Team Fortress Wiki talk:Weapon Demonstration/Archive 30

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Beggar's Bazooka

I'll take the Bazooka video, make sure to demonstrate all varieties of charged fire, rocket jump, taunt, misfire.

Anybody know a good video editor? Mine isn't that great. Gilgamesh 11:55, 5 July 2012 (EST)

Use Sony Vegas Pro 9 The Greatest Video Editor in my option , try it out. Karmacharger 01:50 , 6 July 2012 (PDT)

Thanks, will try it! Gilgamesh 11:55, 5 July 2012 (EST)

No Problem , Hope you can make a great demonstration also try use srcdemo2. Karmacharger 01:23 , 7/7/2012 (PDT)

Preliminary version of video - a bit rusty at editing, having trouble with fade. Also, need to find music clip used in videos.

Link

I know there's a slight stutter in the video, and will need to repair. If I need more precise jumps, also possible, but I would prefer to leave the jumps segment the way it is. I used single shots for the pyro, doubles for the soldier, triple for the medic. This, I think, showed off the projectile deviation, as well as the damage falloff.

Let me know what else I need to fix; if there's someone who can do a final polishing edit on this, I'd really appreciate it!

Gilgamesh 19:08, 6 July 2012 (EST)

I'd take a crack at this, but you're doing it. :( — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Boynedmaster (talk) • (contribs)

Quality is very bad. See below for some music to use. The quality is too low. The fps is too low. And the contrast seems high, but that might be my monitor. Show overloading in first clip, probably. E.g: Hit pyro (one rocket) Hit pyro (2 more rockets). Load 3 for soldier. Overload 4 for medic, and kill. The last rocket on the target is fine.

Audio desync at 1:02. Feel free to use health packs for that segment, just be clear that you're using them. Not clear what is happening in last clip. Forgot to show "no dispenser reload". Gib the dispenser and pick up its gibs to show normal reload. Darkid (|) 18:43, 6 July 2012 (PDT)

i uploaded the longer version of these background musics There you go. Karmacharger 01:23 , 7/7/2012 (PDT)

What the above said; also it's missing fades between clips (instead of hard cuts), and please start clips looking horizontally (not at your feet), otherwise it's kind of hard to follow. The way things are demonstrated is quite good though, and I do agree that you need another clip to show the splash damage caused by the overloading. You also need to show that you can't take ammo from Dispensers, dropped weapons, or supply cabinets (use any map with a supply cabinet).

May also want to show the additional projectile deviation but this is sort of hard to show. I think it is already well-demonstrated in the video by looking at where the rocket that was meant for the wooden target went, but if you were to redo the clip then maybe you wouldn't have had such a large deviation. So if you do redo that first clip, make sure that you get a large deviation on that shot — Wind 19:16, 6 July 2012 (PDT)

Figured out source of bad quality; hopefully fixed. I eliminated the locked framerate and upped the graphics settings. Almost done with next version of video; however, having trouble spawning dispenser. What is the command for this? Gilgamesh 10:08, 7 July 2012 (EST)

There's no command for this, you have to spawn an engineer bot and have him build the dispenser — Wind 10:16, 7 July 2012 (PDT)

I have done the first entry of the video, or in your case, demonstration: Clickie Link

Remember: It's first time for me making a demonstration video.

iDromlexer 14:05, 8 July 2012 (PDT)

Alright, here goes~

• Nonstandard HUD, elements in different positions
• Brightness is very different from most demonstrations. Watch other existing demonstrations and you'll notice that they are much less bright than your video is. Look at the soldier's palm when he is reloading, it's almost pure yellow under some angles (like when firing at the soldier). Perhaps you modified your gamma settings or are using an encoder which flattens the colorspace of the video?
• Relative volume is off (game volume is very quiet compared to music volume)
• Music is looping awkwardly (use continuous loops)
• Missing the "schwomp" sound of loading a rocket into the bazooka (?)
• Wooden target should be the last thing fired at
• Need to fire at the Medic normally; the point of having 3 enemies is to show damage drop-off as a function of target distance. Removing the Medic from this removes a data point. The overloading explosion needs to be demonstrated in another clip
• Like all rocket launchers, need to show rocket jumping, rocket reflection, etc.

That should be it~ Please focus on fixing the technical problems first (as opposed to the content problems) and submit a revised version of that, just to see if it can be recorded alright. Thanks~ — Wind 14:32, 8 July 2012 (PDT)

Here's the new verison

I also found out that I forgot to adjust the dB-volume in Vegas Pro 11. So, check if the video and clips are okay or not. So in case I can fix the sound if it's approved. iDromlexer 05:07, 9 July 2012 (PDT)

That first clip was perfect. However, the others weren't. For dispensers, lose the ammo off-screen and then walk up to the dispenser. Make the dispenser level 1 or level 3, don't have it partially upgraded. Be sure to hide the engineer somewhere. No need to show what the stock does. Be sure to show that ammo packs still grant ammo. For the rocket jumping technique, see the basics as outlined in the Rocket Launcher video--again, no need for comparison. Be sure that you clear out the level, (and restore your health) before you jump. It would be sufficient to show 1-rocket jumping, 3-rocket jumping (two will fire while in air), and height. Feel free to stick health packs in the map where you think you may get injured. Darkid (|) 06:06, 9 July 2012 (PDT)

Thanks for helping with this. I was having trouble with the bot scripting. I have a video - however, I think yours is better. Guess I'll practice with the video editor for awhile before attempting this again. Thanks! Gilgamesh 9:16, 9 July 2012 (EST)

Maybe, for me. It's your turn to try out since I want to take a nap and have to go on a vacation tomorrow. Good luck practicing your video editor. :) iDromlexer 06:55, 9 July 2012 (PDT)

Better but not perfect~

• Loadout screen has transparent tooltip. This happens when you try opening your backpack ater changing the game's resolution after you launched the game. Don't change the resolution (have it already be the good resolution when it starts) to fix this.
• The "clip ending" sound can still be heard at 0:37 and at 1:13 (faintly, after the rocket loading sounds)
• Still missing fades between clips
• No need to show that the dispenser refills rocket launcher rocket. I think the viewer knows that already
• No need to show rocket jumping with the regular rocket launcher either
• Rocket jumping should be demonstrated a lot slower and it more detail. Look at the demonstrations of Rocket Launcher or Rocket Jumper, etc. They start slow, with a transition time from the previous clip, they have the soldier looking horizontally (not at the ground), not in a corner, and they just jump around. No really quick trick jumps necessary, just some relaxed rocket jumping is enough. This weapon is a bit of an exception in that you can rocket jump harder with multiple rockets, so maybe you should do multiple clips (one with regular demonstration with always one rocket, another with two rockets, another with three, and it's okay if you self-destroy really fast.)

