Team Fortress Wiki:Discussion

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Broken external links on Tf Wiki pages

Everyone who desire to work with this list and fix broken links can do so--FreeXMan Talk | Cont 11:02, 28 May 2012 (PDT)

What do you mean by fixing? --Enthers. (I find this work intriguing. How about yourself, sir?) 16:24, 7 June 2012 (PDT)

Finding new versions of old pages, or removing the link if no current version exists. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 20:26, 7 June 2012 (PDT)

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

{{Backpack item}} improvements (again)

Since only 4 people chimed in last time.

Old template:

"Le Swag"
Face-Melting Knife - Kills: 1337
Upon a successful backstab you rapidly disguise as your victim
Silent Killer: No attack noise from backstabs
Wearer cannot disguise

New template:

"Le Swag"

Face-Melting Knife - Kills: 1337
Upon a successful backstab you rapidly disguise as your victim
Silent Killer: No attack noise from backstabs
Wearer cannot disguise

New fonts, consistent colors and font size, blah blah blah. Putin your 2 cents, please. rZ 13:20, 28 May 2012 (PDT)

 Support I like the fact that it is the font and font colour from the game itself. Taser9001 01:16, 29 May 2012 (PDT)

 Snap! 02:28, 29 May 2012 (PDT)

 Against because it is: Better readable <or> More Original ; I think it is better to show it more cleary, instead of a 100% copy of every game aspect. Also in each resolution the size differs, f.e. in low resolutions the wiki also is not good readable... (this has nothing to do with the topic, but i wanted to mention it). TheDoctor 13:38, 31 May 2012 (PDT)

 Against It's not how the graphic looks in-game, so why change it? Also, this text is harder to read than the original. --Enthers. (I find this work intriguing. How about yourself, sir?) 18:59, 6 June 2012 (PDT)

Actually it is a replica of the in-game appearance. Also it remains readable, which is all that matters. Not how much more- or less-readable it is compared to the old version. If that were the case we would be using White on Black and the Helvetica font to be absolutely maximum readable - however this is obviously not necessary as long as it remains above the baseline of legibility. 18:17, 7 June 2012 (PDT)

 Support I like it. —Moussekateer·talk 21:40, 8 June 2012 (PDT)

 Neutral Not as easy on the eye as I would expect, but I guess it'd be okay. Hm.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 13:28, 11 June 2012 (PDT)

 Support It's nice. It synergises with the Wiki really well, as well as strengthening the link between the game and the Wiki itself. 12:18, 14 June 2012 (PDT)

 Neutral The TF2 font is fairly readable, however I'm not sure we should be copying every aspect from the game verbatim when the current font works just fine. As our goal is to communicate information clearly, why should we make it more difficult even if it is only slightly? We should probably get more user input from different TF2 communities as this is a site-wide change, before taking any action (official forums, Facepunch, reddit etc.), to see whether this change would be accepted. Also, as the fonts are hosted by Wind, we'll need his approval as this might increase the load on his server due to this being site-wide. i-ghost 09:28, 15 June 2012 (PDT)

 Support | It would be an extremely good addition to the wiki, if this were implemented. -NameUser 22:28, 25 June 2012 (PDT)

 Support I don't see why not. It's still perfectly readable and looks better --Liquid Fire @H|H 12:36, 26 June 2012 (PDT)

 Support This template is meant to be a reproduction of the in-game thingy (that's why it looks lik the in-game one), so why make a compromise on its fonts when we can make them the same? It's still readable, and it doesn't make any difference to the existing load on my server because all fonts are loaded all the time anyway. — Wind 17:02, 26 June 2012 (PDT)

 Support Looks good. Gives everyone a good picture of TF2-style text. Collector1

 Support Yeah, new text is much better. I like it. And it's very readable. Bel 01:15, 29 June 2012 (PDT)

 Against I find this new template's text more difficult to read than current template's text. Good idea though. -Asplode 12:10, 30 June 2012 (PDT)

 Against I find it harder to read. Plus the original text is how it's like in-game Wariopunk 03:31, 9 July 2012 (PDT)

 Support Looks to be more in keeping with the spirit of TF2, and this wiki. It's larger, and consequently easier to read. Gilgamesh 07:16, 31 July 2012 (PDT)

 Neutral It follows the spirit of TF2, which I approve of. However, the font will be harder to read on smaller resolutions. JayLow 10:06, 1 August 2012 (PDT)

 Support Looks nice, consistent with the game itself, why not, really? Zabidenu 15:58, 6 August 2012 (PDT)

 Against Looks nice but it's harder to read. It sort of looks dirty on my resolution too. I'd suggest using the sans-serif front because it looks cleaner and more professional. ErroR 13:56, 8 August 2012 (PDT)

 Support The font helps strengthen the bond between the wiki and the game it's informing about. Damax3rd 16:22, 9 August 2012 (PDT)

 Against Font is hard to read Ownage Hamster 19:52, 10 August 2012 (PDT)

No real strong reason to oppose this. Implemented. —Moussekateer·talk 00:47, 14 August 2012 (PDT)

The preceding discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

How should the "class" taunts pages be improved?

So i just saw that the Soldier taunts page lists all taunts, but mostly a link is missing on how the taunts are performed. So i added myself one link to a demonstration video. (Look here) But i thought this way is not that perfect and we need a better way of doing it. Sooo we need a strategy. Suggestions pleaseee, because i have no idea about either a template adjustment to the videos of each taunts(sets) or if there should be seperated movies about it. TheDoctor 10:53, 1 June 2012 (PDT)

I could conceivably make a script that will composite the frames from hlmv into a video file suitable for upload. I'll make it my next project after the quality database is finished. 10:54, 1 June 2012 (PDT)

There's no need to have a video demonstration on the taunt pages; the images and text are sufficient for showing what happens during the taunt and the weapon demonstration project shows the taunts too. i-ghost 13:37, 11 June 2012 (PDT)

 Support I was thinking about maybe using a .gif or attached video like you said, mainly the attached video like the demonstration video for weapons due to .gif's either being choppy or not in good quality. -Domo1037

Ad media

whats with the ad media everywhere? a lot of things are highlighted with ad media. TubbyMonster 20:55, 4 June 2012 (PDT)

What? The official wiki doesn't use ads, while www.tf2wiki.com (the unofficial one) does. Where are these ads you speak of? — Xenak (Talk|Contribs) 20:56, 4 June 2012 (PDT)

...ok maybe its just my computer but things are highlighted in green and it links me to ad media shananigans. TubbyMonster 21:04, 4 June 2012 (PDT)

Hmm... That's weird. Is it your browser? I know of a couple that basically have built in ad machines. — Xenak (Talk|Contribs) 21:06, 4 June 2012 (PDT)

Most likely you have something injecting ads into the webpage, be it a malicious browser extension or some adware program on your computer or your ISP itself injecting ads into the webapges you see (happens). This wiki has no advertisements on links, or banner ads, or pop-ups, or anything. — Wind 21:08, 4 June 2012 (PDT)

Maybe run a scan on your computer to see what's going on? Have you ran any executables or been to any 'unusual' websites in the past few days? -NameUser 22:59, 25 June 2012 (PDT)

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Seperate scoreboard page

I was looking through the HUD page today, specifically for information on the Scoreboard and the points one gets for doing actions. To my surprise, there isn't a page that has both scoreboard information and the points one recieves. I was a bit surprised, really, so I set about making this new page. This unifies the necessary Scoreboard information, as well as detailing where things are on the scoreboard (with that new image) and makes things clear and concise (I hope)! With this page, there wouldn't be a need for the Points page (thus it can be deleted), and people could get two lots of information from a single page. Also, considering the information about the scoreboard has been taken from the HUD page, a simple sentence can be put in it's place alongside the generic Main article: Scoreboard thing.

