Team Fortress Wiki:Discussion

create a new section

New version of the Weapons page.

Original: Weapons
User:Zoolooman/Weapons
User:Zoolooman/Weapons2

I made two possibilities, both of which sort the page by class instead of slot. I was implementing Weapons2, but seb wanted a vote, so why not? I prefer Weapons2 because it's less cluttered. What do you prefer and why? Zoolooman 23:52, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

 Weapons2 I prefer Weapons 2. It looks better and doesn't have that taunt kill explanation that isn't necessary on the first one. I will die translating any of them, btw :D -- Swordz (talk | contribs) 23:55, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

 Weapons I prefer User:Zoolooman/Weapons because it has more info (pretty attributes) and doesn't look all that cluttered (with the exception of Demoman secondary). Tauntkills however are better on User:Zoolooman/Weapons2, because they use the same table style and more consistent columns compared to the rest of the page. So my vote would be User:Zoolooman/Weapons + Tauntkills from User:Zoolooman/Weapons2 — Wind 23:56, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

 Weapons2 I'm all for reducing the amount of duplicate information across the wiki. -- Pilk _(talk) 23:59, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

The only element I preferred of the first Weapons was the 'Notes' section. I think it would assist in the page's primary purpose, which is a comparison. Hard damage stats isn't something I believe most readers would be interested in immediately, and instead, the 'Notes' cell should mirror the Backpack loadout stats. The remainder of the first Weapons page I would prefer (including the taunt kills table, I don't think the template suits the rest of the page). seb26 [talk] 00:00, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Having backpack statistics present in the table is something that I think will help readers immensely in comparing weapons, which as I stated is the primary purpose (and not only just a listing of all weapons). I  Support User:Zoolooman/Weapons2 with the addition of these stats in a new 'Notes' column. seb26 [talk] 00:07, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

 Weapons I like having the notes column since it is a fast way to compare weapon's attributes between classes. KillerKooK 00:24, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

 Weapons I really love Weapons2 but its lack of the freaking notes column (which is essential to compare stats/effects between different weapons - the main reason I, and certainly most people, read the page), I'm forced to go with Weapons1. If you add the notes column or strip it down to the bare stats à là backpack style I would vote for Weapons2. tl;dr version - Notes column != clutter. Stab ! 02:02, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Nobody reads the page for that, Stab. The current version of the page DOESN'T have that "feature," because nobody needs it when they're digging around a list of damage comparisons. Zoolooman 04:58, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Eh... it used to have in back in the tf2wiki.net days, which is probably where you adapted your Weapons1 page from...

Also how can you declare nobody reads it for comparing backpack stats? Just because you "dig the list" just for damage comparisons, doesn't mean everyone "digs" it for the same reason; I'm not the only one who believes the article has much more potential than being just another "damage comparison list" as you put it, almost everyone who commented on this (Wind, seb26, KillerKooK and me) think keeping the notes column feature is a good idea, specially since your design facilitates class-weapon comparison. I don't get why you're so up in arms about it.

One last thing, I didn't get why did you bother putting a vote up if you go and implement your weapons2 design just 5 hours after... Stab ! 20:08, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Calm down. People were updating the wiki with new weapons and I decided to save everyone a great deal of time by letting people add onto a class sorted list instead of a slot sorted one. Now, if you'll read very carefully, the version of Weapons I replaced DID NOT have attribute info, and thus nobody could've been using it to compare weapon attributes. This isn't a matter of choice; it would be literally impossible to do, as it didn't have that information whatsoever. Also, I didn't build anything off the TFwiki version. I pulled Zoolooman/Weapons from our class pages. Zoolooman 20:15, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, the original Weapons page did not have the backpack attributes in it, only damage numbers. By putting Weapons2 over it, they are now sorted by class; that's the only thing that Zoolooman has changed to the Weapons page so far, he hasn't removed anything from what was already there. The addition of backpack attributes, which I am also in support of, is yet another cool addition that I hope Zoolooman will do; but it is an addition, he didn't remove it. — Wind 20:20, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I'll be adding attributes over the weekend. Zoolooman 20:22, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Hey, I'm calm, It's hard to express emotions through text so I completely understand that the above text might sound cold or angry-toned, but I assure you that's not the case :) That said, back on subject, you had already said that the current article does not have attributes, but based on the feedback on this page I would say it would make a welcome [re]addition as it would not "clutter" the page and it would give the article much more potential, for me and I'm sure many more users. You can still use it to compare damage but you'd be able to compare stats as well. Stab ! 20:33, 18 December 2010 (UTC)EDIT: I'm 11 minutes late, the wiki is slow today. Stab ! 20:38, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