Thanks~ — Wind 20:35, 9 July 2012 (PDT)

Thanks to Idromlexer's good process design, I've got another video. Better quality, better process. However, my YouTube account is in Google-induced limbo (they lost my password), so it may take me awhile to upload. I've got the video, though!

UPDATE: Got it. Here's the link. MAKE SURE TO SET QUALITY TO 1080p; otherwise, it'll look just as bad as the first version: http://youtu.be/80OCCLrNKPE

Gilgamesh 16:14, 10 July 2012 (EST)

Getting there~

• You are using the split-screen HUD for non-split-screen clips. This is especially bad in the last clip where it overlaps with the payload HUD elements
• Rocket jumping pacing is good, but you can go a lot higher than in the two/three rockets clips. It seems weird to rocket jump lower when using more rockets
• Don't forget to reload the shotgun in the Dispenser clip
• Make fades slightly shorter (half a second is long enough), and add extra transition time before and after each fade. Watch other demonstrations to get a feeling for this; you'll notice that there's always a 1.5~3 seconds period of waiting, then a short fade, then another period of waiting, and then the other clip starts. This makes it easyer for the viewer to know what is happening; it may seem clear to the person who made the video, but for people who have never seen the video before, things like the transition at 1:56-1:58 is too much change to take in in so little time: new map, new cart silhouettes, new clock at the top, new paylod HUD elements, and the soldier already in the process of loading the weapon; the viewer wouldn't know what to focus on, and before they figure it out, the clip is over.

Hope this helps~ — Wind 18:34, 10 July 2012 (PDT)

New video! No split HUD, shotgun reloaded, more transition time, changed map to 2fort to allow for higher rocket jumps - in last video, warehouse ceiling capped this. Hope this one is better! REMEMBER: SET TO 1080p!

Link: http://youtu.be/u1ogmbvVYEU Gilgamesh 16:16, 11 July 2012 (EST)

Few things:

• I don't know if it counts, but your loadout is in loadout slot C. It might be a good idea to change that to A.
• When Wind said longer transitions, he didn't mean make the transitions longer. He meant, right before and after switching clips, stay still for a little while so what just happened and what is happening (respectively) have the chance to sink in for the viewer. Conversely, Wind suggested to make the fades shorter.
• On the rocket jumping clip, start at full health for every clip. You start out with 133 on the third clip.
• I don't know if it's just me, but it doesn't seem like you're going a lot higher when using more rockets for rocket jumping.
• The Dispenser infobox says "Dispenser built by Friendly."
• On the first shotgun clip, perhaps you don't need to, but I would start out with a full clip.
• The music at the end sounds like it got cut off or was transitioned poorly.

Good effort! Mr. Vinderack, not as sober as you...thin..yah... 13:56, 11 July 2012 (PDT)

Why did you rocket jump on 2fort? :( (@Mr. Vinderack: It's normal not to jump much higher with 2 or 3 rockets since the second/third rocket hit the ground when you're already away from it). I just said that you can jump a lot higher than what was shown in the previous video, because i nthe previous video the rocket jump was not high for the 2/3 rockets clips, and that this was counterintuitive; it should at least be as high as the first clip with 1 rocket. That 1-rocket clip (on tr_target_weaponref_hdr) was all good though >: Just do the same thing but with 2 and with 3 rockets.

Transition periods are better, but indeed, shorten the fades a little bit like Mr. Vinderack said. Starting at full health and ammo is also a good thing (that includes the Shotgun ammo clip where you started with 1 shot left and 19 rockets).

All the other clips are good~ So, re-redo rocket jumping, shorter fades, and starting with full ammo/HP each time. That should be it~ — Wind 18:54, 11 July 2012 (PDT)

Will do. Working on it now, should be up before noon. - Gilgamesh 9:49, 12 July 2012 (EST)

Here we go. Started with full shotgun clip, faded music, switched rocket jump to warehouse, cut fade time in half, bazooka now in loadout A, tried to show difference in jump forces. I was jumping in 2fort to remove the ceiling cap from the warehouse. There's not really much of a height difference in the rocket jumps, but the difference IS more obvious in the angled jumps. Oh, and Friendly changed his name to Engineer. Less social, more accurate.

LINK: http://youtu.be/19ohuDdAfRM Gilgamesh 13:15, 12 July 2012 (EST) (Thanks for all the help!)

I don't see any major problems. Things that I don't think really need to be fixed, but should be kept in mind for next time:

• Friendly Engineer is social and accurate. Most likely you were having trouble with the space in his name. Just do this to create a bot with spaces in its name: bot -team *team* -class *class* -name "*name1* *name2*"
• The second to last clip, in which you grab ammo from an ammo box, seems to have a low volume compared to the other clips.
• Music is a bit botched at the end.

None of these are really that big a deal, and I'd say this video is acceptable. If you want to redo these things, that's fine too (I commend you), but I don't think you have to. Mr. Vinderack, not as sober as you...thin..yah... 10:43, 12 July 2012 (PDT)

Sound issues are relatively easy to fix - I'll check on these. I watched another video with a dispenser, and the dispenser was built by "Engineer," so I went with that.

Thanks for reviewing these for me! I'm just waiting for Wind's approval. Gilgamesh 15:54, 12 July 2012 (EST)

What Vinderack said. The volume of the clip needs to be fixed, the other things are nice-to-have's if you can — Wind 22:24, 13 July 2012 (PDT)

Well, this is it. Should be the final version. I watched several different versions of the low volume clip and couldn't really tell the difference, so I simply upped the volume for that clip. Also, at the end, I nixed the music fade - it now transitions directly to the "end" sound.

