe with an axtinguisher, and get Strange PowerJack, But you would NOT be able to use it in a Righteous bison recipe because there is no strange variant. What Would make this an even easier concept is if there was either A.) A Whole New Tab For Strange Crafting, (right next to the Tab for Crafting Halloween Items) or B.) When you click on an item in the craft page, there should be a recipe UNDER the Normal recipe which calls for a strange variant of the metal required to make the weapon originally. An Even Better Solution so as not to change crafting so much, the Alternative crafting recipe could call for a regular metal, but a Strange variant of the weapon used in crafting, So a Strange Loch-N-Load could be made from either the first Option for Strange crafting: Strange Reclaimed Metal, and a Unique Scottish resistance, or the alternative: A Normal Reclaimed Metal, and a Strange Scottish Resistance... Any thoughts? {{subst:void|This template should always be substituted. Please change {{Unsigned}} to {{subst:Unsigned}}}}— The preceding unsigned comment was added by Barkatsuki (talk) • (contribs) 2024-12-28, 10:20 UTC

• Please sign your posts, and remember, we just document TF2, we don't decide how it works.rebmcr 13:19, 24 March 2012 (PDT)

 Interesting. I must say, this is quite a good idea. However, if it's just for the weapon and not for the strange attribute, insted of paying, say, 1 scrap for a Frontier, you'll pay 2 rec or hell, even a ref. I guess people can do this calculation in mind though, so it's not that big of a deal. I can imagine it right now. Now tell this to valve. Rocket Sticky Jumper Talk 06:08, 29 March 2012 (PDT)

The wiki is not an appropriate place for discussion on gameplay/item/crafting ideas. SPUF is a much better place for that. -- Pilk ^(talk) 09:33, 10 April 2012 (PDT)

A note on the different weapon list templates

On Template:Weapon list the Sapper is listed as PDA, yet on Template:Allweapons Nav it's listed as a secondary weapon. The Spy's revolvers are also listed as secondary weapons on Template:Weapon list, but as primary weapons on Template:Allweapons Nav. There's also no PDA2 slot on Template:Weapon list. So on Template:Weapon list the Sapper, Disguise Kit and the Spy's watches all end up being listed under PDA. Adreadline 08:48, 27 March 2012 (PDT)

Should we list current (and possibly past) owners of the new hats?

Title says all. A discussion in IRC led me to start this discussion since there wasn't a clear consensus as to what we would do.

Please, please oh please put in your two cents. rZ 15:31, 28 March 2012 (PDT)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvdf5n-zI14 SS2R 15:32, 28 March 2012 (PDT)

No.– fashnek _(talk·c) 15:33, 28 March 2012 (PDT)

 Neutral No to recording past ones (who cares?), maybe to mark down current owner if it is possible to script this or else it will get forgotten. It is AFAIK not possible to script this right now, so no. — Wind 15:34, 28 March 2012 (PDT)

 Nope That sounds like after this first week it would be awful to keep track of and update. Also, I don't see it to be very notable. 15:35, 28 March 2012 (PDT)

 I disagree. I don't know who would like to know that, exepct from trolls or scammers, but if there weren't any of these scammers, I'll just say it's pointless, with all respect. Rocket Sticky Jumper Talk 06:01, 29 March 2012 (PDT)

 Heckno.ogg I also think this is pointless, and would only be useful to trolls ("hurr durr trade me this hat omg"). real_alien (T/C) 06:07, 29 March 2012 (PDT)

 Mebbe.mpg Ctrl+C Ctrl+V what Wind said. Though it's probably impossible to script something like that, seeing as those items are weird and all.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 18:56, 29 March 2012 (PDT)

 Neutral Interesting idea and probably would be good to have, but impossible to maintain. Someone would have to hunt for the current owner every day, and that would be impossible. Balladofwindfishes 05:09, 30 March 2012 (PDT)

AAAnd... Can't find anything to do.

Hello, my name is Rocket Sticky Jumper (RSJ) and I just signed to the wiki about a week ago. I've been playing TF2 for about 1010 hours now(!) and I thought I can help here a lot through my knowledge. Though, searching through the two forts of knowledge, I haven't found anything to edit or create. Ideas to do here, maybe?