I just wanted other people's opinion's before I considered posting this. Thanks in advance (also, I apologise if this discussion is in the wrong section)! 12:49, 6 June 2012 (PDT)

 Support zis rZ 13:29, 6 June 2012 (PDT)

 Support It'll be good to have a page explaining points and what exactly the elements of the scoreboard do. — Xenak (Talk|Contribs) 13:43, 6 June 2012 (PDT)

 Support It makes sense to link the scoreboard page with the points page, and the points page is so short it feels like something is missing. This page fits the bill nicely. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 13:45, 6 June 2012 (PDT)

 Comment Done, thanks everyone! 12:14, 14 June 2012 (PDT)

The preceding discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Class article galleries are a mess

I'd really like to clean up the class galleries. It's been on my list of things to do for awhile. Take the Engineer gallery for example. We have concept art, noteworthy class stills, and promo stuff. I don't think anything having to do with other games should be present on these galleries. All of those Worms images belong on the Worms: Reloaded article, all of the MNC and SMNC stuff belongs on those respective articles. I also think the "Class cards" should just be removed. They aren't cards, they're images of the classes. We have one of those at the top of the article. The class's default arsenals should either be removed to added to class infobox at the top of the article. Once the promos and "class cards" are gone, I think images should be sorted by age, oldest first. So, TF/TFC images first, then TF2 concept art, then trading cards, then any other TF2-age shots worth keeping. I believe these changes will make the galleries look much better, cleaner, as well as flesh out the promo articles a little. Opinions? --SilverHammer 13:19, 11 June 2012 (PDT)

They are actually cards. Oh wait, now I know what you mean. Yeah, those are unnecessary. 13:20, 11 June 2012 (PDT)

The other versions of the killicons

I have noticed throughout the wiki that pages which have killicons only have the versions that are seen when they apply to the player, and not the white-on-black ones when they don't. I believe we should use some CSS to make it so hovering over one of these killicons will show the white-on-black versions. This is of course easier said than done but I want to see whether everyone else thought it a good idea. rZ 14:51, 11 June 2012 (PDT)

It's Beige-on-Brown/Brown-on-Beige but  Support. 14:53, 11 June 2012 (PDT)

This doesn't add anything of value to the page which isn't already communicated by the image already in place. i-ghost 15:01, 11 June 2012 (PDT)

Seems entirely pointless if you ask me. The picture doesn't change. A lot of work, for very little change slippyfist Against

Paint Style Overlinking

When looking at the team colored painted variants for an item (such as Flip-Flops), the text RED and BLU are linked for every paint. This is a case of overlinking, and can be fixed, but would cause a lot of updates. The fix lies in {{Dictionary/items}}, wherein the team paints are all named (using RED and BLU links). By removing these links for all but the first paint (waterlogged lab coat IIRC) it would solve this problem. The catch lies in whether or not pages use this dictionary entry aside from via transclusion to {{Painted variants}}. Ideas? User:Darkid/Sig 18:35, 15 June 2012 (PDT)

Might I suggest that they don't need to be defined seperately or linked at all? Just replace (in the template) with a lookup for the base paint name and bolt on the team name, none of it linked... 06:15, 16 June 2012 (PDT)

Not linked at all sounds great. I don't see how you could configure it to not be defined separately, though. User:Darkid/Sig 07:34, 16 June 2012 (PDT)

It's been over a week since I said that, so I think that merits pushing this change. I'll wait a day or two if I hear anything against this in the next 2 hours... Darkid 12:23, 20 June 2012 (PDT)

 Disagree I don't know if I'd want to hunt around a table looking for the entry that holds the link. It's one thing to not link something more than once in a flowing paragraph, but in a table like this someone might be looking specifically for Cream Spirit, and not even notice that Waterlogged is the only one with a link Balladofwindfishes 12:26, 20 June 2012 (PDT)

(am now holding off for 1 day) I have no trouble locating the links (they're in the Dictionary wrapper), and would (As per above) remove all the links. RED and BLU are linked to on any painted item's page in the navbox. I understand the sentiment, though, of hunt+peck through a table for a link. Darkid 12:32, 20 June 2012 (PDT)

Darkid, please realize that just because nobody has objected doesn't mean that everybody supported, and that it's not a legitimate reason to go ahead and make a change that will affect large amounts of the wiki. rZ 12:30, 20 June 2012 (PDT)

Hence my wait. However, a week is sufficient time for someone to read the thread and comment. I can't be asked to petition around to see if the topic is passable (by say posting on every admin's talk page). Darkid 12:32, 20 June 2012 (PDT)

 Disagree I think it's a lot easier to have the linked names. They're not that much of a bother, in fact they're tiny, and removing all but one or two of the links will look slightly odd in my opinion. 15:50, 20 June 2012 (PDT)

A quote from wikipedia's Manual of Style: Generally, a link should appear only once in an article, but if helpful for readers, links may be repeated in infoboxes, tables, image captions, footnotes, and at the first occurrence after the lead. I feel that this link set, while not *aggravating* per se, is a gross example of overlinking. Besides, the pages Red and Blue don't have that much to do with these paint colors, except that the paints look different when on these teams. That would indicate that a link to Paint Can would be more useful. The fix would not, as has been suggested, remove only a subsection of these links, it would instead remove all of them. Again, there is no need (and no need to assume) that people are going to have trouble/want to see the pages RED and BLU after/from this page. Darkid 16:04, 20 June 2012 (PDT)

Ahem. So, I see a few concerns:

• First, this change is hard to push. False: The strings are in a dictionary wrapper, and easy to change.
• Second, removing some of the links will cause an issue. True: Thus, all links will be removed.
• Third, removing all of the links will cause an issue. Debatable: However, it seems unlikely that A. People will want to read a page about sub-companies and merchandise for a fictional team after looking at paints for an item and B. People will have trouble finding these links if they want to do so.
• Fourth, removing these links will cause a massive update. Partially true: This change will update 182 hats (in all languages), and will update no more than that, as these strings are only used on paintable hat pages. The strings will be changed simultaneously, so that each page need update only once.

Feedback? Darkid 20:54, 21 June 2012 (PDT)

 I agree on all counts It's also going to be slightly more optimal to not have a dictionary entry throwing out links. 03:48, 22 June 2012 (PDT)

 Support There really isn't a big necessity of having those pages linked everywhere, so I guess it's okay to remove those links. Afterall, the two companies are already in the index, on the Main Page. And the RED and BLU pages aren't really that important in the hat pages, such that if they are left out of those articles, it won't make much of a difference. Also, the pages will look a lot better.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 16:56, 22 June 2012 (PDT)

 Agree Though, my suggestion is to simply remove all of the links for RED and BLU. It's rather obvious to anyone that has played the game for a few minutes that they're going to be team-colored. One thing that would also help this is to put both images for the team-colored previews in one column for each of the respective paints. The redundant names are also a bit of an eyesore. -- Lagg 20:28, 22 June 2012 (PDT)

Liquidfire says (Via IRC): I  Agree. In my opinion, they should only be showed once User:LiquidFire 15:43, 23 June 2012 (PDT)

 Agree Indeed, I prefer to have all the links removed. It will look far better than the sheer over-linking or the odd one-or-two links. At any rate, there are almost always links on every Hat's page that already link to the respective team pages. 15:51, 23 June 2012 (PDT)

 Agree Remove all links. Red and Blu are not important things to link to. Balladofwindfishes 16:04, 23 June 2012 (PDT)

Failing insane thunderstorms, I'll push this change tomorrow. Brace yourselves :P Darkid 16:07, 23 June 2012 (PDT)

Translating MediaWiki UI Strings

Hello everybody (again) (Don't you ever get tired of mah discussorz?),

I've come to realize that using our {{lang}} template, we can translate the MediaWiki UI with great ease. If we can get all of our translators together, we can contribute to translate most if not all of the UI.