Link: http://youtu.be/goUTrsRrXq4

Gilgamesh 7:21, 15 July 2012 (EST)

I just noticed that unlike the other rocket-jumping clips, the single-rocket rocket-jumping clip uses the split-screen HUD even though it's not a split-screen clip. Should have noticed this earlier, sorry... Also, the ending sound is still not really good. The sound ending of the previous version was better, I think (not sure since the video has been removed now) — Wind 10:27, 15 July 2012 (PDT)

No problem - already had another single jump clip, just in case. And by "sound is bad," what specifically is the problem? On the earlier clip, I had it fade at the end. On this one, I removed that. Should the music end, and then the "end" sound play, or should I overlay the "end" sound with the end of the music? Gilgamesh 16:32, 15 July 2012 (EST)

There's a sudden jump in the music just before the final "tchak" sound plays. Check out the end of already-published demos and the difference should be pretty clear — Wind 13:52, 15 July 2012 (PDT)

This should be better - got rid of the skip. Kept the volume up on that one iffy clip, too, and changed to rocket jump normal HUD.

LINK: http://youtu.be/5D2xnrQ2gXY

Thanks for putting up with all these sound issues... Gilgamesh 18:10, 15 July 2012 (EST)

Wow, we all forgot airblast. You should show a reflect+reflect kill clip. Darkid (|) 15:58, 15 July 2012 (PDT)

Yeesh. Knew I'd missed something. This is the demo video that wouldn't die. I'll try to have the new new new new new new version up by the end of today. Either today, or tomorrow morning. Gilgamesh 9:26, 16 July 2012 (EST)

• Yawn* It's late, and I'm tired. New version, showing rocket kill: http://youtu.be/B8rcHqSMkwY

All the same changes - no split HUD, volume/end tweaks, the works. Thanks for remembering this, Darkid. I knew there was something missing... Gilgamesh 23:19, 16 July 2012 (EST)

You're too close to the Pyro during the first rocket reflection, and as a result you get airblasted and that makes you go much farther than you would in the usual case. Make sure there is sufficient distance so that you don't get airblasted. Is all, thanks~ — Wind 00:46, 17 July 2012 (PDT)

That silly pyro, knew he was laughing at me behind the mask. I'll get him this time. I'll be gone today, but tomorrow or this evening, I should have no trouble recording another clip. Gilgamesh 7:44, 17 July 2012 (EST)

Hey, a question. Would it be better to show the single reflect kill, or do single-double-triple? I have clips of each - single, pyro wins, double, pyro and soldier both die, triple, pyro dies with injured soldier. Just the single, or all three - the clips are good. Gilgamesh 11:41, 18 July 2012 (EST)

Note: I had two videos up earlier. I watched both of them, and something went wrong with the fade effects. Fixing today. Gilgamesh 8:46, 19 July 2012 (EST)

I think it'd be pretty interesting to see multiple rocket reflections, if only to show that it can be done. — Wind 12:12, 19 July 2012 (PDT)

UPDATE: Multiple reflects aren't possible - if they are, they're WAY out of my league, or have to be under very unusual circumstances. Here's the new clip - with all three kinds of reflects attempted. Singles are easy, but the pyro doesn't fare well in 2 or 3 reflect attempts. I also fixed the "Friendly Engineer" bug.

• Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuSXFEAMPLo

With any luck, this should be the finished version. Gilgamesh 20:35, 19 July 2012 (EST)

Sorry, but the kill screen looks... odd... there's no text in the thing at the top that says you can take a screenshot, and there's no bubble saying who killed you. Why is that? That's the only flaw though — Wind 14:05, 20 July 2012 (PDT)

This is very odd. My kill I.D. seems to be disabled, and my chat view sporadically toggles off. I'm trying to fix, will upload correct clip as soon as the error is gone. Gilgamesh 10:48, 21 July 2012 (EST)

Well, it's fixed. I only had to completely re-install the game to do it...and I still don't know what was going on.

• However, I have a link: http://youtu.be/dF7XZ6Zc2Y4

It now says "Pyro." Gilgamesh 15:18, 21 July 2012 (EST)

All good, please upload final video and .dem's~ — Wind 23:07, 21 July 2012 (PDT)

Probably a stupid question - where would you like me to upload to? It says MediaFire on the tutorials page. Also, how would I create the .dem file? I used FRAPS for recording, and ran it through a compressor and editor. (This is my official "n00b" moment.) Gilgamesh 11:40, 22 July 2012 (EST)

Mediafire is fire. At this point, you can't get the .dem files; the idea is that you record those and FRAPS the playback. — Armisael (T | C) 08:43, 22 July 2012 (PDT)

I think it's time to let someone else deal with this (No offense Gilgamesh) rZ 12:48, 22 July 2012 (PDT)

Given that it's already done, that would be rather silly. — Armisael (T | C) 12:49, 22 July 2012 (PDT)

I beg to differ, the video is spectacularly low resolution. You can't expect me to play the 1080p version of the video with this DSL. rZ 12:55, 22 July 2012 (PDT)

Too late for .dems (check Wind's talk page, already covered). As for the file type, what encoding did you use? Is it lossless, lossy, etc? .wmv is generally not a great file type, and I'm curious now as to what you used to record these clips... What was it? Mr. Vinderack, not as sober as you...thin..yah... 13:06, 23 July 2012 (PDT)

Just watched the video, and...well, the resolution doesn't seem to be correct. Lines on the sides of the video, and generally just small. I may be wrong, though...; it did upload to YouTube seemingly fine. Mr. Vinderack, not as sober as you...thin..yah... 13:11, 23 July 2012 (PDT)

EDIT: Helping out Gilgamesh regarding codecs, rendering, and related stuff. Mr. Vinderack, not as sober as you...thin..yah... 14:37, 23 July 2012 (PDT)

Well, Vinderack straightened me out, big time. It's much better now. I just need to resolve a small rendering difficulty, and done. Gilgamesh 17:11, 23 July 2012 (PDT)

• Here's the same video from earlier, using the better codec: http://youtu.be/qtICc3G-178

• And here's the download link: http://www.adrive.com/public/Xevvuf/Beggar's Bazooka.avi

Next time I try one of these, I'll be ready - and use Source Recorder.