Thanks, Rocket Sticky Jumper Talk 05:56, 29 March 2012 (PDT)

There's a task list for this - there aren't many requests there at the moment but it does list a few ongoing tasks which need to be kept in check, so take a look and see what you can do. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 06:17, 29 March 2012 (PDT)

Thanks, but I know about the task list, not much things I specify in (Weapons-Patches-Updates) need cleaning up or expanding. Rocket Sticky Jumper Talk

If anyone else is reading this, the Community Strategy pages need tons of cleanup in both the gameplay and english departments. I've revamped several strategy articles in the past, which is why Basic Strategy looks presentable, but the Community Strategy pages are impossible due to their length and large amounts of things I'd attempt to change. -- InShane 08:04, 3 April 2012 (PDT)

There are a lot of community website pages that need to be created or fleshed out. --Fiskie ^{Talk :: Contribs} 08:49, 3 April 2012 (PDT)

Templatizing common phrases/sentences for items

This is an issue brought up by Stormbird. The suggestion is to replace common phrases with translated templates that may be transcluded onto item pages. An example is the current Halloween Restricted Template which is placed on any Halloween restricted item. Stormbird had created templates such as:

• {{Template:Weapon change destroys buildings}} --> Switching from this weapon to a different melee weapon will destroy all existing buildings.
• {{Temporary item day}} --> Possession of the hat is not permanent and is limited to a single day.

And these templates would be translated and placed onto any applicable page. There are several pros and cons associated with this:

 + Reduces minor errors on page creation

 + Can correct a mistake across many articles

 + Can change the text across many articles

 - Can be confusing for editors when pages start to have more and more templates

 - Possible page slowdown (Not sure how much of an issue this is)

What are your thoughts in having templates such as these? -- Firestorm 10:26, 30 March 2012 (PDT)

 Neutral I like the Halloween restricted template because it's tiresome to change the same thing 29 times, but there aren't many articles for the two above (6 and 3), and those lines are relatively short. Until there are more articles with the same phrase or longer phrases, I think we can trust the users to make changes. Tabs 18:13, 1 April 2012 (PDT)

Templete Idea: WikiBreak

"WikiBreak" is a term used to describe a break from Wikipedia, and since this is a Wiki project, I thought it'll be great to add this temeplete on here:

{{Wiki Break|7|Exam Prepration}}

Will produce:

This user is taking a Wiki break for 7 day(s). Reason: Exam Prepration.

So, questions about this idea:

1. Do you think this will work (Aka: will you actually use this?)
2. Wikipedia has different Wikibreak templetes for different events, i.e. Medical Surgery/illness, Exams, School etc. Should I make some too? Rocket Sticky Jumper Talk 11:40, 31 March 2012 (PDT)

Well, I would have used this last week... rebmcr 04:45, 1 April 2012 (PDT)

I did make this as a userbox before, somewhat.

This user is on vacation right now. Reason: Hurr Durr.

--Fiskie ^{Talk :: Contribs} 08:51, 3 April 2012 (PDT)

A gift after April's Fools

I thought it would be nice to leave a gift for April's fools so lets let the community download the skin of the weapons we made up. so here something I made to give them the link thorough it. Link for download the lamey site I made : http://www.mediafire.com/?6oi096fvs95sbqj Link for the skin http://dl.dropbox.com/u/43356210/disc.rar I have brought the idea to the IRC and people liked it. Atlas 17:35, 1 April 2012 (PDT)

 Support The idea of letting people download it, but I think it would be better to put the download link on the existing store page which, will be modified at midnight to explain what happened — Wind 17:50, 1 April 2012 (PDT)

Just letting you know , I have talked with Quin about this and he is 100% okay with us publishing his skin. Atlas 17:56, 1 April 2012 (PDT)

 Thanks! I actually thought the update, the page and the steam page was completely real, and although I knew it was April Fools, I really haven't thought it was a joke. Good job with that, hope to participte in April Fools 2013! Rocket Sticky Jumper Talk 00:37, 2 April 2012 (PDT)

How about: User of the Month!