For example, at the top of this page there is a header which says "Project page". This string is stored at MediaWiki:Nstab-project, which only admins can edit. If all the translators can meet together to translate these core UI strings, we can have a more localized UI for the other languages, which makes everything better. (For example, the Spanish version of Project page would be Página de proyecto (if I translated that correctly)).

Obviously, this would require admin approval, which in turn requires community approval. Please feel free to discuss, and add any additional pros or cons as you see fit. rZ 18:01, 22 June 2012 (PDT)

Concern #1: Time. How bad is this on that?

Concern #2: Ease of translation. Should be peachy.

Concern #3: Necessity. Eh... if you found more of these, I'd be happy.

Darkid 18:31, 22 June 2012 (PDT)

Look around you. All of the tabs on the top of the page, the options to move, delete, and otherwise modify pages, the quick links at the top of the page (My talk, etc), the sidebar to the left, the options while editing a page... There are many, many UI strings that can and should be translated. rZ 03:06, 23 June 2012 (PDT)

I am a russian translator and I have set 'russian language UI' in my wiki settings. Being logged in, instead of 'Project page' I see russian translation ('О проекте'). So guess UI is already localized. — Stormbird ^T│C 03:39, 23 June 2012 (PDT)

Missing images in some browsers

For some reason, The Scout's leaderboard class icon doesn't show up in Firefox. Nor do some achievement icons (forget which), or the Banana Peel's backpack icon. Why is this?Open Source Forever 17:22, 25 June 2012 (PDT)

They work fine in my Firefox 17:23, 25 June 2012 (PDT)

What version are you using? I have 13.0.1.Open Source Forever 17:33, 25 June 2012 (PDT)

Those Archive links

So I just noticed that 2010 and 2011 run January-December (Top-Bottom), while 2012 runs December-January (Top-Bottom). This should be fixed, and I'd quickly suggest to flip 2010 and 2011, since that way it would read Newest-Oldest (Top-Bottom). Darkid 18:23, 25 June 2012 (PDT)

As seems to be the catch phrase around here, Be Bold! So I'm pushing through these changes. Darkid 17:19, 26 June 2012 (PDT)

New idea

Hey guys, so today I thought of adding something to the item page of the wiki, trading price. This game does focus on the community a lot and trading seems to be a big part of it. Just an idea and I'm wondering what you guys think of it. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Domo1037 (talk) • (contribs) 09:37, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

 No. Item prices are subjective and depend with each trade; the Wiki is focused on factual information. There are already several sites out there focused on item prices, but since it's not specific, objective information, we should leave it out of the WIki. Also, this has been suggested several times in the past and was rejected every single time, for the reasons specified above.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 05:42, 27 June 2012 (PDT)

 Oh, okay then I was just being the curious guy I am. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Domo1037 (talk) • (contribs) 09:47, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

 Yes. Although the item prices change I think it would be a useful thing to have and if it was a page the admins would monitor it a fair bit and make sure it's up to date, as it would be a very popular page.

 No. There's already a place that is monitored and updated frequently, tf2spreadsheet.blogspot.com. People don't need anything more than that. Pigophone 06:20, 27 September 2012 (PDT)

Template:Item icon

With the release of the new weapons, I have noticed an interesting occurrence in this template. When it is specified a link which does not exist, it simply displays a redlink. This could be changed with an to link to. Since this is a heavily used template, we should consider whether this is simply a minor inconvenience to be pushed with a later update, or if it should be pushed independently. Darkid 16:58, 27 June 2012 (PDT)

It's very doable, and the way it currently is does mess up the layout a lot. I'm going to go ahead and implement a similar version; it will try to use the backpack icon before it uses the unknown one. rZ 05:25, 28 June 2012 (PDT)

Scratch that, only an admin can do it. rZ 05:26, 28 June 2012 (PDT)

Dat protected page, yep. Anyways, it still seems a good idea. Anyone else wanna comment? Darkid 06:35, 29 June 2012 (PDT)

I suggest you go ask an admin about it, for example on the IRC channel.

Freakie

06:39, 29 June 2012 (PDT)

Two admins, WindPower and Moussekateer, agreed that the {{#ifexist:}} tag is too expensive for the server when this template is used many times in a single page. The best solution for now is to redirect the item icon images to the backpack images. rZ 06:42, 29 June 2012 (PDT)

I agree--but that's rather self-defeating, since they'll get overwritten. It is true that ifexist is expensive. BTW, how did you ask them? Darkid (|) 19:02, 29 June 2012 (PDT)

Sorry for the late response – I asked them through the #tfwiki-staff channel. rZ 12:08, 4 July 2012 (PDT)

Comics

Should the illustrations for "Soldier Needs a Home" and the Poopy Joe Senate Hearing transcripts be included in the Comics page? If not, are they going to just stay on the Pyromania page? 02:50, 28 June 2012 (PDT)

 Support The Poopy Joe script should be added. It's quite a story, and an addition to the TF2 lore. "soldier needs a home" is hilarious, but far too short. I wish the made the other pages as well. Anyway, it does explain how the dumpster diver set came to be. Perhaps that story will be continued some other time... K-Raider NL 02:23, 2 July 2012 (PDT)

TF2 Wiki Table of Contents

An Idea to help TF2 wiki user to search items with ease. It is an organized list with all classes and items.

The Organization works by using Althebeticalation, Classification, and Categorization.

The approved and finalized list will be placed on the navigation bar on the left side of this webage: or the TF2 Wiki sidebar.

Here is a picture preview: it will look much different on the actual page.

Tell me what you think. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by General Cap (talk) • (contribs) 13:34, 20:34, 28 June 2012

I took the liberty of correcting your formatting. Please create a new section and sign at the end of your posts with ~~~~. It will automatically add your signature and a time stamp. 16:44, 28 June 2012 (PDT)

I did. It just somehow got put to the side of the picture in stead of below if that's what you mean. Next time I will try a double space.

--General Cap 13:21, 29 June 2012 (PDT)

How would it work? Where would this list be located? What benefits would this list bring the Wiki? I need to know a little more about this list/project before I can make an educated opinion. — Xenak (Talk|Contribs) 13:58, 30 June 2012 (PDT)

Currently, that formatting hurts my eyes. However, the concept is a potentially useful one. This page does very nearly that already, it just isn't pretty. Honestly, if you were able to create and maintain it, there's no harm. However, I'm having trouble coming up with a good reason wherein I would actually want to see a list. Darkid (|) 14:04, 30 June 2012 (PDT)

A good reason for TF2 Wiki to have a Table of Contents is because Wikipedia is like an encyclopedia. I have never seen a book encyclopedia without a table of contents, so I thought it would be cool to add one. The list would also be best for searching all items on a single page, rather than having to go back a webpage and opening more pages to search for things, or by continuously searching for items. This also, is not the finalized product of the table of contents. If you would like a better idea of what it will look like, visit the hat Wiki page. I will repost that updated version very soon. I'm considering of also placing the item picture to the left of the item, the name in the middle, and the description and link on the right. I have also updated the above text.--General Cap 16:15, 1 July 2012 (PDT)

See: Hats

As I pointed out, we already have an alphabetized list (TOC). Likewise, the *search* functionality serves much better--you seem to have been implying that we'd list every hat, paint, item, etc on a single page (with images). This is too taxing. The sidebar is, as far as I know, too cluttered to really need any more items added to it. At best it would go on the main page, at worst it would go on the Hats page. What's wrong with the current hat list on the hats page (or misc list on the misc page)? They do the trick if you know what kind of item you need. Darkid (|) 16:18, 1 July 2012 (PDT)

Do you mean the Index? That's not really like a TOC. Also, there are only seven topics on the navigation sidebar. How would that clutter it more? Now that I think about it, why isn't the index on the side bar? Perhaps we should discuss this project more on the wiki chatline?--General Cap 10:57, 2 July 2012 (PDT)