Gilgamesh 16:06, 24 July 2012 (PDT)

All good, thanks, and congrats on the first demo~ (Also the real link is http://www.adrive.com/public/Xevvuf/Beggar%27s%20Bazooka.avi — Wind 14:21, 26 July 2012 (PDT)

Atomizer

How we forget this? Hinaomi (talk) - (contributions) 20:35, 17 July 2012 (PDT)

Well, at least it's circular and it's the default crosshair color. It's just a little big. Not worth redoing the demo over, but something for Mr. Vinderack to fix in future demonstrations. — Wind 20:42, 17 July 2012 (PDT)

I'm on it! Boynedmaster

Uh...on what? There's nothing to be done, read above... I would prefer my demonstration to be kept, and either way if the crosshair really is that big a problem I can just re-render with the correct crosshair. No need to make a new video. Mr. Vinderack, not as sober as you...thin..yah... 21:43, 18 July 2012 (PDT)

EDIT: Talked to Boyned and explained to him the circumstances. He said he'll just do Balloonicorn. Mr. Vinderack, not as sober as you...thin..yah... 14:45, 19 July 2012 (PDT)

Bat

The melee makeover missed this (or it's a matter of the page wasn't updated, since the bat demo is on the project page) --Org 17:17, 17 July 2012 (PDT)

Just needed to be added to the dictionary. — Armisael (T | C) 18:20, 17 July 2012 (PDT)

Cozy Camper

 Reserved by Armisael

http://youtu.be/9r4kyNXgpr0

Two questions. Should I show that the knockback resistance doesn't apply to airblast? How long should the regen clip last (I don't think anyone wants to watch over a minute and a half of health regen)? — Armisael (T | C) 12:26, 15 July 2012 (PDT)

More transition time on pretty much everything please :3 Yes, you should show an airblast, whether it applies or not, because it's a rather important use case of any "reduces knock back" weapon. You can probably get away with showing the health regen up to 63 HP (50% health) or so if it's the last clip — Wind 13:52, 15 July 2012 (PDT)

http://youtu.be/ZW-O_46rD08 — Armisael (T | C) 15:44, 15 July 2012 (PDT)

Is good, please upload~ — Wind 00:46, 17 July 2012 (PDT)

Detonator

 Reserved by Akuago220

Needs to be redone to:

• Show the world impact explosion does nothing to enemies
• Destroys sticky bombs

--Org 02:54, 7 July 2012 (PDT)

Hopefully this will do it. Download it here. --Akuago220, The Jungle Expeditioner 10:58, 8 July 2012 (PDT)

Watch the medic burn, then get ammo. Split up spy kill into different clip. Use normal positions for airblast; why weren't the flares damaging you? If possible, make the medic kill more obviously due to afterburn. Darkid (|) 11:32, 8 July 2012 (PDT)

Indeed, watch until the afterburn ends before moving to get the ammo. No need to split up spy kill imo, but flare jumping can indeed be made into its own clip if you want, but it's also fine as it is right now in the first clip. The sticky bomb part is unclear, as it looks like you're firing directly at the sticky bomb, and that it's the collision of the flare projectile with the sticky bomb that destroys it. Aim a little higher so that it's clear that it's the explosion that kills the sticky bomb, and that a direct hti is not necessary. Darkid: the flares were not damaging him because he was making them explode before they could go back completely. That's a good thing to show, and it is easier to see when there's no wooden barrier in the way, so the positions are fine here — Wind 12:41, 8 July 2012 (PDT)

Well, this should do it this time. Decided to split the detonator-jumping to its own clip for the sake of less frustration on me, anyway. Download it here. --Akuago220, The Jungle Expeditioner 15:19, 9 July 2012 (PDT)

Hud blinked for a moment near 0:54~0:56. Rendering error perhaps? hud_reloadscheme during the demo? Also, missed the first jump to get out of the wooden barrier. Rest of the demo is good~ — Wind 20:35, 9 July 2012 (PDT)

Sorry for the wait; I found out why I couldn't load a map by myself; had to opt out of Steam beta. Anyway, this should hopefully do it. Download it here. --Akuago220, The Jungle Expeditioner 06:43, 15 July 2012 (PDT)

Is good, thanks~ — Wind 10:27, 15 July 2012 (PDT)

Equalizer

Where's the CRITS? Hinaomi (talk) - (contributions) 05:05, 11 July 2012 (PDT)

http://youtu.be/qCgiKeQp6KQ — Armisael (T | C) 15:44, 11 July 2012 (PDT)

Sorry but I think we should show the crits damage at all heath (so we spawn more bots) Hinaomi (talk) - (contributions) 16:44, 11 July 2012 (PDT)

Indeed, since this one has damage scaling with health, perhaps crit damage should be demonstrated for multiple healths. Maybe do two 3-kill clips, one with crits and one without? Dunno. — Wind 18:54, 11 July 2012 (PDT)

http://youtu.be/GtS10vpYfAQ — Armisael (T | C) 14:04, 12 July 2012 (PDT)

Is good, please upload~ — Wind 22:24, 13 July 2012 (PDT)

Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol

 Reserved by Akuago220

I'll take a crack at this. --Akuago220, The Jungle Expeditioner 16:58, 27 June 2012 (PDT)

See above — Wind 17:30, 27 June 2012 (PDT)

And there we have it. Download it here. --Akuago220, The Jungle Expeditioner 12:37, 29 June 2012 (PDT)

Is good, but should also show whether the crits stay on if you switch weapons, much like the Cleaner's Carbine — Wind 19:03, 29 June 2012 (PDT)

Wind, the Pocket Pistol does NOT have that 3-second kill attribute the Carbine does. That crit portion was to fill the whole ""Wait 2 seconds, still staring at the Medic but this time with your weapon glowing, then kill the medic, still holding ⇧ Shift" criteria (unless you can point me where in those instructions, I now have to switch weapons after crit-killing the Medic). --Akuago220, The Jungle Expeditioner 19:45, 29 June 2012 (PDT)

Derp, that's what I get for checking the Carbine's attributes and then looking at the next one and assuming it's a clone of it but for the Scout. But those crit instructions are for melee weapons only (that's why they are under the "Melee makeover" section under the list that says "The procedure is slightly different" :3 For non-melee weapons, just use the regular procedure, no crits or extra staring periods or anything — Wind 19:53, 29 June 2012 (PDT)

There we go, fixed. Download it here. --Akuago220, The Jungle Expeditioner 06:17, 30 June 2012 (PDT)

Looks to me like there are some random crits (although the damage doesn't change, and those should be disabled using the cfg, weird) Pigophone 06:33, 30 June 2012 (PDT)

It's a common glitch in SrcDemo, and as far as I'm aware of, there's no way around it. --Akuago220, The Jungle Expeditioner 07:18, 30 June 2012 (PDT)