 Weapons I think it should be made to have the best of both worlds. I really like the more in-depth look at the damage values in Weapons2 but I also like the easy-to-read and user-friendly pros and cons attributes in the first Weapons template. Brah 03:58, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

 Weapons I personal like 1 because I think that the in-depth look at the damage values and attributes are really efficient and that the notes column are just well ...organized I guess. But if the notes section were to be added to the second weapons template, then I would vote for weapons 2. CardBored 12:41, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Nasty vs. Fancy update

Due to the recent update releasing much of the custom skins from Nasty vs. Fancy should we make a page for it? or just link it to the original page of the "Update" page? {{subst:void|This template should always be substituted. Please change {{Unsigned}} to {{subst:Unsigned}}}}— The preceding unsigned comment was added by CrazedPorcupine (talk) • (contribs) 05:46, 18 December 2010

I'd suggest just linking to the "Update" page since not all of the skins were made into legitimate items. That might set precedent for making pages for unofficial skins, which I believe might be confusing for new players. Larkke 14:32, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Collapsible table sliding animation

I've noticed there is a new collapsible table animation on most navboxes. An example of it:

I think it looks cool but I often find it to perform slowly and in general is quite annoying, especially on the smaller navboxes (like the Achievement one above). I've also find it chops off the edges of some tables and if the table stretches across the page then it seems to not show the 'hide' button at all. Could we possibly restore it back to the old way of just opening and closing? seb26 [talk] 23:13, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the speed is configurable. Could you give an example of a chopped table? --CruelCow ^(talk) 01:29, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

User:Seb26 and Crate#Series_.236_-_Festive_Winter_Crate (when closed). And even if it is configurable I still think it would look silly speeding open and closed. seb26 [talk] 02:05, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Crate#Series_.236_-_Festive_Winter_Crate looks normal to me, User:Seb26 doesn't. But I agree, the hide/show animation is sluggish (sometimes my browser even freezes or displays a blank page for a sec before rendering the sloppy animation) and it would be better if it was removed or optimized or something. Stab ! 02:10, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

It's quite annoying and unprofessional when it chops the edges of tables off. There was nothing wrong with the old one. Can we revert it, or fix it please? – Smashman _(talk) 21:13, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Reverted. — Wind 08:28, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

VINTAGE BAN HAMMER

An item which was recently discover was the Vintage Ban hammer.

It is described: "level 9001 mallet of banishment"

Bans steam accounts of players killed

In a lighter color text it says that the item is not real and a joke

Profile link http://www.tf2items.com/profiles/76561197960287930 --QuincytheDestroyer 13:26, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

It's a joke. See User talk:Nineaxis#Ban_Hammer. — NVis (talk) 13:35, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Nav Boxes for all Previous Major Updates

I really like the update nav we have for new updates, but it only doesn't go back very far. Has there been any consideration to making navs for every major update (as in the updates listed as major updates on tf2.com)? I think for archival purposes, it would be a nice resource to know what maps were added with the Heavy update, for example. Balladofwindfishes 21:00, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

It's not a bad idea. I support. -- Swordz (talk | contribs) 21:03, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

 Support: Sounds like a great idea. – Smashman _(talk) 21:09, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Yeah that'd be cool, as long as someone is willing to do it. seb26 [talk] 22:12, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I took the liberty to create one to the Heavy Update (click dis), to test. However, when i tried to link "Videos" to the Meet the Team page, the template broke, so if someone knows how to fix it, feel free to edit the page -- Swordz (talk | contribs) 22:18, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Here: Template:HeavyUpdateNav I think it looks ok. If the idea gets accepted, i can do the others -- Swordz (talk | contribs) 23:14, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Update: Also did Template:PyroUpdateNav, Template:EngineerUpdateNav and Template:GoldrushUpdateNav. If an admin approves, i can start putting it on the respective pages.