 Support After General_Cap explained to me how this would work and where it would go, I now see that the benefits of this would be great to add to the wiki. Since the wiki is like an encyclopedia, having a list that shows everything could help a lot to get somewhere quickly. It doesn't even have to be for hats/miscs, either. It could document contests, major updates, hats/miscs, weapons, game mechanics, maps, characters, and much, much more all on the convenience of one page. — Xenak (Talk|Contribs) 11:13, 2 July 2012 (PDT)

 Support Like I said last time this was up for discussion. Would be good if this was entirely parasable with javascript in order to have a search/autocompletion feature for this, to make it a fast and searchable list. — Wind 19:21, 6 July 2012 (PDT)

 Support GeneralCap had explained me this idea months ago, and this means, he's been working on it for months too. Hell of a job to put all classes into that table of contents once he's fully done. I find the concept of this work very interesting and I believe it will massively improve the TF2Wikipedia if the administrators decide to give this idea a chance. This table documents alot, not just hats/miscs. Please don't let this slide away and ignore what he has been working on 2 months or more now. Discuss it if necessary, but I see great potential here. · T-Wayne · Talk 11:45, 11 July 2012 (PDT)

 No. You were told multiple times (some of those times by me) to start this discussion and insisted on bothering someone over email instead of doing it the right way. You've already burned a bridge with me, and this combined with the overall reinvention of the wheel I'm seeing doesn't give me much of a reason to voice support. -- Lagg 19:32, 13 July 2012 (PDT)

 No I honestly do not see the use of a list like this. If someone wanted to search for something but didn't know the exact name of what they were looking for, there are already numerous indices for doing so. On top of which, this is a Wiki, which has a search bar, which does serve a purpose. Finally, you have not presented a plan as to how to enact such a page or list, so unless you do then it simply creates a significant amount of work for others to plan out and execute. -- LordKelvin 19:41, 13 July 2012 (PDT)

It is just an Idea. Nothing has been approved at all yet. I can't go anywhere with this project until something has been approved. So far, I have no approval to actually publish this idea. The only thing I can do is ask for opinions if this would be a good idea. I am now planning to make a new model of the T.O.C on my own user discussion page. The picture was just a pre-view of what it would resemble. I've spent over two months in the making of the Table of Contents. I'm not willing to give it up now. Let me make an actual wiki page of the real T.O.C, and then consider if it should be put into effect or not. I will also admit that personal emailing was not a good idea. Everything I do from now on will be public, not just to one person. I apologize to WIND for doing this. --User:General Cap/signature

Cheese Wheel

Cheese Wheel

Somebody rename it please. I cant do it myself. --Genuine GAL 12:00, 4 July 2012 (PDT)

Yes you can.

1. Click the downward facing arrow tab at the top of the page.
2. Select Move.
3. Choose the new name and press the Move button.

Hopefully that'll solve your problem. (By the way, for future reference, the IRC is a much better place to ask for quick help.) rZ 12:06, 4 July 2012 (PDT)

I know. And I was the one who renamed Banana Peel, Goldfish and etc. But I couldnt rename the cheese ^^ Dunno why. Wiki said I cant do that. --Genuine GAL 11:57, 5 July 2012 (PDT)

should we have a section for MVM?

I understand how you guys want to keep the wiki from speculation, but we do have hard facts in the game code, solid easter eggs and secrets hinting towards something. We need somewhere that keeps this information together, i can only keep up from blotty relay's of information on SPUF.

There's no mention on here about the hidden tobor files, the robot heads, the animations, and it would be excelent to have an official resource on the Mystery thats being built up. the info we have is what valve want us to know! --Drake3011 14:25, 10 July 2012 (PDT)

It's still speculation. MVM is not something we plan to make an article about unless it is officially announced or released. rZ 14:50, 10 July 2012 (PDT)

City on Fire Item Sets

Public Enemy
Urban Professional
Dumpster Diver

Would now be an appropriate time to restore these pages? The Mann Co. Store now offers these item sets in bundles similar to the Shogun Pack.

Does this qualify as an item set or are we waiting for the tooltip to show up when mousing over?

Lastly, has anyone tried to craft the set hat with 4 refined and a weapon? 01:13, 12 July 2012 (PDT)

Yes the last thing is interesting for me too. --Genuine GAL 06:51, 13 July 2012 (PDT)

It's an item set when the schema says it is. At the moment, it doesn't. rZ 07:04, 13 July 2012 (PDT)

Unarmed Combat

Hey guys whats the problem with this? Wtf then the Wingstick? I think it should be their. Hey editors stop deleting this with no reason. --Genuine GAL 21:05, 14 July 2012 (PDT)

Plz say something. I dont like IRC i shall never go to talk on it. This guy - Hinaomi - is continuing to remove information. --Genuine GAL 05:44, 15 July 2012 (PDT)

If I remember correctly, these "level does not appear in backpack" bugs were around before, and were also removed for the same reason Hinaomi is giving you. In my opinion, the information you posted does not constitute bug-worthy information, nor does it constitute trivia (so don't consider moving it to there, as you were saying to Hinaomi). 05:52, 15 July 2012 (PDT)

This is a strange thinking... Its not a clip bug (like "brass beast clips with heavy's hands") that is very common. This is a rare bug which appears only for a few items in the game. So why not to mention it? I think we must do it for other tf2 players. So please stop delete it just because some tf2-wiki-editors think that it is a common bug. --Genuine GAL 07:32, 15 July 2012 (PDT)

Every item Does or Does not show a weapon level. This is evident from the infobox, or from anyone having the item. Please do not make more of these edits, or re-do any undone edits until we can resolve this issue. Likewise, please do not take personal offense or insult others if you disagree with them. Darkid (|) 07:37, 15 July 2012 (PDT)

This is an oldish discussion but I wanted to chime in. The Unarmed, Made Man and Bird-Man are all set up properly to show their levels, so it is a bug that they do not show up. They are missing key strings in tf_english, which Valve forgot to add. Once you plug those in, the levels show up fine. It's a bug from an oversight of Valve's. By all accounts the items are suppose to show their levels, they just don't because of missing strings. 100% a bug Balladofwindfishes 17:27, 22 July 2012 (PDT)

Project Feature Length

I came across some less viewed pages of the wiki (like those for custom maps and community updates) and I thought to myself, What if a bunch of editors worked together to make the article better, so we can feature it? A little more thinking and I had an idea: Make a "behind-the-scenes spotlight", where editors have their attention drawn to a certain page to improve its quality and expand upon it, to the point where we can feature it to everybody. This will allow some of the dusty parts of the wiki to shine like they were brand new, squeaky clean, top of the line pages.

I propose a new Project page outlining the details, and a nomination process similar to that for featured articles, but instead used for pages that should be highlighted to editors so they can improve them.

TL;DR Bring the editors' attention to a page and improve it so we can bring everyone's attention to the page by featuring it. rZ 16:55, 22 July 2012 (PDT)
Note: I'll have a mockup of the proposed project page after I get back from camp on August 16th. rZ 17:50, 22 July 2012 (PDT)

 Support I've noticed whilst fixing links that many parts of the Wiki, specifically the less-seen parts, can sometimes be old, outdated, and in need of a major overhaul. Bringing some of these pages into the editor's spotlight can prepare the article for the actual spotlight, and can give some pages that were never viable to be featured a very real chance to shine. — Xenak (Talk|Contribs) 17:04, 22 July 2012 (PDT)

Seems like a good idea, but that's what should be happening already. Rather than it being a dedicated project I think that we need to figure out a way to make what you said be on people's minds. The discussion pages are there to do exactly what you're describing, it's just people don't do it. Furthermore rZ has said that he is going to create a draft in his user namespace for this when he's back from his trip -- Lagg 18:11, 22 July 2012 (PDT)

 Support The custom maps pages could definitely need some work. I think this is a great way to do it --Liquid Fire @H|H 05:46, 23 July 2012 (PDT)

 Support Much like Lagg says, I think this should already be happening, but nonetheless this is a good way of brining editors together in collaboration and an good idea altogether. 12:52, 24 July 2012 (PDT)

The talk pages and IRC channel are available to co-ordinate efforts like this. Slapping a shiny label onto it and calling it a new project won't change anything if people aren't bothering to edit anyway. If you want to bring an article or task to the spotlight, post it here; that's what it's there for. i-ghost 10:25, 23 August 2012 (PDT)

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Bug Guidelines

TheDoctor messaged me awhile ago and gave me the idea for a guidelines page similar to the one Trivia has but for bugs. Over the last two days, I've been working on it, and I think it's ready for open discussion. Since bugs are becoming a large part of most articles (almost every weapon, and most hats have bugs!), there are more and more people adding bugs that may or may not be a bug. For instance, many people add clipping as a bug, when it is not by the Wiki's standard. Having a set of guidelines that sets in stone what is and what is not bugs should definitely clear up most of those issues. As aforemntioned, I have written them up and you can view them here.