You probably mean source recorder, as all srcdemo2 does is record data from that. Can you try re-recording and see if it still happens? If it does, can you upload the .dem file? Does it happen during demo playback or demo rendering? Otherwise, you could replace the crit sounds in the game files to make them disappear — Wind 13:19, 30 June 2012 (PDT)

When I play it back, there are no crit sounds emitting. After I render it, then I hear crit sounds in the wav file. Render this yourself and see what I mean. --Akuago220, The Jungle Expeditioner 14:50, 30 June 2012 (PDT)

Then use fraps to record the audio and overlay that onto the srcdemo2 clip. — Armisael (T | C) 14:51, 30 June 2012 (PDT)

It didn't do crit sounds for me when rendering. Try clearing your sound cache maybe, by typing snd_rebuildaudiocache in the console. Or you can use Armisael's workaround too — Wind 15:13, 30 June 2012 (PDT)

They didn't occur when rendering, they were heard after they rendered. In any case, using that snd command fixed it up after all. Download it here. --Akuago220, The Jungle Expeditioner 19:07, 30 June 2012 (PDT)

Yes, that's what I meant, since the game has no sound when it's rendering. Anyway, video is good, thanks~ — Wind 22:52, 30 June 2012 (PDT)

I watched the video and read some feedback on YouTube and one user pointed out that the following isn't demonstrated:

• There is no comparison for fall damage with the Pistol and the Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol. Meaning, viewers don't know if the Scout would take fall damage with the regular Pistol equipped if a player was to fall from that distance.
• The HP difference isn't demonstrated at all.
• This one is my recommendation but when demonstrating the fire vulnerability difference, rather than killing both Scouts, let them both live to demonstrate the vulnerability and the HP differences after surviving afterburn.

Just some feedback I've seen and would like to leave for discussion. -- ReadyAimFire 08:22, 3 July 2012 (PDT)

I agree that this would be nice to have, and while we're at it, doing the fall damage comparison from the top of Watchtower, like in the Mantreads demo. This being said, I did accept this demo as such so I can't blame Akuago for the lack of those things, but yeah >: Sorry — Wind 21:41, 3 July 2012 (PDT)

No worries. We'll get 'em next time. -- ReadyAimFire 16:26, 4 July 2012 (PDT)

http://youtu.be/4cezyN6TrCo — Armisael (T | C) 19:26, 9 July 2012 (PDT)

There are no problems with this demonstrations, but I would like to allow a week or so in case Akuago wants to redo the demonstration himself instead — Wind 20:35, 9 July 2012 (PDT)

Well alright then, please upload~ — Wind 18:57, 17 July 2012 (PDT)

Scorch Shot

The cardboard soldier target was not shot. This is particularly important to demonstrate as we need to show how the shot arcs over a distance. I think. TFHK 10:02, 12 July 2012 (PDT)

Well the arc is kind of demonstrated in each shot since it is very strong, so I don't think it is worth redoing, especially since this first clip is very hard to do — Wind 22:24, 13 July 2012 (PDT)

At 0:21 it plays the crit sound effect and it doesn't show that the Scorch Shot can destroy stickies, so it might need to be redone anyway. Balladofwindfishes 18:58, 15 July 2012 (PDT)

http://youtu.be/nmsMZpFj5J0 — Armisael (T | C) 18:42, 18 July 2012 (PDT)

Doesn't show a death from the explosion >: Also doesn't show the arc. If this is to be redone then it better be shown properly this time~

http://youtu.be/Q7IKY2KImq0 — Armisael (T | C) 14:54, 19 July 2012 (PDT)

Eeeeh I wish it had just one more shot so that it wouldn't run out of ammo... but I guess that's the way it has to be. Please upload~ — Wind 14:05, 20 July 2012 (PDT)

Back Scratcher

 No special changes. — Wind 20:11, 10 July 2012 (PDT)

 Reserved by Karma Charger

http://youtu.be/oH8mI2HAYvU Karmacharger 12:52 , 7/14/2012 (PDT)

Great, asides from one thing:

• The Dispenser clip...I don't know how many people willl have the patience to watch through the whole thing. I fiercely recommend using a level three Dispenser, because that was almost tedious.

Asides from that, I didn't catch anything. Mr. Vinderack, not as sober as you...thin..yah... 10:02, 13 July 2012 (PDT)

I don't think so, lv 1 dispenser is showing how slow when heal with with lowest heal rate. Hinaomi (talk) - (contributions) 10:22, 13 July 2012 (PDT)

That's definitely true, but on YouTube the attention span is tiny. I commend Karma for actually going through with this, but unfortunately I don't think his work will be appreciated by very many YouTubers... Mr. Vinderack, not as sober as you...thin..yah... 10:27, 13 July 2012 (PDT)

It's at the end of the video, so viewers who get bored can just stop watching. Also, you'd be surprised by how much commenters enjoy these sorts of things. Go look at the current backscratcher demo (which has the same clip). — Armisael (T | C) 10:32, 13 July 2012 (PDT)

Fair enough. My only concern now is for the viewers who do not realize it is the last clip, but I guess they can just power through it if they get bored. xD. Mr. Vinderack, not as sober as you...thin..yah... 11:31, 13 July 2012 (PDT)

It's that way already, it can be that way again. However please make sure both views look exactly the same, since that is possible here; simply make the dispenser and use setpos to position yourself at the same position on both clips, and move forward as much as possible towards the dispenser (without changing aim). That way you have exactly the same view, and it looks better~ It's not a very big deal here because the point get across anyway, but if you can do it then why not — Wind 22:24, 13 July 2012 (PDT)

http://youtu.be/2hADwmYmg2U Karmacharger 10:32 , 7/15/2012 (PDT)

That's not really what I asked about the dispensers but I guess the two clips are similar enough now. Please upload~ — Wind 10:27, 15 July 2012 (PDT)

hmm , alright Now it should be similar , anyway it's not easy to do both as SAME :( Karmacharger 1:37 , 7/16/2012 (PDT)

What Wind is saying is to use the console commands getpos and setpos;setang. Using getpos will produce a line of code that will teleport you to the exact same place looking in the exact same direction you were when you used getpos. This code is referred to as setpos;setang and is what Wind is telling you to use. Mr. Vinderack, not as sober as you...thin..yah... 10:03, 16 July 2012 (PDT)

Yeah i did Karmacharger 6:20 , 7/17/2012 (PDT)