You forgot Coldfront for the Engy update Balladofwindfishes 14:39, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

 Support I likez. The only thing I worry about is the number of navs on some articles, but that's another issue. —Moussekateer·talk 16:17, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

 Support Do it. And quit spamming this in the IRC please. -- OluapPlayer _(t) 16:19, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Done. Also did Scout too. I'm going to try to do the rest latur. -- Swordz (talk | contribs) 16:56, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I think everything that could be transformed into templates are done mates. Heavy, Pyro, Goldrush, War, Sniper vs Spy, Classless, Engineer. (Wintergreen did the classless one). -- Swordz (talk | contribs) 20:13, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Awesome, by the way, the Rocket Jumper and Sticky Jumper are not in any template, even though both were added during major updates Balladofwindfishes 01:03, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

'Sockets' coming to TF2?

As in items that augment weapons. Read the stuff here. Everyone's probably seen it, but I thought I'd bring it up anyway. Should we cover it? Valve - making TF2 more like an MMO everyday. – Smashman _(talk) 15:23, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Not sure. Valve have a history of adding attributes they don't use. There's a lot of attributes on this list that's been there for ages and never used. —Moussekateer·talk 15:25, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

True, but these definitely seem to have been added for a reason. Most of those unused attributes are general ideas they may have had. – Smashman _(talk) 15:32, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

"'TF_SacredMedicine_Desc' 'While under the effects, damage done\nand damage taken will be mini-crits.\nYou will also move much faster.'" - Sounds like the Buffalo Steak Sandvich to me. -The Neotank ( | Talk) 15:35, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

That's probably the name of the original peyote cactus that the steak was originally going to be. Since it has the same effect as the steak, this makes it more likely Balladofwindfishes 15:38, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Cool, I hadn't seen this. It's likely that it's just a bunch of stuff that Valve is testing out. I don't think there is a need to mention it here (beyond this talk page) until it is actually implemented, if that even ever happens. This wouldn't be the first set of strings that were in the file but not used. -- - _{(talk | contribs)} -- 17:53, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Class_nav Tranlation Switching

So, i made a test version of Scout_nav template with translation switching: http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/User:DrAkcel/NavProto. This version only works properly with Russian and French language (But this can be sure fixed). So, anyone want a real working version of this? Just vote here ^{(T | C)} 15:47, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Possible New Items

Hello, from playing sam and max, devil's playhouse.

I got a few ideas for a new weapon and a some misc, items that I can think could go well with Poker Night winning items, the weapon is a shotgun that the character 'Stinky' owns in Sam and Max 304:Beyond the alley of the dolls for the engineer and a three badges that appear in Sam and Max 303: They Stole Max's Brain!, they are the badges that Sam much collect to get close to Max's body in the game.

I dont know if they suggestion goes here or not, so please correct me if it doesn't belong here NMWalker1991 00:29, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

We have no control over the game and as such suggesting stuff to us is useless. The Steam Forums are your best bet. – Smashman _(talk) 00:33, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Normaly item suggestions don't go on the wiki, you can model them and suggest them to Valve or write an email to Valve to suggest the idea, but you could need TellTale's acknoledgement too. The best way is using the contribute site after modeling the items (Or write a thread on SPUF as Smashman suggested). Tturbo 00:35, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

By normally he means never. There's no point in suggesting it to us. We can't do anything about it. – Smashman _(talk) 00:39, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Strategy pages based around combating classes?

I know we have the match-ups for each class, but that is more of a general overview than something in-depth. Just now, as we have strategy pages based around how to effectively play a class, couldn't we have pages based around how to effectively play against a class? It could even extend from general strategy to how to best counter or avoid specific weapons. Check my user page for an example of what I am hoping to accomplish.

What say ye? --Bri 00:53, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

 Support - I don't have any objection against it; the only remark I have is that these pages, in order to stay of high quality, should be watched by a... watchful eye~ (you?). A good idea though :3 — Wind 21:38, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

 Support - People are more obsess with how they play one class that they lack the true knowledge to combat other classes. A good guide for this will surely help a newbie out. (Also causes less ignorant for those: OMGZ DEMOSPAM ESH TOOZ OP) Wintergreen 04:21, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

 Support - I support this style for newbies, makes perfect sense. —Moussekateer·talk 04:27, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

 Support - as long as it doesn't end up as messy as the Community Strategy pages, because those are utterly horrible to read through. I suppose it's easier to watch it from the beginning than trying to combat a mess later on, though; so I'm with Wind. -- Netshroud (talk | contribs) 04:28, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

 Support But only as long as the moderation is very strict. Zoolooman 05:14, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Assuming this gets accepted, should we extend the matchup pages or create an entirely new page dedicated to anti-classing? --Bri 14:25, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