If there is anything that should be removed/added, please don't hesitate to comment! I'd like to get as many opinions on this before I consider posting this, since this would be part of the Wiki guide. Thanks in advance! 09:02, 25 July 2012 (PDT)

As i assisted Wingless with some bug additions i can only say that i like it, and i hope more people think this is as good as i think it is. As always a good job Wingless. TheDoctor 09:04, 25 July 2012 (PDT)

 Support - One thing I would like to note is that your example of a good factual bug isn't true. The axtinguisher doesn't have the 'no random crits' attribute. — Armisael (T | C) 17:41, 8 August 2012 (PDT)

 Comment I changed that up. Thanks for pointing that out! 16:07, 9 August 2012 (PDT)

The preceding discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Weapon Trivia - what real-life weapon each one looks like

So far we've got some pages for items with trivia that the weapon 'seems to be (based on)...' some weapon in real life. The Rocket Launcher is one such page. However, several item pages do not, and, in some cases, such trivia has been removed. I figure we ought to be consistent in whether we have such trivia. One good rule of thumb was brought up in that if Valve (or, in the case of community items, the item creator) confirms what it is based on, then that's what we put, else we do not include it. However, for things like the Rocket Launcher, we need to determine whether Valve writing RPG on the concept art qualifies it as being the RPG-7. -FlaminSarge 16:41, 25 July 2012 (PDT)

I don't like that sort of trivia unless it's backed by Valve or the contributor saying it's true. Awhile back we had that the Winger was based on a gun, and the contributor came and said "no it wasn't...." and we were left with information that had been on the wiki that was wrong for so long. Balladofwindfishes 16:45, 25 July 2012 (PDT)

I agree. If it's just speculation, we should leave it out. But if the creator comes along and says, "Oh, yeah, that's based on <insert gun here>", then it's interesting trivia. RPG =/= RPG-7 (it could also be 1–6). "RPG" is just quicker to write than "Rocket Launcher". I'd vote for taking the trivia out until the creator (in this case, Valve) confirms it. dendodge 17:03, 25 July 2012 (PDT)

 Support for removal. They really bothered me during my Trivia reviews - they are, for the most part, speculation which is something the Wiki doesn't agree with. 18:18, 25 July 2012 (PDT)

TF2 WIKI TABLE OF CONTENTS: UPDATED PROJECT

The final work for the TF2 Wiki table of contents. Requesting review if it shall be put into effect.

It includes four pages. It had to be this way to be able to show everything.

Page four is not complete. It will need Further tweaking on later dates.

It has taken a total of four months to get this far into the project. DARKID was of assistance.

Links:

Part One

http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/User:General_Cap/Table_Of_Contents:_Part_One

Part Two

http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/User:General_Cap/Table_Of_Contents:_Part_Two

Part Three

http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/User:General_Cap/Table_Of_Contents:_Part_Three

Part Four: (Incomplete)

http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/User:General_Cap/Table_Of_Contents:_Part_Four

--General Cap 20:09, 27 July 2012 (PDT)

 Against As much as I can't deny a lot was put into this, I think this is completely unnecessary. This is just a simple copy-paste from several pages around the Wiki. If I want to find weapon for a certain class, say a Scout drink, there are several places, linked in the main page, where I can search for them (even entering "drink" in the search bar, which isn't a disambig, shows me some results and helps me to search what I want). The same can be said about hats or miscs. For map stamps, there's a single page for all of them. Basically, everything covered in this table of contents can be found with just a few clicks away from the main page. There are already enough resources for locating the info you want about whatever you want here and a table of contents like this is not a solution. It just grabs what we already have and it mashes it up altogether in a single (or four) page(s) which, in my honest opinion, only makes it harder to look through to find a certain item.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 17:45, 30 July 2012 (PDT)

Original Weapon stats

One of the things that's interesting to do is to look at how a weapon's stats got changed. However, it is rather hard to find the original weapon's stats. Would it be possible to, in the update history, list what the original stats were? RBGolbat 09:36, 1 August 2012 (PDT)

I have brought this up before in the Weapon Demonstration talk page. In short, I had expressed regret that the only way to view a weapon's original stats (such as the Sandman removing the Scout's double-jump and have the ability to stun Ubercharged enemies, or the Razorback slowing down the Sniper's speed) was to comb through the Update History (which is mostly updated by hand) and infer the stats from when Valve changed them.

As such there is little record of a definitive list of a weapon's original or changed attributes besides the current stats.

I had hoped that there would be a video archive of a weapon's original stats (as it is much easier to experience how a weapon functioned and looked), but it was deemed to be redundant and not particularly high on the priority list in the midst of re-doing the melee demonstrations. The videos are deleted anyway after they have been updated.

Thus, there is little chance to view how a weapon actually functioned or looked prior to the current demonstration unless the original creator/uploader kept a copy such as here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YgirY6n-vc

As you go further back, it becomes difficult if not impossible to obtain a meaningful demonstration without fiddling around in the game files yourself. Perhaps you can ask i-ghost for tips such as from the videos he has here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgixryQEcO8

18:05, 1 August 2012 (PDT)

What about the pages that announced their release? Don't those have them? And for the ones more recent, aren't they in the edit history?

Yes, but there remains the problem of trawling through this data, and probably not moving it outside the version history section, and what good does that really do in the end? Darkid (|) 20:40, 1 August 2012 (PDT)

Also, some of the original weapon announcement pages did not include a list of attributes; such as the Force-a-Nature. It used to be much easier to deal knockback. 02:59, 3 August 2012 (PDT)

Promotional items Template v2 Discussion

Because the last discussion ended in nothing, i wanted to renew it. I want to make a language switched template for it. It will seperate the promos into years, and will be alphabetical. I want opinions before i start with it. I think it is the same as the item timeline and should be done soon. Objections? δ³Σx² 07:46, 3 August 2012 (PDT)

Is this template anything like what you were planning to do? It is not year-categorized, but it does look the same. JerryPL ^Maggots! 07:56, 3 August 2012 (PDT)

No it is this page: [[Promotional items made as a language switched template. The reason behind it to stay up to date on every language. And to make it easier to read with the seperation into years. δ³Σx² 12:08, 3 August 2012 (PDT)

Ahh, alright, I getcha. I'll get on that ASAP. JerryPL ^Maggots! 13:58, 8 August 2012 (PDT)

Zodiac-based update idea?