If you put yourself at the same starting position, then walk all the way to the dispenser until you can't move forward, then you will be in the exact same spot. If you didn't touch the mouse during that time, then you will also be looking at the exact same thing. So:

• Put a dispenser (here)
• Walk against it
• Walk back a little
• Do getpos
• Start recording clip 1
• Walk towards dispenser until you cannot move anymore
• Wait til end of clip
• End recording
• Switch inventory
• Do setpos with the coordinates from earlier
• Start recording clip 2
• Walk towards dispenser until you cannot move anymore
• Wait til end of clip
• End recording

During all of this, never ever touch the mouse. This way, the two clips will be exactly the same. Anyway, like I said, the current video is similar enough, so you don't need to do it again. I just made this list to give yo uthe technique to use in other demonstrations later. Upload what you have now and that will be good~ Thanks. — Wind 00:46, 17 July 2012 (PDT)

http://www.mediafire.com/?hu47ify7l1yofu2 okey next time i will use the list info you give me Karmacharger 10:23 , 7/17/2012 (PDT)

Thanks~ — Wind 18:52, 17 July 2012 (PDT)

Fire Axe

 No special changes. — Wind 20:11, 10 July 2012 (PDT)

 Reserved by Armisael

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nabghhhE4oQ&feature=youtu.be Here is mine --Mellotaku, The Sorcerous Shapeshifter 20:26, 10 July 2012 (PDT)

The audio is really out of sync, and the in-game sound is extremely hard to hear over the music. Mr. Vinderack, not as sober as you...thin..yah... 10:01, 11 July 2012 (PDT)

My videos have begun to do that lately, I may need to switch to Source Demo --Mellotaku, The Sorcerous Shapeshifter 12:06, 11 July 2012 (PDT)

I definitely recommend switching over to Source Recorder and SrcDemo2. The quality is a thousand times better. On a side note, I'm going to make a version of this with Source Filmmaker just for fun. I'll post it here, perhaps for future reference, but if not, it'll just be a cool video to see. Mr. Vinderack, not as sober as you...thin..yah... 12:11, 11 July 2012 (PDT)

What Vinderack said. Those are the only flaws though; the framerate could be better but is acceptable — Wind 18:54, 11 July 2012 (PDT)

http://youtu.be/QRmORoQQWzs — Armisael (T | C) 14:52, 13 July 2012 (PDT)

I see nothing wrong with it. Mr. Vinderack, not as sober as you...thin..yah... 17:35, 13 July 2012 (PDT)

That's wonderful. (You don't need to comment on every video). — Armisael (T | C) 17:38, 13 July 2012 (PDT)

Is good, please upload~ — Wind 22:24, 13 July 2012 (PDT)

Maul

 No special changes. — Wind 20:11, 10 July 2012 (PDT)

Had this saved up for quite a while, now. Download it here. --Akuago220, The Jungle Expeditioner 20:20, 10 July 2012 (PDT)

Is good, thanks~ — Wind 20:24, 10 July 2012 (PDT)

I really hate to be the one to do this, but...

• The first hit on the soldier has the audio of a crit.
• Right when you activate and deactivate the crit boost, the chat menu blinks briefly.
• The split-screen HUD isn't used for the split-screen phrase.

If you guys already settled something, sorry. But in case you really did miss this stuff, that's why I pointed it out. Mr. Vinderack, not as sober as you...thin..yah... 10:10, 11 July 2012 (PDT)

I did hear that crit but it seems it's happening more often for pretty much everyone so I just ignored it >: But if you can fix it then do fix it. The chat menu is a good catch, not a major issue but also something to fix if possible. Using the split-screen HUD is not a requirement in split-screen clips that don't involve the player's health. — Wind 18:54, 11 July 2012 (PDT)

Okay, I see. I think I know the crit problem though. When rendering, it is possible to have tf_weapon_criticals on 1 (and other anti-attributes of weaponref.cfg, such as sv_cheats on 0, for that matter) and have random crit audio be recorded as the render occurs. Even if the demo itself had no crits, they can still be generated during rendering due to the way they are created. This is an easy fix: Simply re-record the audio and make sure tf_weapon_criticals is on 0. Personally, I like to use exec weaponref every single time I render just to be safe. As for the chat menu, I don't know what it is, but I think it's probably a rendering problem as well. Mr. Vinderack, not as sober as you...thin..yah... 19:01, 11 July 2012 (PDT)

Also, craft text in the backpack. — Armisael (T | C) 19:27, 11 July 2012 (PDT)

Well, nice to now know the days of needing just one approval have all but faded to memory and that anyone can be a judge and turn down a video. A simple addition of a judging section stating that even if one person says yes, any random user can now judge a demonstration for quality would be too hard to do for future reference & notification (it's done for whenever multiple people make a demonstration for a single weapon; it seems like the same method's being incorporated when it's just one user making a demonstration)? Just saying. /rant Here's the revised version. Download it here. --Akuago220, The Jungle Expeditioner 12:20, 12 July 2012 (PDT)

Rant: Sorry...just trying to make things better for the overall project (and for its viewers). :(

Video: Still does the weird chat menu blink thing, but I don't really think it's necessary to have to redo, mainly because it doesn't look like a problem that can be easily identified. Mr. Vinderack, not as sober as you...thin..yah... 12:28, 12 July 2012 (PDT)

You just need my approval, I'd consider the others to be early-reviewers that point out some flaws that I may point out as well but do it before I get a chance to (so you can fix it faster) or provide suggestions. For those purposes, such reviews are valuable, but they are not final nor required to act upon >:

Anyway, for the video, no problems here but the split-screen for the Sapper clip shown in the Homewrecker demo above is a good idea I think, so may want to do the same for consistency between the two weapons since they're reskins of one another. Yes, I know, changing requirements are bad. but I didn't predict this change because I didn't think of showing it that way >: — Wind 22:24, 13 July 2012 (PDT)

I am so sorry Akuago. D: Mr. Vinderack, not as sober as you...thin..yah... 23:14, 13 July 2012 (PDT)

Well, hopefully this will keep the "consistency" of the Homewrecker demonstration. Download it here. --Akuago220, The Jungle Expeditioner 14:58, 15 July 2012 (PDT)

