Team Fortress Wiki talk:Weapon Demonstration

Weapons that need to be done

Cloak and Dagger

I've started out with a simplistic version of this. I show it in the loadout, then turn it on in First person. After waiting a few seconds to demonstrate the cloak doesn't drain when standing still, I walk around in a circle to show that it drains by moving. I walk over an ammopack both cloaked and uncloaked to demonstrate that picking up ammo doesn't recharge it. I walk around uncloaked a bit to show it recharges when moving uncloaked. Finally, I walk into an enemy medic to show that it will show an outline if you walk into an enemy. How's that? — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dr. Huxley (talk) • (contribs)

Take a look at the Invisibility Watch demo for things to show too. You need to show things like the Dispenser not recharging it, that it hides teleporter trails, etc. Also, make sure to demonstrate:

• Drain speed is proportional to walking speed (move while crouching, move while jumping, etc)
• When drained, the cloak does NOT auto-uncloak like the other watches, but stays in the "outline" mode (walk around cloaked until out of it, then keep running)
• Has less cloak than the regular invisibility watch (Many people don't know this one for some reason); do a split-screen walking from one end of the room to the other (and back, if needed), with one side C&D and the other using the IW. Show that you can run farther in one charge with the IW, but you can still keep walking in "outline" mode with the C&D.

— Wind 04:31, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Righto, I'll redo that and keep that in mind. I don't see the need to almost completely redo the original Invis. Watch video though, but if that's what you mean, I'll do it. Dr. Huxley 04:55, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Before you do that, please post the video you made so far, just to check if it meets the technical requirements. This is just a check, because if it doesn't, then both your and my time will go to waste D: — Wind 05:07, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I think it should have triple splitscreen showing the draining amount when youre falling/jumping, running and crouch-walking. --SandeProElite 18:57, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Here's my first draft at this video. I thought it might be good to 'throw everything in' so to speak, to make it easier to see which parts to cut; it's intentionally long. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDWesVeLOYY i-ghost 23:03, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

The main aspect of the C&D is movement-dependent cloak drain/regen, and I feel that this video doesn't show that obviously enough. It is demonstrated at the beginning but quickly and without transition between "states". Take your time, wait at least 1 seconds before (and after, if it applies) changing direction/crouching/standing up, etc. Also, it needs to demonstrate that it regenerates while uncloaked+moving.

As for what should be cut, I think the teleporter destruction part can be left out, as well as the cloak+disguise demo from 1:20 to 1:50. Also a pretty important thing is to show the enemy's vision of the cloak; for the regular IW, it was fine to use the engineer's voice commands to indicate vision/not-vision, but here it is not because the spy can be either invisible, visible, or semi-visible, but what is shown here is from a BLU perspective, so we see the spy all the time. So what I'd suggest to do is to respawn the Engineer mid-demo (while you're not looking in his direction) and record things from his POV; then use that as the central video during the last part instead of a third person view. Yes, this requires him to be a human player or to use a SourceTV demo, but I believe it's worth it :3 Also, since it's a long demo, feel free to do it in multiple parts joined together with fades, too. It's frustrating it is when you do everything right except one small little thing at the end of the take... Doing it in multiple parts helps — Wind 00:54, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

I believe that two things are missing from your video.

The C&D decloaks slower than the normal invis watch, and it also makes more noise. Smurfton 18:52, 12 October 2011 (PDT)

I'm pretty sure you're talking about the Dead Ringer. ^^ — Zhnigo 12:05, 13 December 2011 (PST)

Dead Ringer

Hello, guys! Now I'm working on Dead Ringer demonstration, and I have some questions about it:

• what kind of the possibilities of Dead Ringer must be shown
• there must be only 1'st person view or 1'st and 3'rd?