I had a good idea for a future update. I was thinking Valve could introduce Zodiac-themed weapons and headgear. For example, a new meelee weapon for the Scout named "The Capricorn Club". Or a Knife for the Spy named "The Scorpio's Tail". Or even a peice of headgear that allows players to breath underwater, like "The Pisces's Periscope"! Thoughts and/or extra ideas? DemoKnight28 10:36, 5 August 2012 (PDT)

Interesting, but this isn't really the appropriate forum for game ideas, these pages are for discussion about the wiki. You should check out the Steam forums instead. —Moussekateer·talk 10:50, 5 August 2012 (PDT)

Weapon overlinking

Many weapon articles, Beggar's Bazooka for example, contain links to every weapon that takes up the same slot in the "See also" section. I'm really not excited about this. It's unnecessary, doesn't look good. Can we just standardize it so that we only link to the stock weapon that takes up the same slot? --SilverHammer 17:42, 10 August 2012 (PDT)

Go ahead and remove any instances you see of this. There's no point in the "See also" section repeating the nav which is directly underneath it. The "See also" section should be about closely related weapons (attribute-wise) or the weapon that it sub-classes from, and related strategy articles or other points of interest, not about every other weapon that fits into the same weapon class. i-ghost 09:02, 11 August 2012 (PDT)

Indeed, there was a discussion on the IRC awhile ago, agreeing that it's pointless. It creates a stupidly long list, as well as an eyesore that can be avoided easily. I was planning on removing them during my Article Reviews but go ahead anyway ^^ 11:00, 11 August 2012 (PDT)

Wiki-time?

What's the matter with the time of edits on the wiki? Examples:

• 2 edits. The last must be the first but... it's the last.
• I made a huge update on article Blood Brothers/ru and after that i did a minor update but it was marked as previous change. So currently it looks like i undid my minor update but it stay in the article correctly.

So wtf? --askarmuk, C? 17:27, 12 August 2012 (PDT)

Bug is still here. --askarmuk, C? 17:35, 13 August 2012 (PDT)

Promotional item list new time order?

It is such a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge list, so i thought why shouldnt we list the promos in years? 2012,2011,2010 etc. It would make it easier to spot the new promos and would also seperate the years and wouldnt give you one huge "sh*tlist" which you lose track of very soon. Smaller list for every year means in my opinion more readable for all persons. Soooo someone against or for it????? δ³Σx² 12:11, 13 August 2012 (PDT)

 Support The list is very long now. Too long. Splitting it up in this way makes it easier to find games (since most know when games were released) and definitely removes some of that scroll bar lengthening ridiculousness. 14:41, 14 August 2012 (PDT)

teamf6rtress.com Link?

I'm not sure where to put this, and if it's stupid then simply ignore me. The Left 4 Dead Blog posted a link to the MVM Web page (http://www.l4d.com/blog/post.php?id=8648), but the link said "teamf6rtress" instead of the actual URL. The whole URL, www.teamf6rtress.com/mvm/, redirected to the real MVM page, as I mentioned, however when I typed teamf6rtress.com it redirected to a fake Steam Community Profile of a user playing "Half-Life 3: Indev." The URL was http://sybolt.com/mvm/, as in Mann Vs. Machine. I also was sent once to http://sybolt.com/wvw/ but when I refreshed the page I received an Error 404. Is this some kind of sign of just a mistake? Is it just me being a total noob? Nintos 14:26, 15 August 2012 (PDT)

That domain is not owned by Valve; the owner can redirect it to any page they want. It's best to just ignore it. i-ghost 10:25, 23 August 2012 (PDT)

MvM Weapon Upgrade / Class Upgrade plan?

So is there a general plan for how the possible upgrades for each weapon will be handled? Maybe like a section on each weapon's page in the same style of Strange Parts information block? --Org 02:57, 16 August 2012 (PDT)

I have scrapped up a prototype of an upgrade table over here. Have a look and see if it's good enough. -- JerryPL ^Maggots! 03:25, 16 August 2012 (PDT)

I like the vertical one for two reasons. It would fit on smaller screens better and rows are much easier to templateize than columns. --Org 07:41, 16 August 2012 (PDT)

However, it fails to figure out how we would list exceptions to the upgrades. Would that be a different table? Darkid (|) 14:16, 21 August 2012 (PDT)

I made up some thoughts and i think the best way to have every robot avaiable on every robot page is a class nav bar. What is required? One sentry buster picture and one giant picture, and a general addition for the robots. My tryout for this here: User:TheDoctor/Robot_Nav_Bar . I think this would be nice. δ³Σx² 18:24, 21 August 2012 (PDT)

English pages in search results to come first?

Is there any way to make english pages appear in search results first? It's rather annoying to scroll down through all the translated pages before you find one in english. ErroR 05:16, 20 August 2012 (PDT)

Please use the add section button next time. This issue has been brought up several times before, and there has been no fix for it. It is not a fix that is really needed, either. rZ 05:19, 20 August 2012 (PDT)

Sorry about that, still need to get get used to the formatting. ErroR 07:07, 20 August 2012 (PDT)

I disagree, there is a solution to get rid of all the pages in the wrong language: replace the entire translation system with what wikipedia does: real language specific wikis that have links between them in the sidebar. It fixes all the bugs, but requires separate mediawiki installs and is a lot of work to change to.--Henke37 14:42, 22 August 2012 (PDT)

That "lot of work" would involve changing the location of every page that's been translated, ever. And, since the english page needs updating too, it would thus include every page in the wiki. That's completely unreasonable, and considering the benefit, pointless. Darkid (|) 16:06, 22 August 2012 (PDT)

Yeah, I understated the impact. And I do agree, it just isn't worth it. Not even if it was automated.--Henke37 17:48, 22 August 2012 (PDT)

Developer wiki link in the sidebar

I think that the sidebar should include a link to the official developer wiki along with the other cross wiki links.--Henke37 13:53, 22 August 2012 (PDT)

You'd need to ask Valve to link back to here and the other Wikis first, and all the Wikis would need to agree on it. Valve administer the VDC directly; non-employees can not modify the site. i-ghost 10:25, 23 August 2012 (PDT)

Are you saying that the link must be bidirectional? Also, the developer wiki is editable by anyone who bothers to register for an account (like myself).--Henke37 19:28, 24 August 2012 (PDT)

Correct, the linking must be mutual. And by administer I meant modifying the site interface, which includes the sidebar; only Valve employees can modify that on the VDC. i-ghost 19:58, 24 August 2012 (PDT)

Welcome Team

Prior to being on the TFWiki, I was part of another Wiki where they had a "welcoming committee" that seemed to be very successful. It was very easy to speak to other users, and new members would get help almost immediately. Indeed, there were less issues regarding newer members not reading rules, and misunderstanding them, and there was a real sense of community cohesion.

I'd like to be able to bring my own take on a welcoming committee to the TF Wiki, which is why I'm back (again) with the Welcome Team. The page I have created has information for existing members, who can simply become part of the team by signing their name on the respective table, as well as a section for new users to put any questions they may have which can be answered by anyone across the Wiki, be they team members or regular Wiki members. Indeed, having a userbox to show that you're a part of the team would definitely help newer members identify who they can turn to. There is also an example question I put just so you can see how I hope the Q&A section would be used in future. Remember, the more questions answered the better this page becomes in terms of handling new member's questions.

It might not sound very different to simply putting a welcome template on a users talk page and be done with it, but I think the page definitely would explain more (I hope) than what I'm trying to explain over here, so please take a look at it for yourselves and give me your opinions, regarding should this be pushed out or forgotten, different subtopics for Q&As, anything! Thanks in advance! 09:45, 23 August 2012 (PDT)

Welcoming users does not need to be formalised. It should happen naturally, however I've noticed that people just use the welcome template without really addressing the new user's specific needs, and in some cases include warnings (like show preview) in addition to the welcome template, which is confusing and contradictory. New users can use this discussion page or hop into the IRC to ask questions. Your proposal complicates what should be a simple and personalised task. If you see a new user who needs help, just post on their talk page to reassure them that help is available. It really is that simple. i-ghost 10:25, 23 August 2012 (PDT)

Ah, I understand. I was hoping to make the process perhaps more accessible, but I completely understand what you're saying. Maybe I am lengthening it rather than shortening it... 08:31, 24 August 2012 (PDT)

Project Feature Length - part 2

Note: See previous discussion above

I have started a very rough draft of a project page here. Please use this discussion to either voice your opinions on the idea, or to suggest changes to the page. rZ 10:46, 23 August 2012 (PDT)

If you substitute step one with "Post the page to here, the IRC channel, or here", you'd realise that you're trying to reinvent the wheel. i-ghost 10:54, 23 August 2012 (PDT)

You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. I believe this will be helpful to the community. rZ 11:02, 23 August 2012 (PDT)

Note sections on cosmetic articles and beyond

Recently, I decided to implement a section titled "Notes" to every article. My reasoning for this is, there's a lot of bad trivia out there. A lot of observations under trivia that, while interesting to read, don't fit in the article under the trivia guidelines. The addition of the Notes section solves that problem. It's a little like a trivia section, but a bit looser. The difference being that the Trivia section contains a neat or interesting story about the item itself, the production of the item, the history of the item, basically the item is the focus.