That's good, but that annoying chat window is still there. However, since the two times where it appears are times when you are standing still, I think you can get away with copying the few next good frames (without the chat) that follow the bad frames (with the chat), or to stretch those few next frames to cover up the region where the chat is shown. Can you give it a shot? If not, then upload what you have now and that'll do. Thanks~ — Wind 00:46, 17 July 2012 (PDT)

I normally mask it with this problem via covering only what's necessary, but that's only when there was nothing on that side. In the case of the Maul however, well, here's my attempt at covering it up with complete, previous frames. Hopefully it's mostly unnoticed. If not, the previous version of the demonstration is still available. But if so, download this version here. --Akuago220, The Jungle Expeditioner 10:44, 17 July 2012 (PDT)

Most excellent, it's like that chat window was never there. Please upload the covered-up version, thanks~ — Wind 18:52, 17 July 2012 (PDT)

Powerjack

 Put the Sniper away from the Medic on the right side of the map, so that the crit hit on the Medic is more isolated from the others. The Medic should be killed last with the crit, not before the Sniper. — Wind 20:11, 10 July 2012 (PDT)

http://youtu.be/XOFgpdtur9k — Armisael (T | C) 02:49, 11 July 2012 (PDT)

For the last clip, can you find a more stock-ish weapon for this? Otherwise, is good — Wind 18:54, 11 July 2012 (PDT)

(Turns out there is no such thing) Is good then, please upload~ — Wind 22:24, 13 July 2012 (PDT)

Third Degree

 Need to show crit on both an isolated bot (Medic or not), and on a chain. — Wind 20:11, 10 July 2012 (PDT)

 Reserved by Armisael

http://youtu.be/HZ2wdS5p6bM — Armisael (T | C) 14:51, 11 July 2012 (PDT)

The proper hit sound is missing in the first clip >: Rest is good — Wind 18:54, 11 July 2012 (PDT)

 Question Is the Medic die-no-damage-to-target always the case, or is it an edge case with that Y configuration? --Org 22:26, 12 July 2012 (PDT)

Pyrovision Goggles

 Reserved by KarmaCharger

Perhaps this misc. item could use a demonstration to show the changes it makes to map textures, voices, gibs, pickups, and the ability to see the Rainblower and Lollichop. -- ReadyAimFire 07:37, 2 July 2012 (PDT)

Is possible — Wind 11:48, 2 July 2012 (PDT)

Perhaps the various miscs that give assists in pyroland should be folded into this demo? — Armisael (T | C) 05:31, 8 July 2012 (PDT)

I guess that may be a good idea, although it would mean that we need to revisit this demo every time they add a new item with those characteristics, which may or may not happen frequently — Wind 12:41, 8 July 2012 (PDT)

Well i think i have a plan in it , let me give it a try. Karmacharger 09:32 , 7/8/2012 (PDT)

should i demonstration this with the map as pyroland texture? Karmacharger 06:49 , 7/9/2012 (PDT)

On and off through split-screen, probably. Not sure how though, try something and we'll see~ — Wind 19:17, 8 July 2012 (PDT)

i may take about 2 days to do this , because it's too many clips need to record. So the scout - spy third-person view clip i have to record it without .dem because when i play the .dem file it's won't show the goggle model or hats. but others clip will be used with srcdemo2. Karmacharger 01:41 , 7/10/2012 (PDT)

Hats that aren't showing up in demos are almost certainly set to "loadondemand" "1" in the schema. You'll need to change that to a 0 to get those hats to show up. — Armisael (T | C) 10:47, 9 July 2012 (PDT)

if yes , then i just lost the .dem file because i seen it's won't show the model so i just deleted them , wind can it be accept without the first scout - spy third-person .dem? Karmacharger 03:06 , 7/10/2012 (PDT)

It's fine to not have .dem's for this, it's not a lot of motion and not very hard to re-act if needed. But if you can use srcdemo2 with Armisael's fix, then use it — Wind 20:35, 9 July 2012 (PDT)

Heres the video. Not really sure this is the best way to do it , well all clips is without .dem as you said it's fine. Karmacharger 01:21 , 7/13/2012 (PDT)

I don't think having a demonstration for every single weapon is necessary - I think you should only show what has changed, e.g. gibs, fire particles, player sounds, materials, sprite changes (e.g. grass - the map might need to be modified to show this). For player sounds, not all classes need to be shown, its obvious that it applies to all classes. Finally, on a side note, your spy backstab animation didn't work. Pigophone 00:19, 13 July 2012 (PDT)

but i still have to wait for wind's reply. Karmacharger 03:39 , 7/13/2012 (PDT)

That is some very good work on the synchronization, making sure that the left clip's sound doesn't overlap with the second clip's sound. Some things:

• At the end of the Demo clip at 4:16, the left clip goes to black before the right clip goes to black.
• In the Sniper clip, on the left you didn't rezoom after shooting, but on the right you rezoomed.
• Missed two pistol shots in the left clip of the Spy demo, and one on the right. Don't show the backstab animation thing by walking back and forth, this is unecessary (this is not a how-the-knife-works demo). Just backstab the pyro~
• Re-enable critical hits for both spy clips, otherwise the backstab animation doesn't work (knife swings horizontally)
• Demo sound comparison clip on the right is really not centered
• Camera moves during sound comparison clip of the medic, on the left. Medic is also not centered in that clip
• Add a "map exploration" clip where you have the viewmodel and the HUD hidden (cl_drawhud 0, r_drawviewmodel 0), and look around the map and check out objects of interest that look different like the car tires, the cart, the crates, the wooden sign, etc. Doing it as a split-screen may be hard if you have to walk around at exactly the same time, so if it's too difficult then maybe it could just be a sequence of short clips where you stare at one spot for 2 seconds or so and then next clip for the next spot, and so on.
• Lastly, please reorder the clips so that they are in this order:
  • Scout backpack view
  • Scout thirdperson world view
  • Split-screen map exploration clip
  • All 3 health pack comparison clips
  • All 3 ammo box comparison clips
  • Scout killing clip
  • Scout voice comparison clip
  • Soldier backpack view
  • Soldier thirdperson world view
  • Soldier killing clip
  • Soldier voice comparison clip
  • Pyro backpack view
  • Pyro thirdperson world view
  • Pyro killing clip
  • Pyro voice comparison clip
  • etc.

This ensures that the viewer can see all the important detail as soon as possible with the scout, and then if they don't want to see it for all other classes then they can close the video and they wouldn't have missed anything important.