A new page might be more appropriate, as the match-up pages are quite long as is. Just for readability's sake. NihonTiger 18:17, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

I have some comments about the standard. I was thinking, at the top of the page, there should be one domination line about the specific class. Whom would this quote be from? It would be from the class to the right of the anti-class on the front-page. The Engineer is quoted on the Anti Heavy page, the Medic is quoted on the Anti Engineer page, and so on. In addition to this, I was thinking we could get shots of all the classes in their humiliation poses to float to the right of their respective Anti Class Strategy page to spice things up a bit. --Bri 00:26, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Should have done this beforehand. Anyway: Team Fortress Wiki:Anti-Class Strategies --Bri 06:21, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

The demonstration videos...

I was wondering, seeing as we are doing the weapon demonstration videos, maybe we could also do some polycount pack demonstration videos, you know like showing off the items and showing how the item set bonus works. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ihasnotomato (talk) • (contribs) 11:55, 26 December 2010

Damage inlining

The definition for long short and medium range is being copied currently across 100 pages. This will be a maintainence nightmare if it isn't already, (pages are already inconsistent with this info:

• Move to damage page.

or

• Move to template, and place template on each page.

For sure we should not maintain this across several pages. UltimateTerabyte 20:16, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

I vote keep it all on the damage page. I dont think people would be that interested in seeing it on every weapon page, and people who would want to see it can still easily find it on the damage page Natemckn 23:50, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

My new hatnav concept

I saw that the hatnav is getting a bit unruly, so I whipped up a concept redesign that involves collapsible categories, so that it wont get huge when there are more hats. I made it so that when placing the nav, you can specify a category to default to open by doing something like {{hatnav|scout}}, which would produce the following:

Notice how the scout category is already expanded. With one category being expanded it is a fair amount smaller than the current one, but when viewing at lower resolutions, mine becomes significantly smaller than the current one. So, yeah, opinions? comments? statements about how much I suck? Natemckn 23:50, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Would be nice if clicking on the orange bar expanded them. Maybe it's a usability thing, but on a 22" inscreen, noticing in tiny writing the show button on the far right took a few. Can you do this? UltimateTerabyte 23:53, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Good point. Unfortunately I am a newb and have no idea if this is possible, so if anyone else knows, please let me know. Natemckn 23:55, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

 Support I like this new nav. Only issues I have are simply what UltimateTerabyte has already mentioned and I don't really see the need in a separate section specifically for the Halloween hats, I would personally prefer it to be merged with the rest of the all hat section. Other then that I believe you have done a great job ^Scatman _John (Talk | Contrib) 01:05, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Scatman, a Halloween section is not needed. The Headsplitter drops like a normal hat, and the Cadaver's Cranium isn't even in that section (because it's a Heavy hat). Right now it's misleading about those two hats, implying the Headsplitter is something special, when it's just a normal hat. Balladofwindfishes 01:22, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

OK, I'm gonna merge those Natemckn 01:25, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

 Support: I was considering just this, myself. – Smashman _(talk) 18:50, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

redirect pages for russian language

There's a little problem. Now if somebody wants to search for, for example, Black Box, and types it's name in russian, we will see a list of close articles and title "page ... does not exist". Acticle about it will be 4th or 5th in list, and names of articles in list are in english. I think we can make redirect-pages with russian names (http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Черный_ящик) so searching will be better. I dont know anything about this problem in other languages but think it is. And sorry for my english... Juffin 06:39, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, we currently use these for other languages. Feel free to make some for Russian articles, but remember to use the template {{R lang}} afterwards on the page, e.g. #REDIRECT [[Article]] {{R lang|ru}}, as this helps to keep track of these redirects. seb26 [talk] 06:43, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Okay, i'm starting. Juffin 08:46, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Tabbed boxes

Do you prefer this:

Or this (Imagine there was a class-specific weapon table instead of biographies)? User:WindPower/VerticalTest

Or this (Imagine there was only weapons on that table)?