We could reward users for good work by featuring them in a section on the main page. Judges could look for edits, spirit, quality, like a featured article for users! --Enthers. (I find this work intriguing. How about yourself, sir?) 07:51, 3 April 2012 (PDT)

3D Model Project: Hats

Whatever happened to the 3D model project for hats and miscs? A quick glance at the images depository reveals that some have been made pending changes.

The last I've heard of it was that Moussekateer had a "hat painting studio of sorts" in the works and under wraps as of October 2011. -Upgrade 00:45, 5 April 2012 (PDT)

Category icons

Hello everybody,

I just wanted to see what the community thought of these category icons:

I'm certainly not done with them yet - I will implement many, many more over time, as well as additional styling to make them as compatible across browsers as I can. If we decide that most of us like them, we can enable them for everybody (right now I'm the only one who sees them). r4wrzSwagmaster 13:45, 6 April 2012 (PDT)

Probably needs "margin-right:2px;" on each icon. rebmcr 13:48, 6 April 2012 (PDT)

 Nope I only see one in that giant screenshot but almost any representative icon will be unreadable at that size. – fashnek _(talk·c) 14:04, 6 April 2012 (PDT)

Just remember guys, (almost) everything is subject to change, including size. r4wrzSwagmaster 14:06, 6 April 2012 (PDT)

What are you asking then if everything will change? The icon already isn't readable, and I don't think any proper icon will be readable at that size. I also don't see how the size would change without either making the whole category list look like ass or making category text larger (which no one wants). Are you asking about category icons in general? I say they are a big waste. – fashnek _(talk·c) 14:09, 6 April 2012 (PDT)

 Support I like the idea, the implementation needs work though. margin-right is pretty much necessary, and some of the icons (the token ones) aren't recognisable at such small sizes. Need other icons, or icons made to look good at that size to begin with — Wind 14:12, 6 April 2012 (PDT)

I will be replacing the token icons with images of the weapons that are on them. r4wrzSwagmaster 14:14, 6 April 2012 (PDT)

 Whatever you like. I think this is cool, but the icons are too small and I don't know how to place images to some of these catagories (Untradeable items for example), thus making it un-consistant. I don't really love it, nor I hate it. Whatever you guys pick is fine with me. Rocket Sticky Jumper Talk 12:34, 7 April 2012 (PDT)

 No, sorry. Icons are too small, they don't add to readability. IMHO. — Stormbird ^T│C 02:40, 8 April 2012 (PDT)

It would maybe help if people could see them as they'd appear on an article, at their usual size. Here's the original:

And here's a version with icons:

I think there's potential, but we'd need to use icons which are a bit easier to distinguish. The Spy icon works well, but I couldn't think of anything else to use for the weapons. I suppose kill icons might be OK, but they'd need to be cropped a little. Of course, the other side of the argument is that they're just categories, and we don't really need to clutter up this space with images. What does everyone else think? » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 06:09, 8 April 2012 (PDT)

I agree that the class icons have potential to serve as a bit of illustration. However it would be difficult to find a representative icon for the weapon categories. Whatever the case, Wikipedia itself does not use images in its categories. Upgrade 14:24, 8 April 2012 (PDT)

 No This seems unnecessary. It would probably be a pain to implement as well. 15:17, 8 April 2012 (PDT)

It really wouldn't be a pain to implement... r4wrzSwagmaster 15:20, 8 April 2012 (PDT)

Well there are about 5000 categories... » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 16:33, 8 April 2012 (PDT)

I thought it would be rather obvious that I'm not making category icons for every one of them. I'll be focusing on the ones most used on item pages (which make up a lot of the wiki). r4wrzSwagmaster 16:35, 8 April 2012 (PDT)

 No I think it's entirely unnecessary. Before making a change like this you must consider what value this adds, besides potentially looking nice -- which is an arguably point in itself. -- Pilk ^(talk) 09:30, 10 April 2012 (PDT)

 Oppose They don't add anything useful to articles and only serve to break up the text in an uneven manner, not to mention the extra page load time this would add for very little gain. This isn't intuitive, this isn't helpful, this certainly isn't readable compared to the existing text, and it's too ambiguous (e.g Luger and Shotgun meaning different things when one would expect them both to represent the weapons category). i-ghost 09:36, 10 April 2012 (PDT)