Well, thats all about what I want to ask you Gringo perm 17:35, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Alright:

• First, that it doesn't make you invisible when you activate it
• Can only be activated at full charge
• Activates on hit
• Doesn't remove teleporter trails (I think...)
• Has "Super cloak" (doesn't show outline when bumping against enemies)
• Makes loud sound on uncloak
• Can be recharged by ammo pack and dispensers while cloaked but extra cloak time is not "Super cloak"
• Disguising as an enemy makes you drop the spy corpse on trigger, while disguising as an ally makes you drop that class's corpse on death
• Can be self-triggered by fall-damage
• Can be used to extinguish fire

That's all I can think of~ And yes, there will probably have to be third-person views (and views from the enemy side, in order to show the corpse drop for example). This is a tough demo that I don't think can be pulled off using bots alone — Wind 18:55, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I would also suggest that having really low HP (i.e. 1 or 2 HP) will not bail you out from heavy-hitting weapons, even with the Dead Ringer out. Maybe make an example of the Decloaking sound, noting that it's much mroe louder than the Invis Watch or Cloak & Dagger. Lancer anti-tank Rocket 11:00, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

hey guys i made the dead ringer movie if you find any mistakes pm me. if it's good tell me and i'll upload it. hope you'll like it :) Link. —StrongTube1 13:39, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

First, please upload it to YouTube as unlisted like the submission guidelines say~

Second, this video has quite a lot of problems, some technical and some content-wise. I'll only list the technical ones first so that you focus on these first, because no video can be accepted if they don't fit those:

• Video is letterboxed (has black bars on top and bottom)
• Video looks scaled up (as if it were recorded at a lower resolution and enlarged)
• Framerate is a bit sluggish sometimes, especially when a new model is loaded (getting killed, or taking out the dead ringer)
• There is "www.fraps.com" on top of all the video
• Knife crit animation not playing (though you shouldn't need to backstab anything in this video since it's demonstrating the watch, not the knife)

— Wind 21:47, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, here's my take on the Dead Ringer. Download here. --Akuago220, The Jungle Expeditioner 07:10, 19 September 2011 (PDT)

Pretty damn good :3 But as you can guess, it ain't perfect yet~

• Framerate is low during the first few seconds. I'm guessing it's Fraps, it just starts recording stutter-y and then it gets better. Just wait a few seconds before starting your actual run-through
• I think that's a custom crosshair color... Seems a bit darker than the default one. I may be wrong though
• Turn on critical hits for this demo (tf_weapon_criticals 1) so that the backstab animation plays and the Knife viewmodel animation works (and cross your fingers that the bots aren't going to get crits during recording)
• Something like the clip at 1:39 should be part of the first clip, too. Maybe get someone to be the Soldier so that you can have his POV. It's important the the viewer knows what the Dead ringer looks like to both parties early on, with all three disguise possibilities (no disguise, enemy disguise, friendly disguise). So, summary of the first clip: Get a human to be the soldier and recording. Get him to shoot at you with the dead ringer active but no disguise. Stare at your corpse, then back at him, let cloak run out. Wait for cloak to recharge completely, disguise as RED, re-activate the dead ringer. Soldier shoots again, perhaps this time he can also shoot a second time like the current clip, to show that rockets are still blocked and that you take (reduced) damage. While you're invisible, also try to pick up your fallen disguise weapon to get a boost. Uncloak when cloak depletes. Then, wait for full recharge again, disguise as BLU, activate dead ringer. Soldier shoots again (and reloads), and this time try to uncloak when the cloak meter is not fully depleted (to show that you can). Then move on with the Pyro and the Medic, like the current clip does quite well.
• On every dead ringer activation, make sure to always take a moment to stare at your corpse, like you did at 1:12
• This is just a minor aesthetic remark, but at 1:17, it's preferable if you switch in one shot (use the number keys) instead of scrolling through weapons
• 2:27 is hilarious and perfect
• Leave the teleporters at level 1 so that they emit less light. They're kind of obnoxiously bright at they are, which I'm guessing the map is to blame here as well
• The same way the non-blink-ness of the cloak is demonstrated at 2:50, the blinkiness of the cloak should also be demonstrated when it's extended by dispensers or ammo packs. This could be merged with the last clip with the dispensers and teleporters. If it is merged, then might as well merge the non-blinkiness as well. You can do this in a single dead ringering, too: get shot at, poke him a bit to show it doesn't blink, let the cloak almost run out, run to the dispenser, get recharged a nice bit (at least 50%), then go back to the engineer and show that now it does blink.
• Audio glitch at 4:17 (dead ringer noise is doubled)

That should be all~ The structure is nice, usage of the new map is nice, content is there. Good luck :3 — Wind 22:51, 19 September 2011 (PDT)

I see. Well here are two things I need to refute:

• I've always had that crosshair color for all of my demonstrations, even the one for the Cow Mangler, yet you accepted that one just fine.
• Getting my friend to send me a 300+ MB clip will deem too time-wasting on both of our parts. Maybe for the second clip, I can demonstrated all 3 different POV segments you suggested, with a Scout still to show the corpses in one piece rather than gibbed; the point of the first clip was just to show how the DR works, how it extinguishes fire, and what kind of ammo can replenish it.