The Notes section, however, addresses the somewhat more meta facts.

The winners of the Hat Describing Contest were moved to their respective articles notes sections, for example. I felt this was an important fact to mention in the article, but not important enough to put in the top. Frankly, it felt tacked on and just didn't look good. Now it has a snug little place to go. Same goes for the few hats that appear in Portal 2.

The Batter's Helmet article featured a bit of trivia observing that the hat is worn by a couple of robots in MvM mode. I felt this wasn't worth having under the trivia section, but I really wanted to keep it so the Batter's Helmet article could link to the MvM pages. It fit perfectly in the note section.

As of right now, I've gotten all of the hats included in the Hat Describing Contest done, as well as all of the items found in Fall Crates. My intention was to finish all of the other cosmetics over the course of the next couple days, and then move on to weapons and classes.

I've been seeing my changes reverted offhandedly, one by one, by other editors who don't realize that I'm personally implementing this mass layout change. I understand why that's happening, as I didn't exactly give any warning. It also may not be as appealing as the current layout to some editors.

So go ahead and let me know what you guys think? If more people seem to disagree than agree, I'll go ahead and revert my changes. --SilverHammer 06:29, 8 September 2012 (PDT)

Notes sections aren't a new thing. People just don't use them enough. Also you should consider moving from trivia to notes a promotion rather than demotion. Trivia is for possibly interesting pieces of information. Notes are for things that are, well, noteworthy. I'm guessing that your edits are getting undone mostly because people aren't paying attention to the nature of the edit, it probably didn't help that you waited until just now to make a talk line about it. I personally am okay with someone doing this. Especially as far as the contributor credits and secondary but mostly irrelevant information like the item's original name are concerned. It's definitely respectable to give someone credit but the fact is that it isn't a high priority part of the page layout and should be arranged as such. -- Lagg 06:38, 8 September 2012 (PDT)

I think mass changes to formats need to be discussed more than this before being implemented. I don't like the notes section, it just adds an extra layer to the pages and the differences between notes and trivia are going to be hard for us to maintain, while we had easy to understand and simple rules regarding where contributor stuff goes. Right now I'm looking at the Red-Tape and half the notes seem like trivia, the other seem like they were one line fine in the opening paragraph. It seems to just be another layer of things we have to check on pages, versus a system that was working fine previously. I feel the notes section will just become a glorified pre-2010 trivia section, as it already seems to be. Balladofwindfishes 07:28, 8 September 2012 (PDT)

No need 'Notes' in da articles. 'Trivia' section is enough.

The Notes section, however, addresses the somewhat more meta facts - trivia rules need to be updated to that 'meta facts'. --askarmuk, C? 12:33, 8 September 2012 (PDT)

I understand the redundancy in having the workshop links and images on every single page. That does seem like something that is a little badly formatted, but a new section doesn't seem needed. What if we added an extra piece at the bottom of the Infobox with the workshop submission image, and a link to the submission itself and the name it was submitted with (even if the name is the same as the item in the game). Like this quick mock-up [1] . Balladofwindfishes 13:58, 8 September 2012 (PDT)

It's later in the day, and I believe I'll expand a bit on why I think the approach of a notes section isn't quite the best solution. Adding a notes section means that every single page, in every language, now has to be updated and have a new section maintained. With this new section, new rules need to be drafted up for the section and implemented, and these rules need to take awhile for people to get the feel for. It's a new section for editors to mess up editing in, being confused on what goes there, versus trivia, leading to more work for everyone. I see it now, as some people begin to try and implement your notes section by just changing the trivia section to now read "notes" which isn't really what would happen at all, and I think that confusion would continue for a long time (especially with no formal style guide), versus a system we have now that works fairly well. Further, I think an item infobox based solution would be more suited, if we're in need of a solution. This would mean they wouldn't have to be translated entirely to be added to pages, it would mean workshop thumbnails would not need to be manually added to pages in a gallery, and it would be a lot easier to maintain as item infoboxes are not things new editors usually edit, and they're not as confusing as a new section, as their purpose is very clear. The item infobox is already also where users look for this information, it's where contributor info is held, equip regions, etc, more "out of game" info. Not sure where to go with the descriptions. I think it's important information to preserve, since it's not easy to find this info elsewhere, and it does mean those people are connected to those items. But you're right, it is a little awkward there, same for kill icon submissions. Honestly, that might be fair game for adding right to the trivia section, as it's interesting information that's not an easy observation. Sure it'd add trivia sections to many pages that don't have them, but trivia sections are pretty stable these days as far as maintenance goes. I hope you understand where I'm coming from, this seems like a big solution for a little problem. Balladofwindfishes 20:34, 8 September 2012 (PDT)

This is not a good idea at all. For the first thing that I need to point out is that "Notes" is mainly used to point out things thats not involving the following: The Item was contributed via Steam Workshop under the name *******, The item desc was submitted by ****** for the Hat Describing Contest and other following things. That is half information/ half trivia, and it should be placed up as it's usually applied in (The Description section). Items involving in the P2 Crossover, Steam Workshop etc. should stay as they are. Or we might just need to move Halloween item description about the full moon effect to this Notes thing too, which is as mentioned a meta fact.

That counts also with the Pyroland assist descriptions. Another thing is that this will require a rewriting on other languages and that is from what I can say, is a waste of time for translators like myself. Im not saying this to be lazy, but this will be needed to be applied for every language. And some have only afew translators who are possibly stressed enough by keeping up with the Wiki articles that needs to be done as it is. For further more, that will not also mess up with previous work, but confuse the users who works on a translation and they will go like "What is this?". They will soon find out about that and will eventually getting frustrated (like I first did when I saw this for the first time) and possibly lay off editing at all. This will lead to a rewriting on guidelines also possibly and fuck up existing users way to edit. But by any means, go ahead and apply this. I will do as it's printed on the /en to keep up with current articles. I can spend some hours on fixing things, and not in a pitty way of saying. Take this up with the administration and/or staff and until then, I won't translate until this is settled with.

TNS 05:17, 10 September 2012 (PDT)

Adding a Workshop section to the right section of an article seems like a good idea, but facts like Description writers, Portal 2, and Contribution! page information will still be tacked on. What can be done about that? --SilverHammer 20:25, 10 September 2012 (PDT)

Requires modifying on the itembox template. TNS 22:43, 10 September 2012 (PDT)

If someone wants to give me access, I'd like to get right on that.--SilverHammer 23:57, 10 September 2012 (PDT)

That will need to be taken up with the administration/mods before anything like that would be approved. TNS 04:34, 11 September 2012 (PDT)

You should test it on your sandbox page. That way, you can just show the changes you made to an admin and they can push them through. Darkid (|) 09:09, 11 September 2012 (PDT)

"This melee weapon's Critical Hit animation is..."

Some Melee Weapon articles have this bit of info and some don't. Should all melee weapon articles have this, or in light of the melee weapon demonstration makeovers, should they all be removed?