[hide]Some sort of crazy super-nav with everything

•  Scout
•  Soldier
•  Pyro
•  Demoman
•  Heavy
•  Engineer
•  Medic
•  Sniper
•  Spy
• All

Weapons	Primary: Rocket Launcher • Direct Hit • Black Box • Rocket Jumper Secondary: Shotgun • Buff Banner • Gunboats • Battalion's Backup Melee: Shovel • Equalizer • Pain Train • Frying Pan Taunt: Kamikaze
Abilities	Rocket jump • Juggling • Aerial
Hats/Misc	Original: Soldier's Stash Classless: Stainless Pot • Tyrant's Helm Community: Killer's Kabuto • Sergeant's Drill Hat Mann-Conomy: Grenadier's Softcap • Chieftain's Challenge • Dr's Dapper Topper • Stout Shako Australian Christmas: Exquisite Rack • Defiant Spartan Promotional: Lumbricus Lid Misc: Gentle Manne's Service Medal
Strategy	Soldier strategy • Soldier match-ups • Team strategy
Character	Meet the Soldier • Responses • Taunts • Voice commands
Achievements	Soldier achievements (How to)
Other	WAR! Update • References

Weapons	Primary: Flamethrower • Backburner • Degreaser Secondary: Shotgun • Flare Gun Melee: Fire Axe • Axtinguisher • Homewrecker • Powerjack • Back Scratcher Taunt: Hadouken
Abilities	Fire • Compression blast • Juggling • Overheal
Hats/Misc	Original: Pyro's Beanie Classless: Brigade Helm • Respectless Rubber Glove Community: Triboniophorus Tyrannus • Vintage Merryweather Mann-Conomy: Attendant • Handyman's Handle • Napper's Respite • Old Guadalajara Promotional: Foster's Facade Australian Christmas: Madame Dixie • Pyromancer's Mask • Prancer's Pride Misc: Whiskered Gentleman • Stockbroker's Scarf
Strategy	Pyro strategy • Pyro match-ups • Ambushing • Spy-checking • Team strategy
Character	Taunts • Voice commands • Responses
Achievements	Pyro achievements (How to)
Other	Pyro Update • References

Weapons	Primary: Grenade Launcher • Loch-n-Load Secondary: Stickybomb Launcher • Chargin' Targe • Scottish Resistance • Sticky Jumper Melee: Bottle • Eyelander • Pain Train • Scotsman's Skullcutter • Frying Pan • Horseless Headless Horsemann's Headtaker • Ullapool Caber • Claidheamh Mòr Taunt: Decapitation
Abilities	Sticky jump • Juggling
Hats/Misc	Original: Demoman's Fro Classless: Glengarry Bonnet • Scotsman's Stove Pipe Community: Hustler's Hallmark • Tippler's Tricorne Mann-Conomy: Carouser's Capotain • Rimmed Raincatcher • Sober Stuntman Australian Christmas: Scotch Bonnet • Prince Tavish's Crown Promotional: N/A Misc: Dangeresque, Too?
Strategy	Demoman strategy • Demoman match-ups • Team strategy
Character	Meet the Demoman • Responses • Taunts • Voice commands
Achievements	Demoman achievements (How to)
Other	WAR! Update • References

hoovy. boolet.

spy sappan mah tab!

MEDIC!

snoypa

SPY!

All class stuff

show;hide

Animations can be disabled as shown here. — Wind 08:27, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

 Support 3 --Bri 08:34, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

 Support I like 3 as well. ^Scatman _John (Talk | Contrib) 08:38, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

 Support I must say 3 is best, 2 is a very very close second though. so elegant they both are. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by K-Mac (talk) • (contribs)

 Support It's about time someone thinks about changing these old ugly nav. I prefer the second one, though the third is great too. The second has the advantage that we could have one nav for everything just need to click on the class symbol to have you information, you'll need one for class, on for weapons, one for hats and that's make 3 templates instead of 3x9=27... Great job here Wind. Tturbo 09:02, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

 Oppose It looks nice but it is unclear what issues this actually addresses. Collapsible navs are what were implemented to reduce the presence of templates on a page. Adding flashy transition effects is nice but in the end this is not what we are meant to be serving to readers. -- Pilk _(talk) 09:12, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

 Support It's... will [[3]] marry me?. -RJs 09:23, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

 Neutral While it's definitely a cool concept, it remains to see how useful it will actually be. -- Netshroud (talk | contribs) 09:37, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

 Neutral: It actually appears to bug out for me. D: – Smashman _(talk) 09:53, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Ctrl+F5 a few times~ — Wind 09:54, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

 Awesome! I really like the idea of using that last one everywhere. It essentially combines a whole ton of navs into one simple box. The way I see it, if you're looking for a bunch of information on the Scout, it's easier to have it all there. That way you can jump from hats to weapons to strategy without needing to search or hunt down the pages. All it needs is to show the proper tab by default and I think it will really be a boon to the way users read the Wiki.