That is all. I'll get back to it later today. --Akuago220, The Jungle Expeditioner 07:56, 20 September 2011 (PDT)

Well I'm probably wrong for the crosshair then~ You could have your friend send you a demo file instead of a recording, too. It'll be much smaller, and no loss of quality due to re-encoding it — Wind 20:44, 20 September 2011 (PDT)

I made a Dead Ringer Demonstration myself. Here is the link. I realize that the training video music is not in the video, but I can fix that if somebody tells me how to put it in. It's a mystery to me how I'm supposed to get in to the file it's in. Spam90675 13:50, 29 October 2011 (PDT)

The video is private, I cannot see it — Wind 14:02, 29 October 2011 (PDT)

Oops, here's a retry. Link Spam90675 14:13, 29 October 2011 (PDT)

Still private ._.; Try accessing it after logging out — Wind 14:16, 29 October 2011 (PDT)

One more try. Link Spam90675 14:19, 29 October 2011 (PDT)

Nice try, but quite lacking >:

• Video is not HD. Must be at least 720p
• Criticals are off. If you are going to backstab people, you need to turn them on after running weaponref.cfg, so that the backstab animation plays correctly
• HudDamageAccount.res is not installed
• The Dead Ringer has no taunt, so don't taunt
• Don't do unnecessary movement (crouching/jumping/weapon switching) when there is no reason to do so
• Have the mouse cursor shown in the backpack screen
• I highly recommend following Akuago's video above. It shows a lot more information

Good luck :3 — Wind 14:34, 29 October 2011 (PDT)

Alright, I'll make sure to try and fix everything. What should I do between the time it takes for the Ringer to refill? And how woudl I put an Ammo box in the map? Spam90675 14:38, 29 October 2011 (PDT)

Using the ent_create command. Read the project page, it has all the commands you need. But right now, it'd be better if you could just record a 10-seconds-ish clip of pretty much anything, just to make sure that you can record in HD and with the right graphics settings, so that all your work doesn't go to waste if you can't :3 After that, folow Akuago's video (taking into consideration all the points I wrote about it just above) and it should be good — Wind 14:54, 29 October 2011 (PDT)

I have two minor problems: The mouse cursor won't show up normally, so I need to know what to do to make it show up. There is nothing ont he page that describes how to have it appear or the fact that it has to be there. The other thing is that WeGame won't upload in any higher resolution unless I pay for the membership. I can upload it to Youtube in 720, so that isn't a problem. I just need to know if the resolution it's at right now is okay. Spam90675 15:51, 29 October 2011 (PDT)

The resolution you uploaded at is (something)x360. The resolution you must upload at (and record at, obviously) is any 16:9 resolution that has at least 720 vertical lines. I cannot know if the resolution you are recording at is okay, because all I can see is what youtube says.

I don't know how to show the mouse cursor in WeGame, as no one really uses that because of the usually horrible quality it has... It's not written on the page that the cursor has to be there, but it does mention mouse movement, so that kind of implies it. I'll edit and make that more explicit — Wind 16:22, 29 October 2011 (PDT)

Thank you for informing me about all this, I am currently trying out everything to make the video better, and now the only problem I have is the Cursor, which is minor at best. I'll probably republish the video when I finish improving it. Also, if anybody has any information on how to get the cursor to show up in the meantime, it'd be great. Spam90675 16:27, 29 October 2011 (PDT)

It's ok if you can't, it's not a huge deal — Wind 16:42, 29 October 2011 (PDT)

Well, I finished a better version of the video, that covers the following in order:

• Can't be activated unless damage is done
• When Damage is done, cloak is created
• Corpse is created when cloak is triggered
• Can sustain massive damage while cloaked
• Cloak length
• When disguised as a Friendly, Corpse will be of the Class disguised as
• Cloak can be filled while being used
• When at low health, still possible to be killed
• Can sustain massive damage (again)
• Can not attack when out

The video is still being processed. Here is a link to the download. I'll try and fix the cursor problem if and when I found out how, otherwise, I think I did pretty good, aside from the stall in-between disguising as a Teammate and being hit by flames. Also, I would like to Reserve making this video, so I don't have to worry about someone else making a better version if I have to fix mine. Spam90675 17:39, 29 October 2011 (PDT)

Oh, look, the video finally finished uploading. Link. I realize that it is still at 360p, but I am going to fix that as soon as possible. Spam90675 18:04, 29 October 2011 (PDT)

This is better in terms of coverage, could be better in terms of rhythm (take it slow~ Look at other weapon demonstration to get an idea of how slow you should be while demonstrating); but right now I'd like you to focus on the video quality only. The reason is that since the final video should be HD, there is no need to make a big effort improving on the existing video until quality is up to par :3 So just make a random clip (~10 seconds) with the required quality before doing anything else — Wind 18:33, 29 October 2011 (PDT)

Well, I fixed the problem with Quality, earlier it wasn't working with me, but now the video is in 720p. Link. All I need to do now in terms of major problems is figure out how to get the TF2 Instruction Mp3s and put them into the video. Is there possibly someone who has a link to download the first one? Spam90675 18:45, 29 October 2011 (PDT)

This is not real 720p :( It looks very blurry compared to real 720p. Look at another weapon demonstration in 720p and compare to your video and you will notice that this one is much clearer. This can be caused by one or both of the following:

• Your rendering settings are very low in terms of quality or bitrate, causing the video to have the required resolution but sub-par quality
• Your footage is not 720p in the first place, but is being stretched up to 720p

— Wind 19:57, 29 October 2011 (PDT)

As I said before, WeGame requires you to pay for a membership to use the best Definition. Unless someone either has a way to get it to it's best resolution or lend me the money, that's as best as it's going to get. Spam90675 20:11, 29 October 2011 (PDT)

I thought that was for uploading only... Well, that's some poor marketing decision they made then. Guess you gotta go with something else~ — Wind 20:55, 29 October 2011 (PDT)

Well, if you watch the video in 720p, it's much less blurry. Otherwise, I'm not sure how to get it to work well. How do you get your Demo videos so polished? Do you use a certain capture device?

Most people here use Fraps, as mentioned on the project page. Otherwise, you can use TF2's built-in Source Recorder. And yes, I was comparing both videos' 720p versions, of course — Wind 21:14, 29 October 2011 (PDT)

Well then, I have two questions: 1. Do you actually need a Full version of Fraps that is paid for? If so, then you can only make videos if you can afford the Movie capture upgrades. The second question is: is it possible to explain that you can use the Source filmmaker and how to use it on the Project page? Meanwhile, seeing as nobody else has followed up on this, I might as well put the "Reserved by *me*" thingy up there. I don't plan on giving this up until I get the job done. Spam90675 20:11, 29 October 2011 (PDT)

You do have to use the full version of Fraps, because the non-full one is limited to 30 seconds and puts a "www.fraps.com" label at the top of the video. You cannot use Source Filmmaker, as it is not included in TF2 anymore. You can use Source Recorder however; there's a full explanation here — Wind 21:25, 29 October 2011 (PDT)

It's not done yet? Mind if I take a turn at it? Consider it my gift for staying at the wiki for one year. :3 — Zhnigo 12:18, 13 December 2011 (PST)

Reservations are only a suggestion — Wind 20:49, 14 December 2011 (PST)

Is demonstrating the fall damage really necessary? I mean we already know it feigns death on taking damage, so I don't think it's needed... AbeX300 15:36, 3 February 2012 (PST)

It is necessary to show that the damage doesn't have to come from the enemy's fire; it can come from yourself. — Wind 15:26, 5 February 2012 (PST)

This demonstration seems to be a bit slow in the making. I'd love to put my work into it. If I were to record some demos (or all of the appropriate parts) and send them to someone, could someone else render them? I have a mac, and certain key characteristics (fade in, fade out, sound overlay, exporting .dem files) may prove tricky or expensive. I would still love to help, so if I were to get someone else to render and compile the videos, that would be great. I also feel like the dead ringer buisness should be shown in first and third person simultaneously, via split-screen. ≥My two cents≤ 04:30, 17 February 2012 (PST)