Good work on doing all of those clips, that is quite a lot of them. Thanks~ — Wind 22:24, 13 July 2012 (PDT)

Everythings Fixed , The map exploration clip is exactly same time Karmacharger 10:12 , 7/19/2012 (PDT)

I don't know how you did that but that first clip is perfect. The Heavy clip is a bit desynchronized (long time between the moment the left heavy stops firing his shotgun and the right one starts, short time between the moment the right heavy stops firing his shotgun and the left heavy starts fisting the demoman, long time between the moment the left heavy stops fisting the demoman and the right one starts), so you may have to redo the clips for the Heavy. There is a second of no-sound at 8:57, need to fix this~ And lastly, it seems to me that the sound of the clips on the right are always a little quieter than the ones on the left. If that's not normal, make sure to set their volume to the same value. If it's normal, then don't change them, is good. That's all~ — Wind 12:12, 19 July 2012 (PDT)

Everythings is fixed http://youtu.be/Hg48uAfycjg the video is being uploading it's may take a little longer , for the vol they are same value i didn't touch anything in the vol settings , also the map exploration i was render the pyroland clip first , then quit tf2 and take off the mtp.cfg and play the demo again so the map goes original that's how it be :) Karmacharger 3:34 , 7/21/2012 (PDT)

All good, please upload~ Thanks for all of these, and good luck uploading the .dem files because that's a lot of them

hmm you said "It's fine to not have .dem's for this" so i just did everythings with fraps without .dem file will you mind if without .dem? but if it's need to be redone next time i can do everythings again. Heres the video file mediafile won't let me upload large then 200 mbs so i have to upload to other site. Karmacharger 12:58 , 7/21/2012 (PDT)

FileFactory caps the download speed at 50 kb/s, so I really recommend using something like Google Drive. In all my search for a good file-hosting service for bigger files, it was the only one that really worked (and didn't have a download speed cap). Google Drive downloads are usually 1-3 mb/s, so I really would urge you to look into the service. Also, it's free with no premium upgrades or anything similar. Mr. Vinderack, not as sober as you...thin..yah... 09:55, 21 July 2012 (PDT)

That or use split archives on sites that don't have a concurrent download limit. I really wish I could offer an unrestricted video hosting service but my server really doesn't have the storage space for this, which is why it only stores .dem files. Sorry >: — Wind 23:07, 21 July 2012 (PDT)

Uploaded Part One Part Two. Karmacharger 7:30 , 7/22/2012 (PDT)

Thanks~ — Wind 14:21, 26 July 2012 (PDT)

Both links are part one. (Also, google drive doesn't have a cap, so I don't have to reassemble the file. Just saying.) — Armisael (T | C) 14:42, 26 July 2012 (PDT)

My Bad sorrry , part 2 here Karmacharger 6:20 , 7/27/2012 (PDT)

How to give yourself an item?

I heard that giving yourself an item doesn't work anymore even if you check "read only" in your game files. Is there a way to actually give yourself an item (without using the "itemtest" menu or map)? Xeoxer 09:54, 20 June 2012 (PDT)

Team_Fortress_Wiki:Weapon_Demonstration#Making_items_game.txt_actually_work — Armisael (T | C) 10:04, 20 June 2012 (PDT)

Incidentally, do we have a policy on this? Given that the demos generated using this technique aren't particularly useful for uploads. — Armisael (T | C) 06:29, 27 June 2012 (PDT)

Not sure, I guess they would be useful if you did the same items_game.txt replacements, but then that process may take longer than just redoing the clip from scratch — Wind 17:31, 27 June 2012 (PDT)

Why are the Flamethrower videos done this way?

This is more of a curiosity than anything, and it's probably been answered a million times before, but why is it in the flamethrower video, during the spy-check segment, they go across? Why not just flame it right there? I mean, you always see them go "left-to-right" when flaming the spy, when they can just click to flame. Just curious...--Uknownada 00:52, 20 July 2012 (PDT)

To emphasize that the flamethrower is firing (without killing the spy). If you just tap mouse1, it's hard to see the flamethrower effect, and if you hold, the spy tends to die. — Armisael (T | C) 02:49, 20 July 2012 (PDT)

I simply see it as a way to show that it's an effective tool to survey a larger-than-other-weapons-would-allow area for spies — Wind 14:05, 20 July 2012 (PDT)

How do you enable split screen for demonstrations?

Ctrl+F "split" on the project page — Wind 21:59, 2 July 2012 (PDT)

Well that only shows you what to do with the HUD. How about actually getting the split screen to work. I don't know this stuff because I'm new at making demonstrations — Ben10508 06:35, 3 July 2012 (PDT)

Record multiple times and put the shots together in a video editor. — Armisael (T | C) 07:04, 3 July 2012 (PDT)

Which video editor do you use? — Ben10508 07:34, 3 July 2012 (PDT)

That's up to personal preference. I use vegas 10, but any decent video editor will let you do splitscreens. — Armisael (T | C) 07:58, 3 July 2012 (PDT)

Can you put a download link for vegas 10? — Ben10508 08:20, 3 July 2012 (PDT)

It's not exactly free, but Sony Vegas — Wind 21:41, 3 July 2012 (PDT)

Is it the Seminar Series or can I also get Vegas Pro 11? Ben10508 08:14, 4 July 2012 (PDT)

Well, I was making a video using split screen but the split screen is not the kind in the weapon demonstrations because the ones in the demonstrations are full screen but mine have big black bars on the top and bottom of the video. Someone help me please? Ben10508 10:02, 4 July 2012 (PDT)

Sorry but that is pretty vague and I don't know what video editor you're using :( Please consult its manual and/or google first, otherwise describe the situation in detail here or in a help forum for your video editor or something. This page is not the best place for video editing help — Wind 20:41, 4 July 2012 (PDT)

Noted well, might as well not use split screen :P Ben10508 20:48, 4 July 2012 (PDT)

If you use Sony Vegas, you can use "Track Motion" on two separate layers of video, moving one to the far right, and the other to the far left. If you don't understand, look it up on YouTube. It's a great method, but hard to explain without a tutorial video. Mr. Vinderack 11:32, 6 July 2012 (PDT)

Thanks Ben10508 20:19, 6 July 2012 (PDT)

No problem. I forgot to mention that you'll probably have to crop your photos to fit as well. If you need any more help, just ask. Mr. Vinderack 18:26, 7 July 2012 (PDT)

The preceding discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.