I also have an idea of what to do with the class bio nav. Tweak it a little bit so that the tabs are on top and the whole thing is wider, then have each page link to the class page in some way. Like that it could replace the static class images on the front page. -- - _{(talk | contribs)} -- 14:38, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I made the super-nav have the ability to start on a different tab (i think). It accepts an input like {{supernav|pyro}}, which would make it start on the pyro tab (demonstrated above). but for whatever reason the title bar still says "scout". Anyone know why this is? Natemckn 16:23, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

 3: Also, Ability: Bleeding made me laugh. --CruelCow ^(talk) 17:13, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

 2 3 is a very close 2nd place though. Stab ! 19:00, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

 Support This looks sexy as hell. -- OluapPlayer _(t) 19:09, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

 Oppose for now. Trying this page and a few of Wind's test pages in Firefox and IE8 breaks all boxes. I don't believe the issue is the lack of CTRL + F5 because I've cleared out my cache, cookies, everything and it still breaks (JS is on too). In any event, you cannot expect every reader to CTRL + F5, seriously. Until this can be tested and perfected (or at the least, a working alternative can be provided) on all browsers (including the Steam web browser), operating systems and configurations, I'm opposed to it being used anywhere extensively. On the subject, I'd like to see animations removed from standard navboxes – they are too slow, clunky and the bottom border of the closed box disappears. It's frustrating to use them. seb26 [talk] 21:23, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

 Comment want to put this out there:

• Works on IE8 (and on IE7, but I don't have it) (Rounded corners don't work on IE7 or IE8 though, but that's a minor annoyance)
• Works on Steam browser
• Works on Chrome, Firefox, probably Opera
• Requires cache clearing because it has new JavaScript and CSS. Obviously we can't expect readers to clear their cache every time, but cache clearing happens automatically over time, which is why I moved the code to the Common.js/Common.css right now; this way, caches will have picked it up by the time this discussion ends, so ctrl+F5'ing will not be required at this point anymore.
• Animations can be disabled; they can also be disabled per-browser in case some browsers don't handle it (I've found all browsers to display them in the expected 250ms duration except Internet Explorer which took about 500ms, so they can be disabled in IE only). Animations aren't as bad as they seem; when short like this (who can click and start reading instantaneously 250ms after clicking?), they don't reduce usability but may actually improve it by naturally pointing the eye at the interesting (changing) region of the screen.
• This vote (at least the vote between choices 2 and 3) is not about the box content, but about the tab style (icon only, or icon with label). The third option was created by Natemckn, but I didn't give credit because the point here is about the style, not the content (yet)

— Wind 22:21, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Tried this out again in both browsers and found it had fixed itself somewhat. The code should stay for a while until it safely settles into everyone's cache (I know nothing?). The only issue I encountered was the animations in IE. They are visibly slower as you say, but I'm thinking we turn them off by default for IE, as they aren't pleasant. Nevertheless, when all issues are ironed out I'll be in  Support of this. seb26 [talk] 04:26, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Animations are now always disabled in IE (except IE9 in which they behave normally) — Wind 07:43, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

 Support I quite like number 3, probably because I'm a sucker for fancy looking stuff. Works real good for me :D —Moussekateer·talk 01:57, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

 Number 3: It's visually appealing, convenient, and encourages exploration of the wiki. As long as the issue seb mentioned is/gets taken care of, I don't see why not. -The Neotank ( | Talk) 04:06, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

 Comment A few things (about #3):

• I'd vertical align the "Weapons" "Hats" etc headings to the top. When they get too tall it looks a tad confusing in the middle without a delimiter.
• This does not work in all my browsers and some older version test browsers, even after clearing the cache. A number of users on the IRC channel reported the same issue.
• While it is pretty and all-inclusive, where will this go? Putting this at the bottom/top of every article seems like a bit of overkill. The purpose of navigation templates is to have separate ones we can stack as needed. If there were a way to dynamically load them that'd be better.
• Putting all that content in one place just means the user will need to load that much more stuff for the initial page load even if they only look at one page. Having 100 thumbnails load on first pageview is not practical, the wiki gets enough traffic spikes as it is.
• One of my bigger issues with it is that it bottlenecks the weapon lookup process. With the existing weapon template, it's 2 dimensional: you can quickly search by class or by slot. Here, you're forced to look them up by class.