Need to be redone

Bazaar Bargain

 Only one head is lost on misses and bodyshots

Apparently valve merely made public the changes to this back in october, so this doesn't need to be redone. — Armisael (T | C) 09:33, 12 January 2012 (PST)

I don't think so, I think only do in backpack view and combine it to old videobecause description was change. Hinaomi 00:27, 13 January 2012 (PST)

Black Box

 Done but need to redone (Need pyro view that can get heal when hit enemy with reflect Black Box's rocket) I think it should show that the Pyro does get the +15 health bonus. Currently you can see the tiny health crosses over the Pyro, but a short demonstration from the Pyro's view would be better imho. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by LeGenD`RaGe (talk) • (contribs)

Not a very critical change but OK — Wind 20:50, 8 October 2011 (PDT)

To point out--this is tricky, since it requires two players to do the recording. ≥My two cents≤ 04:32, 17 February 2012 (PST)

Saxxy

 New taunts  Not reserved by Wind but must have video quality that is on par with or better than the current Saxxy demonstration. This is a weapon awarded for making good videos, so it has to be good too — Wind 11:24, 28 January 2012 (PST)

Not only new taunt. Kill line is change for some class. Hinaomi 06:35, 23 October 2011 (PDT)

Scottish Resistance

 Done but needs to be redone (Custom crosshair)

mah version here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXZsnRKAgUc&feature=youtu.be Karmacharger 12.24 , 5 February 2012 (PST)

Should not have reloaded at 0:47 (only at the end of the clip). For the clip to show that you can explode enemy stickybombs, make sure that you don't destroy them all in one shot (to show that it destroys stickybombs only in a certain area). Also, for the jumping part, Sticky Jumper shows that it is possible to jump all the way across with only one sticky bomb. Can this be done with the Scottish Resistance? If yes, then you should do it~ — Wind 15:26, 5 February 2012 (PST)

hey wind.... i don't think i can making videos easily now because i had a problem with fraps so this won't work at my pc idk why :/ , anything else i can use with recording? Karmacharger 04.05 , 2-9-2012 (PST)

I'll save wind the ignominy of promoting his own software and say that SrcDemo2 is what all the cool kids use. — Armisael (T | C) 11:31, 9 February 2012 (PST)

What Armisael said certain'y wouldn't hurt (in fact it would help), but I highly recommend doing demos with Source Recorder exclusively first, as it will be easier (less things to learn at once) — Wind 15:56, 9 February 2012 (PST)

i used it before , when i trying to save my demo as avi file it said " AVI is no longer supported! Make sure QuickTime is installed and use "h264" - if you install QuickTime, you will need to reboot before using startmovie. " these are red text. i already installed quicktime and h264 then reboot and try again startmovie test avi and this the same error i will get :( if save with Startmovie test raw it work for me , is this the only way i can save? Karmacharger 12.44 , 2-10-2012 (PST)

Yes. SrcDemo2 basically converts those .tga (raw) frames as they get saved, that's how it can convert the output to .png frames — Wind 20:56, 9 February 2012 (PST)

my video is making now and sorry for taking too long hope you won't care. Karmacharger 02.23 , 20-2-2012 (PST)

There's no rush~ — Wind 12:37, 20 February 2012 (PST)

Your Eternal Reward

 Doesn't show backstab angle/Corpse doesn't dissapear on taunt kill/And maybe many more mistake.. Hinaomi 01:29, 16 February 2012 (PST)

Cosmetics

The Tin Soldier

 Problem with the sound

The sound is out of synch when doing the taunt(But only while taunting).I think the video needs to be redone,or atleast edit the audio to make it synch with the video

Proposals

Hat Demonstration: Saxton Hale Mask

Why can't anyone put up a video about the saxton hale mask? I think that since it has an effect, it should be demonstrated... — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tsvetoslav (talk) • (contribs) 12:13, 22 November 2011 (PST)

 Support Yes, there should be one imo. —Rocket Ship BBQ(•) 13:11, 22 November 2011 (PST)