Useful? Useless? What's the general consensus? 11:33, 12 September 2012 (PDT)

I'd say remove it, as you said the new demonstrations show that information anyway. We don't have a paragraph explaining exactly how the weapon animation looks; there's just no point. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 11:46, 12 September 2012 (PDT)

Agreed, the new Weapon Demos are capable of showing it far better than text (obviously). 11:52, 12 September 2012 (PDT)

I support the removal. ~Sven~ 15:31, 12 September 2012 (PDT)

Remove it, it's kind of pointless to state and the weapon demo shows it anyway Balladofwindfishes 16:54, 20 September 2012 (PDT)

MvM Mission Pages -- Legend needed

I am under the opinion that the templates generated for the mission breakdowns of the MvM maps (IE, Crash Course (mission)) could benefit from a legend explaining how the banding works, what's the difference between a weave and a sub wave, etc. I figured it out by staring at it for a bit but the information as it stands is not the clearest format it could be expressed in, in my opinion. --Org 00:01, 15 September 2012 (PDT)

New Patner!

Hey guys! I have a new partner that I recently told about the wiki. ( Sorry for bad grammar ) Anyways, he said it would be great if we could be well known, he loves blogs and it just seems fun

• Actual quote from him*

His name is Waffles1092, admin of Organization XII, ( Me to ) Tolerates anyone, has good trades, and is reliable, he would be great in the wiki This is all I have to say for now, I'll post more later! — The preceding unsigned comment was added by TTPNColgate (talk) • (contribs)

Tell your partner I said hello. --Piemanmoo 16:08, 20 September 2012 (PDT)

Anybody can edit the wiki, we don't do "partnerships" with specific individuals. rZ 16:37, 20 September 2012 (PDT)

'See Also' section - what's supposed to be in it?

As Hinaomi has just started 'cleaning up' all of the weapon pages, removing links to similar weapons, I wonder what is actually supposed to go into this section. After a brief discussion on IRC, we couldn't come to real general consensus. I had ideas that the see also section should be possibly used for:

• Visually similar items
• The same type of weapon (although there is the weapon nav right below)
• Having some other link, like promotional items linking to the game which they were from (although this should be explained in the opening paragraph)

Wikipedia states that the see also section is 'ultimately a matter of editorial judgment and common sense' So, what do you think should be in here? Pigophone 18:32, 21 September 2012 (PDT)

I think weapon in similar type should not add because nav box can access and easier to see. Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions) 18:33, 21 September 2012 (PDT)

Then again, two weapons from two different classes could be very similar, and the nav wouldn't show that - the user might want to know that there are other items like it. For example, Mad Milk linking to Jarate and vise-sersa. Pigophone 18:39, 21 September 2012 (PDT)

It should add if different class but if same class, I think nope. Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions) 18:43, 21 September 2012 (PDT)

In my think I think See Also section should have

• The same type weapon of different class
• The game that was Promotional (If have)
• Weapon Strategy

That's all in my think. Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions) 18:50, 21 September 2012 (PDT)

I miss similar items. I mean the horific headsplitter which has a cleaver and also the flying guillotine. It should be at least linked to it. Also we are not speed dating so take your time with each edit. δ³Σx² > Add + or - skills for me 19:00, 21 September 2012 (PDT)

It was removed on the horific headsplitter page (I added it by myself but someone removed it) Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions) 19:33, 21 September 2012 (PDT)

Everyone can remove or add links, that doesnt make it always right or wrong. I still think it deserves to stay because of the similarity with the item. δ³Σx² > Add + or - skills for me 19:50, 21 September 2012 (PDT)

So I make it in short that See Also section should have

• The same type weapon of different class
• The game that was Promotional (If have)
• The similar items
• Weapon Strategy

Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions) 20:16, 21 September 2012 (PDT)

To clarify, as I'm sorry your english is not entirely understandable, we are to list:

• Reskins of this weapon (i.e. identical damage weapons)
• The source game (for promotional items)
• Weapon Strategy
• Visually similar items

Am I correct? Darkid (|) 18:19, 22 September 2012 (PDT)

Identical weapons would be displayed in the damage box, so I don't think that its necessary to show that. Pigophone 18:23, 22 September 2012 (PDT)

Although the Robo-Sandvich, for example, as it's a quite special weapon, is most likely ok to be in the see also section for Sandvich Pigophone 19:01, 22 September 2012 (PDT)

I didn't mean reskin, I mean the same type weapon of different class (e.g. Mad milk and Jarate). And reskin should not go there because most reskin weapon is the same class weapon (e.g. Robo-Sandvich is reskin of Sandvich, Maul is reskin of Homewrecker) Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions) 18:58, 22 September 2012 (PDT)

I feel that 'See also' should include: Further reading, or possible confusions. Thus, visually similar items (Headsplitter and Flying Guillotine) along with reskins (Pistol and Lugermorph). It would be excessive for, say, the pyro to have 7 'see also' links for his/her melee weapons for three reasons: 1, those items are in the weapons nav box. 2, those items are in the crafting guide box. 3, it clogs the space. Reskins are limited in number and seem to me to be a related article, thus ideal for 'see also'. Darkid (|) 19:17, 22 September 2012 (PDT)

I think reskins should be listed, except in the case where the reskin is for lots of classes (so the Saxxy for example wouldn't be listed on every stock page, but the Black Rose should be listed on the knife page). It is so of redundant, but the weapons list is both huge and auto-collapsed, so finding it is not easy. And also the nav doesn't really note the item is a reskin. Balladofwindfishes 19:18, 22 September 2012 (PDT)

I think reskin should add only special (e.g. Robo-Sandvich that can earned by open box only) Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions) 19:25, 22 September 2012 (PDT)

I can only see that ending in arguments. "No, I think this should be on the page, it's an important reskin!" "Well no, it isn't sorry" and so on. What defines "special" specifically, so that there won't be any problems with editors adding or removing it to have it undone by a different opinion. Balladofwindfishes 20:55, 22 September 2012 (PDT)

As I recall, the word 'reskin' does that all on it's own - no qualifiers necessary. — Armisael (T · C) 20:56, 22 September 2012 (PDT)

I still shudder at the memories of the argument on the reskin page itself. Balladofwindfishes 21:00, 22 September 2012 (PDT)

All those opinions, like little edits full of concrete, but still vulnerable. It's funny isnt it? What should stay there forever or only for a limited time? In the end, you die on the moon wondering if your bowels will let go, so bottom line is instead of turning the wiki into glass by doing a sh*tstorm of edits on the see also area we should just listen to our mind(s), and dig deep. After that Professor Black ist at your service and is gonna tell you how the wiki will work from this day on.
Rule #0: Weapon strategy always at first or last no middle.
Rule #1: Reskins of Weapons are not needed in the see also area (already link in "damage and function times" and in the "nav bar")
Rule #2: Link to the Game for the promo item (always even if the item only drops the history must be there)
Rule #3: Visually similar items as a link are needed because there is no visual or name reference to see for yourself. ; Dr. Black at your service. Viva reality. Why do we need a link from mad milk to jarate? Doesn't make sense to me, and i know all this little tf2 secrets. There are 2xthrowable liquid weapons, okay. Still different, very different, function itself. Similarity is only the throw(?) and slot. If we werent be Paralytic with giddiness we could update the nav bars into reskins and normal weapons, which would be very nice and good, but whatever. Ta mates. δ³Σx² > Add + or - skills for me 21:08, 22 September 2012 (PDT)

Kinda agree, except the strategy should on the first only, not last. Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions) 21:16, 22 September 2012 (PDT)

Blue weapon images

For most (all?) of the weapons, there are blue versions of the images, e.g. File:BLU Powerjack.png. These files are not used anywhere, should they be deleted? Darkid (|) 09:30, 23 September 2012 (PDT)

These are uploaded for the sake of completion, and for when somebody bothers to add buttons to {{Item infobox}} to swap between the two images if the 3D image can't be loaded/isn't available. i-ghost 06:38, 27 September 2012 (PDT)