Just my several cents. It looks beautiful, to be sure, but I just think it needs a bit more of a clear purpose. MK 08:05, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

 3: The third option is awesome :) --Parseus (talk) 08:09, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

 Neutral: I stand neutral for the time being, sure it does look great and sure it is quite easy to navigate, but for now, there is no purpose for this colossal NAV. Wintergreen 00:44, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

 3: Numbah 3 is awesome! -- Swordz (talk | contribs) 16:59, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

• I have to go for the 3rd option. Real alien 20:58, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

 3 My eyes are bleeding with all the awesome-ness. =D  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 19:22, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

I have a pretty slow connection, and all those small images in #3 load really slowly. They don't seem needed, and kins of crowd the template Balladofwindfishes 19:32, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

TF2 on PS3, dead

Apparently EA just shut the servers down with no warning, so nobody can play at all. Should we note this and cull all PS3 mentions? – Smashman _(talk) 15:57, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Is there any sort of announcement anywhere? If so, I think we should mention it in the current events section of the main page and start removing the relevant info throughout the wiki. 'Tis a sad day Natemckn 16:03, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

No reason to do anything yet. I'm yet to find a verified source for this information. -- Pilk _(talk) 16:05, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

I think that's the point. EA have said nothing. I read it on Twitter. here's one. Although then again it does seem to be the only one. I may be jumping the gun. Can someone confirm? – Smashman _(talk) 18:47, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Nevermind, looks like I was jumping the gun and that guy on Twitter was just whining. The servers were down for the day. Cancel this all. – Smashman _(talk) 18:48, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Even though having said that, Category:PlayStation 3 wouldn't have much to delete anyway. --CruelCow ^(talk) 21:40, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

'Update History' vs. 'Previous Changes'

Which is better? I'm more in favour of 'Previous Changes' because it sounds a little better and is what's used on most pages. seb26 [talk] 01:28, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

The term "Previous Change" makes absolutely no sense since the reader is viewing the article which is the "Current Change" version and yet the "Current Change" version is listed as part of the list of "Previous Changes".

"Update History" would be the proper term to use, especially since that is the de facto term in the software world. Valve uses the term "Product Update" on all changes/patches. The only reason "Previous Changes" is used on all pages is because the editor who originally put those in the articles used that awkward term. Fixing pages to reflect better term now. -Object404 01:41, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm split on this. I think both terms make sense but there's not that much difference. We already use 'Previous changes' on pretty much every article, in all languages, so it'll be a ton of work for a minor change. —Moussekateer·talk 01:54, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Should the Australian Christmas items even have these subsections? Most of the rest of the articles don't. These notes were only placed in the Au Xmas articles to make viewers more prominently informed that the Australian Christmas items were now dropping & craftable -- that there was no need for players to panic, hoard Festive crates and buy Festive keys like crazy as they'd still be available after Australian Christmas. Personally I think it'd be interesting to see the update history of TF2 items, but maybe they should have their own pages, just like the separate "gameplay tips/tactics" articles for each of the weapons/items to keep the main articles looking more clean; it could look unwieldy if the change list grows for each item.

If we're going to be putting these subsections at all in the rest of the other articles, we might as well start with the proper term which is "Update History". It's not a "minor change" as "Previous Changes" looks extremely awkward. The main article the reader is viewing contains the latest changes. To list the latest change as part of "previous changes" is wrong from both a grammatical and a software standards perspective. -Object404 02:13, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

I like "Update History" more. Couldn't we just rig a bot to look for the string and change it, so we don't have to go through tons of pages and manually change them all? Balladofwindfishes 02:16, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

No biggie. I'd be happy to go through all the pages and manually fix them all in my spare time after work. Most of them need fixing anyway as it'd be more proper to list latest changes on top and oldest at the bottom in keeping with the rest of the internet and the software world. It's really aggravating my OCD :P -Object404 03:10, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

 NeutralI like both, depending on what will be chosen I'll conform, "Previous Changes" is good though, and it means no need of changing all the wiki. Tturbo 06:09, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

 Update history Makes more sense to me Stab ! 16:12, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Previous Changes makes perfect sense. It's a change that occurred previous to the current version. Even a change that changed the weapon from an old version to the current version is a previous change. Geddit? – Smashman _(talk) 16:48, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

I could see "Previous Changes" working better even though the most recent change would be listed there. A change is the act of moving from one state to another, yes? The current state of something had to have gotten that way by changing from a previous state. So the most recent change would still be a "Previous Change". Larkke 16:52, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Precisely my point. Glad you understood it. – Smashman _(talk) 16:55, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