I agree that this should get a quite short demonstration video because I didn't know that the Saxton mask had the ability to stop boos from ghosts and the Horseless Headless Horseman and this wiki's job is to spread the information on the game(and trust me videos help). --CaptainSneaky 12:41, 27 November 2011 (PST)

 Nope.avi I think no. Because if we do, unusal hat, jigglebone hat and effect hat (e.g. Mining light have light bright when in the dark room, earbud has note effect etc.) must do demonstration too. And I think hats don't have anything interest, have only cosmetics. Hinaomi 15:02, 22 November 2011 (PST)

That hat, and the Horseless Headless Horsemann's Head, renders players immune to the stun of the ghost.—Rocket Ship BBQ(•) 15:05, 22 November 2011 (PST)

Unusuals don't change any real game play only the effects of the hat (same goes for earbuds). Lastly a moving piece of the hat or the entire hat moving doesn't make a huge difference in gameplay. --CaptainSneaky 12:41, 27 November 2011 (PST)

Festive Weapons

Simple question, do you guys think they're required? Woodledoodledoodle 12:38, 21 December 2011 (PST)

I think the first person perspective picture is enough — Wind 12:40, 21 December 2011 (PST)

i Think That Would be awesome , When Demonstration Festive Weapons. Karmacharger 01:09 , 8 January 2012 (PST)

I think this demonstration is not necessary. Because these have same status as class stock weapons, only have festive light blub on it.Hinaomi 22:21, 7 January 2012 (PST)

Critical Hits/Mini-crits

Just a quick question: Why aren't the critical( and mini-crits) hits shown? It makes no sense. At least show them on a Medic( the proportionality of damage to distance will be clear by killing a Pyro and a Soldier ). Of course, mini-crits will be shown first, the Medic will be capable of surviving both crits and mini-crits for most weapons. If the weapon doesn't have them, just kill the medic in a usual way. --Hawk18727 06:17, 30 December 2011 (PST)

It's doesn't nessary and if we do, about 157 demonstrations those need to redone with this reason. Do you think it's easy to do? Hinaomi 08:03, 30 December 2011 (PST)

Of course, i don't ask to redo this, just want to know the reason for that. --Hawk18727 11:01, 30 December 2011 (PST)

See Archive 20 for this. In short: It should have been demonstrated, it wasn't. The decision was a mistake, but it's too late to correct it now without a huge effort investment which isn't worth it right now >: It's more important for Melee weapons, hence the possibility of reopening melee weapons for crits. But first, it's more important that all weapons at least have a demonstration video, rather than spending time going over all already-demonstrated weapons and add a minor detail to the videos. — Wind 14:47, 30 December 2011 (PST)

Thanks for the reply. --Hawk18727 06:24, 31 December 2011 (PST)

Damage Comparison

It would be enormously helpful to include a split-screen comparing a weapon with changed damage attributes (Back Scratcher, L'Etranger) to their vanilla counterparts (Fire Axe, Revolver). However I realize this will involve a major time investment. --Upgrade 20:24, 16 February 2012 (PST)

This has already been asked before >: Not everything needs to be a split-screen comparison, especially something that is easy to compare thanks to on-screen damage numbers in all videos. Given that, either a damage comparison would have to be in its own clip (which would be redundant because damage is already demonstrated in the main clip), or merged with the first clip itself and so have a whole split-screen first clip, which I think would look constrained and not give the weapon the screen space it deserves for its own demonstration. — Wind 13:21, 17 February 2012 (PST)

Ok, I went through the archives trying to find specific topics addressing this, but I've only found few scattered references. However, they all presuppose that the viewer would readily remember the vanilla loadout damage amount.(That or put both videos up in new windows and to a split-time comparison analysis.) Either way, this requires extra input from the viewer. Anyway, going through the archives hit upon another thread regarding weapons and their attributes as they changed over time. Should earlier versions of weapons and demonstrations be preserved as archival material?--Upgrade 14:05, 18 February 2012 (PST)

The history of weapon changes is already kept in the "Update history" section of all articles, adding weapon demonstrations there as well would probably make it too heavy over time (and not very helpful, since a lot of the content would be redundant with the current demonstration) — Wind 15:50, 18 February 2012 (PST)