 Update history No, Smashman, Larrke. That is the "latest change", not a "previous change". The latest change by definition cannot be a previous change because the term previous requires something subsequent. Since there are no changes after the latest change, the latest change cannot fall under "previous change". Please do not confuse the terms Previous and Change with each other. Summary: A Latest Change CANNOT fall under Previous Change by definition. If we're going to use the term "Previous Change", the last change done has to be separated from it. To clarify things, the last change applied in an update is current and cannot fall under previous. Makes sense? -Object404 04:18, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Shall we wrap this up guys? It seems the only argument against switching to "Update History" is the amount of work it would take, and votes are either neutral or in favor of switching. Since I'm okay with manually going through the pages myself, I'll start renaming the sections around late next week if there are no more objections? Happy New Year all! -Object404 02:55, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Hi guys. It just takes a few seconds to make the fix to "Update History" when I'm reading a page. Since there aren't really any complaints anymore, I'll just make the fixes when I happen to be on pages that haven't been updated yet. Cheerios -Object404 16:45, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Should weapons unlocked by achievements have their required number on their individual page?

At the moment, each individual weapon page lists details about the weapons, but not how many achievements it takes to unlock them. Is it worth adding in, as at the moment you can only find out how many achievements are needed to unlock a weapon by looking at the individual class achievement pages.

So say, on the Sandmans individual page, we state that it can be unlocked by completing 16 Scout achievements, rather than having to go to the Scouts achievement list page and looking at the milestones. (Sorry about not signing. Havn't got the hang of this yet :P) --No-oneSpecial 14:43, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

 Support The fact that a weapon will be unlocked after x number of achievements should be on the weapon page, imho. Natemckn 14:32, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

 Support: Not a bad idea, and one we could likely put on the infobox. Please remember to sign your comments on talk pages with ~~~~. – Smashman _(talk) 14:38, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

 Comment: I was thinking it'd be more appropriate if the associated milestone is mentioned in the "relative achievements" section.--Kid Of The Century 14:44, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

 Comment: I like this. Surprised we don't already have this. – Smashman _(talk) 16:50, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

 This Scout_achievements#Milestones --CruelCow ^(talk) 02:14, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

 Comment: I think he was talking about this section on a weapons individual page Sandman#Related_Achievements -- No-one Special (talk | contribs) 02:45, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

So did I, but I admit the link was confusing ;) --CruelCow ^(talk) 02:50, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

 Support I can see how this would be useful for newer players. How about making the infobox say "Unlock (16)"? — NVis (talk) 14:46, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Why didn't we do this from the start? I fully support Balladofwindfishes 02:08, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

 Agree: Why do we not have this already? -- Netshroud (talk | contribs) 02:24, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

 Support Very useful info to have on individual weapon pages. -Object404 04:19, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

 Support I think that is a good idea. It will definitely be very helpfull for all the newcomers. -- Pumpkin in a cap (talk | contribs) 18:30, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

 Support: Sounds like a good idea. Surprised this hasn't been done yet. :) NihonTiger 02:59, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Pages for Updates before the Engineer Update

I think we should create pages for the updates before the Engineer Update. We have created nav boxes for them and we should have pages too like the Engie Update, Mann-Conomy Updaate, Scream Fortress and Australian Christmas Updates. Mardamien24 17:10, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

We already have them. o-o -- Swordz (talk | contribs) 17:14, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

I think he/she means the difference between A Heavy Update and the Engineer Update. The Engineer update lists the pre-update information, on top of some back stories and preview images. The article isn't just patch notes, either, it explains the new additions and weapons. Balladofwindfishes 13:49, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

 Support Would suit the classiness of the rest of the wiki :) Be glad to help out on this if it falls through -- No-oneSpecial (talk | contribs) 16:33, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

 Support It will definitely make the Patches' Major updates section much less messy regarding links.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 18:14, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

About The Milestone Unlocks for Weapons

We want to get appropriate formatting for the milestone unlocks right? but we don't want it to just blend in with the rest of the achievements. so i propose for the formatting that we do this (see here).... this is the best i could do im sure most others can do better its more of a suggestion. - Lexar - talk 04:31, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I like the milestone attribute but the image is too big, and probably not needed. It could just say Milestone #. —Moussekateer·talk 04:43, 2 January 2011 (UTC)